PAE V Patch 2

[pie_at]

Soon patch 2 will be available for you!

After some days of testing and adapting some things, I can upload it.

Here are the changes/add-ons:

-) 2 important OOS errors fixed
-) Slingshooter: 50% vs archers, generally all 100% unit bonus changed to 50%
-) Archers: city defense 100% -> 50%
-) Warrior: city defense 200% -> 150%
-- Sea People should be more dangerous
-- less defended cities shall be conquered more easy
-) Savanna only 1 commerce (+0.4 health)
-) Animals -25% instead of -50% vs spear and skirmish
-) Amphibious attack (river) -50% instead of -75% (cause of AI)
-) Standard-Handicap of AI is noble again
-) Starting gold (depending on handicap)
-) Scenario properties: no aggressive AI anymore
-) Forest and Dense Forest doesn't deliver +1 food anymore
-) Python: doRangedStrike of AI (BTS mission function instead of the self coded function)
-) No +1 per city status (there are lots of bonuses)
-) On horse, camel (new) and elephant plots: always spawning animals (plotOwner = unitOwner)
-) Horses, camels and elephants can be conquered when domesticating tech has been researched
-) Promo: medic 4 possible with combat 3 now
-) Added maintainance of cults
-) Carthagians can found Phoenician religion
-) Added field of view (from BUG)
-) Companian dog doesn't have 3 promos anymore (unit selling exploit)
-) Archers +1% unit cost per unit (composite and reflex +2%)
-) Fixed: Germanians: Spearman -> Harii
-) Spartian Hoplite renamed to Homoioi
-) No warWearinessmodifier when city is a village and town
-) Unit: Sacred band gets loyalty promo again
-) Quarry can establish stone and marble (high chance)
-) Art: adapted size of ships a bit (scaled-down)
-) Snow and tundra -25% defense (as desert)
-) Bonus of specialist truncated:
-- Citizen: +1 commerce (only)
-- Freed citizen: +2 commerce (only)
-) Cheaper torture: 100 -> 80.
-) AI pays half torture cost
-) Flotsam should be immobile for the following turn (so that it can't be disbanded by the Barbarians at once)
-) Upgrade to cottage to hamlet: dense forests become normal forests
-) Galleys can see pirates now
-) Forge, bronze forge, brass forge: +1 health instead of +2
-) Barbarian animals get disbanded when moving in a Barbarian city
-) Rams don't get promos when created
-) Wonder Statue of Zeus becomes the shrine of the Greek religion
-) Formations: in cities too (adapted)
-- units don't lose their formation anymore when walking through cities
-) Formations: only for units without Fights on his own promotion
-) New Formation: Closed formation (for all infantry units with Drill 1)
-) Papyrus don't get obsolete
-) Limes (palisade und stone) added for scenario makers (momentary)
-) Trading post for extern resoucres added (instead of fortress)
-) Axewarrior ST 4 instead of 3, axeman ST 6 instead of 5
-) Plantation now 4 instead of 3 yield bonuses
-) For scenario makers:
-- TECH_VASENMALEREI is out and becomes to TECH_SALINEN
-- New in classical era: TECH_MANUFAKTUREN
-) New leaderhead: Parehu (Nubia)
-) New improvement: Villa Rustica (Latifundium) from Imperialism (about 200 BC)
-- buildable for Roman workers
-) Axemen: +25% city attack and +25% forest strength
-) Archers and skirmishers can't be transported by chariots anymore
-) Swamp and flood plains now -10% defense
-) PublicMaps updated
-) Current texts imported from online text tool

 

[Skav]

Cool ! Have to say the CPU turtling makes the game very annoying at high levels. Going back to designing my new huge map ... new topic coming soon

 

[Jojo_Fr]

Thank you very much for your work !

I specially wish the OSS problems will disappear. I doubt it will be possible because the mod is huge.

-) 2 important OOS errors fixed

Have you tryed Multiplayer game, with tcpip connexion ? Does it fully works now ? We can play multi ?

-) Added maintainance of cults

I dont think it is a good idea. On big map with some ressources, the cults who did not bring gold could because a real cripple. I think that limiting the cult maximum ressources bonus would be better. 20 ressources for exemple would be enough.

-) Archers +1% unit cost per unit (composite and reflex +2%)

I dont know if it is a good idea too, because you have need some archers to protect all your city just with one defensive unit. This kind of limitation could bring use to keep some warriors and obsolètes units, just to keep moral on cityes.

If you dont like the archer supremacy at early mid-game, just block arches from making any attack on units. They are just defensive and bombarding units, as in reality. I just wish the A.I could handle it if you do this.

-) Trading post for extern resoucres added (instead of fortress)

Nice idea.

-) Archers and skirmishers can't be transported by chariots anymore

Why doing that ? Chariots are used for that most of the time. I often use chariots just for transportation, i send them to front then go back for next units created.

 

[pie_at]

Skav: yes, do it

Jojo:

-) OOS, it seems so. But I can't promise it 100%. I tried in multiplayer. 50 turns with GrecoPersianWars. 20 turns with Diadochen. Without OOS. Before I had an OOS from the second turn on.

-) Maintainance of cults: yes, it will be less gold than gaining bonus but the more cities the more money you need. A strategic reason and some kind of limitation for big realms.

-) Archers +1% cost: again a kind of limitation for big realms. I think the game is already won, when a human player has the biggest land era than the others. So it gets more difficult. And big realms are very difficult to stand the test of time. everybody knows.

-) Archers and skirmishers in chariots: this is definetly a human exploit: move the chariot to the city, do range attack with the archers (cargo) and go back to a safe plot again. sorry for that, but I have too. If you need a stratetic reason: you can't shoot well in a moving chariot.

 

[stolenrays]

How come the Acropolis is a UU for the Greeks? There were other acropoli such as the Masada, Persepolis, etc.

 

[pie_at]

for Persians....

no, I think those cities were just founded on a good defensive position. The greeks had a fortified hill with holy temples next to the city as a acropolis. Like the Medieval castle.

 

[Horatius]

Acropolis simply means city or part of a city on a hill and the ancient greeks would easily use the word for any citadel, fortification on high ground. You're just thinking of the Acropolis of Athens.

 

[pie_at]

No, Athens is just the most famous one. I read also of acropoli of Thebes, Corinth and the one on Crete.

I don't know if it's good to give every city an "acropolis". It's just because, those "upper cities" should only be buildable when the city is on a hill. BUT this requirement is something BTS has not included.

Those "other" acropoli you mentioned are just citadels, I think.
Or just "upper fortresses" are used later in Roman eras or the big Dacian fortress.

 

[Horatius]

Those "other" acropoli you mentioned are just citadels, I think.
Or just "upper fortresses" are used later in Roman eras or the big Dacian fortress.

Apparently you can't read.

 

[pie_at]

No. Akropolis ist a Greek word. No one else mentioned the word akropolis for their own propose. Todays ancient archeologist give those "upper cities" of other tribes (Celts, Middle East, which besides are cities long AFTER the Greeks had their kind of acropolis) the same name because its naming USED BY the Greeks ONLY these times. Those upper "cities" - the capitol of Rome can also be called acropolis (do you know see the difference - is this a REAL acropolis or did the city just expand?!) -

If you don't trust me, please read some books.

It's the same with oppidum. Every CITY is an oppidum. Why? Because the Romans gave those bigger villages (mostly fortified) of nothern tribes this name. So, you can also say that for all - in Roman sight - Barbarian tribes, that are: Parthians, Scyths, Huns, Gauls, Germans, Iberians, and so on...


It's funny: I just looked into the wikipedia. Let me explain:

What I found about Acropolis:

The word acropolis literally means in Greek "upper city," and though associated primarily with the Greek cities Athens, Argos, Thebes, and Corinth (with its Acrocorinth), may be applied generically to all such citadels, including Rome, Jerusalem, Celtic Bratislava, many in Asia Minor, or even Castle Rock in Edinburgh. An example in Ireland is the Rock of Cashel. Acropolis is also the term used by archaeologists and historians to the urban Castro culture settlements located in Northwestern Iberian hilltops.

Primary Greek cities. Wow!
Rome ?!!?!? WTH? -> nothing more explained. I found in another source, that the capitol is called like that from modern archeologists. why not. pfffffft.
Jerusalem: where is the link to? who called what a acropolis? the hebrews?!?! where is the source?
Celtic Bratislava?!? -> no further infos ? why? I'd like to know more about this funny thing.
Asia Minor: Wow that's detailed! I am really hooked!
Castel Rock: WTH! that's great ancient stuff!

Great Stone Church in California, United States has been called the "American Acropolis

Amazing ancient finding! Great! So, those Americans had an Acropolis! Why not in BTS? Did they forgot something?

So, let's look to the entry "citadel":

8000 BC–600 AD: Greece
167–160 BC: oh! here it is about Jerusalem: the Hellenic garrison: who's Hellenic? The Hebrews? No.
3300–1300 BC: India: oh it's called a citadel. no acropolis. sorry.
500–1500 AD: Ottomans. uh. that's a bit late for ancient times. but it's Middle East. this is mentioned above.
1600–2000 AD: uh, later on... I stop here.


So please tell me a correct "akropolis" of another nation than Greek states. I wait. You must have reasons or proofs otherwise you wouldn't have mentioned that and otherwise you wouldn't be so positive about.

stolenrays: because you mention Masada and Persepolis. I am sure, those stratetic foundings came from Greek (Macedon) / Hellenistic influences. You know, Alexander conquered those cities. So it's definetly Hellenistic. But I don't want to give this UU to Macedonia too, if you think about that. It's difficult. Something special could be done: eg. if you have a Greek vassal, you can build the Acropolis in cities on a hill? This would be possible in Python. Do you think of something like that?

 

[Horatius]

Heh, why all that for such a simple thing. I have little interest in superficial discussions. After all, when you assume that the word is not greek because of this and that and you seem sure of yourself, you reveal a lot about your depth of understanding.

I was just responding to stolenrays and his question above: hey, man don't worry about it - any urban agglomeration on high ground can be called an acropolis.

Latin and Greek words are used in many different fields, of course, even if the specialists themselves don't know the languages.
Many archeologists and historians use the word acropolis according to ancient meaning or just thinking mainly of the Acropolis of Athens or just in some other slightly distorted way for their own use. Depends on their knowledge, background and purposes. That's typical. Choose your poison.

On the other hand, if you really want to know about how ancient greeks tended to use the word, then I already responded. A sentence is enough for such a matter.

So, I don't know why you wrote: "So please tell me a correct "akropolis" of another nation than Greek states." It seems you just assumed I don't know what I'm talking about, that you can't read proper english and you're just revealing your own idiocy unfortunately.

I have no particular need to reveal any of my knowledge which also granted me the highest grades when I was younger concerning the studies of greco-roman culture and languages, but to further clarify the matter (such a small matter...) to others:

- Acropolis, an ancient greek word, has two roots: acros means the furthest or highest point and polis, a complex word that can even mean the "state" or community of citizens, can be translated as city (I wont bother to italicize and stuff). Indeed, acre polis (in two words) in ancient greek is the same thing as acropolis. In short, and again, any settlement on high ground could be called an acropolis. Its a common word and there's nothing special about it.

The word actually just tended to be used to mention a strong fortification or at least a potential site for one. For example, I remember Polybius, while describing a Carthaginian camp in Italy (Hamilcar commanding, I believe), simply saying that there was a place neary that was an acropolis, meaning it could be used as a stronghold - although there was no construction there yet.

This is just an example from the top of my head and it's probably enough. I don't need to read what others say about "acropolis", what I know is from reading the texts in the actual language, so this ends up being trivial to me.

Its not a question if such and such cities should be called acropoleis or not (that's just silly) and I don't care how this and that modern specialist decided to use the word. I'm just trying to explain how ancient greeks would themselves use their word. Fairly simple.

It may be interesting for some people to know that actually the Athenians simply called polis (simply that in early times) what we now call "acropolis of athens". Thucydides takes the time to mention this in book 2. Because the community developed first from there. The entire concrete city, they called astu.

Astu is closer to the latin meaning of Urbs, urban city. Acropolis is simply Arx in latin: Arx was used for any strong fortress as well.
Now I ended up being a little pedantic myself (because I love everything related to greco-roman culture), but at least I know what I'm talking about and it should be clearer now.

One can take it as one wants to in this forum and, for the sake of your game, it matters little. Though, if a proper historian came to me for advice and ended up talking to me like you did then I would be concerned.
No more interest in continuing this silly discussion.

 

[Keinpferd]

The original question was: Why is the Acropolis a Unique Building for the Greeks?

It is hard for me to understand, how this question can lead to lengthy discussion like that.

Whom should the Acropolis suit as their UB better than the Greeks, then? The Apache? The Esquimaux?

The concept of a unique building in Civ has always been a little silly per se. The guys at Firaxis probably never meant it too seriously. Coffee house as a UB for Austria (in Civ V), I mean, really…

Very few of the UBs that ever appeared in the Civ games are actually unique in the strict sense. I can't think of any, right now.

That both Thucydides and Polybios call anything on a hill that looks like an Acropolis "Acropolis", doesn't come as a surprise, either.

Their use of the term Acropolis is by no smartassing means relevant for the benediction of a video game building to uniqueness level. We should cut out the reasoning and go by the intuitive, by the commonly shared mental image. Of course, you can call walled hilltop urban places citadel, kasbah, krepost and what not, but the thing with the columns and pediments and friezes that looks like the thing in Athens, yes, that's the one, that's an Acropolis!

The Wall of Gorgon is pretty much a "Limes". Serving the exact same purpose. Reminding of Hadrian's Wall. However, would that be a reason to take away the unique building Limes from the Romans?

And by the way, there is lovely new art for a veritable Roman Limes in the pipeline, which has exclusively been made for PAE. This will hopefully mitigate that sullen look in that eye…

 

[pie_at]

oh! shame on me, sorry Horatius! I thought you answered me with this:

Acropolis simply means city or part of a city on a hill and the ancient greeks would easily use the word for any citadel, fortification on high ground. You're just thinking of the Acropolis of Athens.

but you answered stolenrays! Man! can't you quote stolenrays instead of posting your answer after my answer?! I thought, you think that I only know the Acropolis of Athens, that that's the reason why it's a UB of the Greeks. Sorry, I misunderstood your post. Even the second was more confusing, it would be better, you should have answered: "I answered stolenrays".

And thanks for offending me for the same point of view. that's a confirmation that I am right (too).

 

[Horatius]

No, you're clearly an idiot.

 

[pie_at]

I don't get it. Really. It seems I am the biggest idiot ever. ok. Besides, great answer Horatius! Respect!

hm, you wrote: "Apparently you can't read." and then you answered "After all, when you assume that the word is not greek because of this and that and you seem sure of yourself ...".

And "I can't read"... what do you mean? that stolenrays talked about a Greek UU and I automatically mentioned UB because it's about the acropolis or what?

---------

I really wait for a normal answer.

---------

The question was: Why is it a Greek UB?

My answer is: because only the Greeks had a small seperated fortified upper "city" (=called Acropolis) next to their normal city (=called "polis"). And even gave it a special name because it was something special for them. Like the ziggurat of Sumerian/Assyrian/Babylonian cities.

It's my idiotic game you're playing. It's your choice.

And my additional opinion is: Horatius, you should be banned from this forum.

 

[alexyankee42]

And my additional opinion is: Horatius, you should be banned from this forum.

Seconded. We really don't need an elitist attitude on this forum (and there are many "proper historians" with equally respectable academic credentials who have enjoyed or contributed to this mod without resorting to insults). Pie has done very well, especially considering that his native language is German.

 

[leif erikson]

Moderator Action: This thread has gotten personal. When you address the person instead of the idea/topic, then you are trolling; all of you! Kindly come back to the topic at hand and cease the name calling and calls for people to be banned. None of you has the right to exclude anyone from these forums.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[cool.sound]

thank you Leif Eirkson!!!

i know that even professors of major universities disagree about things...

professor garrett fagan penn state univ

professor kenneth harl tulane univ

professor thomas noble notre dame univ

all teach rome; greek; late antiquity; etc etc etc

having seen or heard their lectures i can say each one of them is a little different!

and they do not agree on all things!

thank you again leif

 

[PinkPallin]

Moderator Action: None of you has the right to exclude anyone from these forums.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

Sure. But as users, we have the right to ask for moderators' actions. Messages like #14:

No, you're clearly an idiot.

are just unacceptable.

 

[mourndraken]

Sure. But as users, we have the right to ask for moderators' actions. Messages like #14:

are just unacceptable.

+1

Please protect our boy. His contributions have brought plenty of good memories and his game has kept us entertained for many years. Supporters and followers of this mod don't want to read insulting comments about our favorite mod author. We don't follow these forums just to read some personal vendetta against a creator whose hobby has kept us amazed for many years.