Paladins are not Melee Units

[Tarquelne]

Speaking purely to balance:

Disclaimer: I don't think the master smith or any other master building should be nerfed, at all. Actually I'd vote for a slight buff to outfitter and rancher (haven't tried the archer one), but the smith is perfect right now. It's difficult to get, requiring a lot of sacrifice on the player's part, and the equipment is just awesome enough to make it worth it. I just think disciple units need some equivalent, and the altar is certainly not enough.

I dunno... if we're dealing with equations and it used to be

Melee = Disciple

but now

Melee + Master Smith - "sacrifices" for Master Smith > Disciple

then balancing the equation means either adding something to the one side, or subtracting something from the other.

But I think looking at Melee vs. Disciple is a bit of a red herring. The significant equation should be costs of Smith Equipment (including opportunity costs of getting the Smith) vs. benefits of Smith Equipment. Which is greater should be conditional: Under some circumstances the Smith is worth it, sometimes it isn't. (The idea being that whether or not to pursue the Smith is an interesting decision. At least change of pace rather than an unalloyed advantage.)

Increasing the value of "sacrifices" sounds good to me because the costs are supposed to be lower for "Builder" civs already - civs that'd be more comfortable beelining for Construction or spending money on a few, new units rather than upgrading older experienced units. A "Warmonger" civ getting lots of xps for units via fighting has less need for the Equipment bonuses.

Greater cost, for example, could mean that someone's happy with their Disciple units rather going through the process of getting a Master Smith for Melee units. Or someone's happy their Axemen could seize cities containing Artisan's Workshops from someone else's Warriors.

 

[WarKirby]

I think nerfing the equipment is completely the wrong way to go here.

I love it from a flavorful standpoint, too,. uI like the idea of my superior empire being able to give better equipment to troops,.

Just allow the melee-oriented disciple units to use them, and everything is fine.

Paladin
Eidolon
Crusader
Paramander
Sphener
Mardero

Maybe some of these could do with the ability to use bronze, iron, and mythril weapons, too. Paramanders are considered inferior on the FFH forum because they can't use those weapons, and SoK can

 

[Breez]

Anything which you cannot purchase with a unit, but CAN gain by upgrading from some other unit which CAN purchase it needs to be reported so we can mark it <bValidate> which exists precisely to fix that situation. But accounting for all possible upgrade paths can be pretty tricky, so things get missed


And ideally the "balance factor" to give disciples an equivalent boost to their melee counterparts who now have toys to play with would be along completely different lines (like magical augmentation for cities or something). Kael's "Balance without paralleling" paradigm.

Warriors can buy melee equipment at a Master Smith then upgrade to archers and longbowmen, keeping the melee upgrades and buying Archer upgrades.

(personally I like it, but I concede it may need looked at balance wise )

 

[Iceciro]

Don't worry, Tarq already nailed this one in another thread No more keeping equipment cross-lines.

 

[DavidB1111]

I might be unpopular for suggesting this, but typically Paladins are holy warriors. This doesn't mean that they should be discipline units. To me, that makes less sense that a Dragon not being able to cross the ocean. (They can store food for years, otherwise they would starve before hitting the 1000 year mark)

They are holy warriors, not priests. They are a cross breed of both Priests and warriors, but they fight like warriors. They should be warriors. They are not prayer people, for lack of a better term. They can destroy undead by calling upon Holy Might, but they are not disciples by any stretch of the word.
Otherwise that makes Blackguards (Fallen Paladins, etc) disciples, and well, they're not.
They would bash your face in for saying that. Actually, so would Paladins...

 

[zup]

If they ever managed to catch you as the metal poles in their asses impedes their movement. Paladins are meh.

 

[Tarquelne]

Given the "do it yourself" theme of the Guerrilla thread I thought I'd mention what I've already changed here for the next patch:

Crusaders, Paramanders, and Paladins have access to "Blessed Armor." (Consider it extra blessed.)

Revenants and Eidolons have access to Cursed Weapons.
(Stygian Guard are already Melee.)

All of the above have access to the basic High Quality/Masterwork gear.

That's all via "AllowedPromotions" in UnitInfos.

Two new Gear Promotions:
Paladins, and only Paladins, have access to "Seals of Purity."
Eidolons, and only Eidolons, have access to "Sword of Klarkash."

(I still find the balance arguments dubious, but I'm willing to take a look a balance after giving the militants some of the "cool" gear.)

 

[Iceciro]

I think there's part of it that is "cool" bit of giving your units equipment. If I wasn't busy building Altar levels as the Scions (hooray, better Doomsayers out of the gate) I would go for engineers just because handing out equipment to experienced legions has a very cool feeling to it. I don't know how to explain it - but it feels very, very awesome.

 

[WarKirby]

I think there's part of it that is "cool" bit of giving your units equipment. If I wasn't busy building Altar levels as the Scions (hooray, better Doomsayers out of the gate) I would go for engineers just because handing out equipment to experienced legions has a very cool feeling to it. I don't know how to explain it - but it feels very, very awesome.

I agree with this.

I think it really adds something, to have the choice of equipping your troops with extra stuff. The cost stops you from putting it on absolutely everything, so it feels more "worthwhile" when you go that expense for your favorite unit.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

They are holy warriors, not priests. They are a cross breed of both Priests and warriors, but they fight like warriors. They should be warriors. They are not prayer people, for lack of a better term. They can destroy undead by calling upon Holy Might, but they are not disciples by any stretch of the word.
Otherwise that makes Blackguards (Fallen Paladins, etc) disciples, and well, they're not.
They would bash your face in for saying that. Actually, so would Paladins...

As far as I know, Paladins pray too much. For casting their spells, for receiving their divine protection etc. They are also known to be able to atone people, and to be a primal weapon in the spreading of a religion. So, they are Disciple units.
Now, a Blackguard, as you already stated, is a fallen Paladin. But in which respect it is fallen? In the respect of upholding to the religion requirments of being a Paladin. They have chosen to persue power through the means of strength and not through the Divine's blessing and protection. Thus, a Blackguard is not a Disciple unit, because he has renounced his religion. But the Paladin is a Disciple unit, because he is a Paladin because of it.

 

[Breez]

As far as I know, Paladins pray too much. For casting their spells, for receiving their divine protection etc. They are also known to be able to atone people, and to be a primal weapon in the spreading of a religion. So, they are Disciple units.
Now, a Blackguard, as you already stated, is a fallen Paladin. But in which respect it is fallen? In the respect of upholding to the religion requirments of being a Paladin. They have chosen to persue power through the means of strength and not through the Divine's blessing and protection. Thus, a Blackguard is not a Disciple unit, because he has renounced his religion. But the Paladin is a Disciple unit, because he is a Paladin because of it.

Paladin's fit both equally well is the problem for those trying to use lore for justification

If you assume all was equally balanced before adding this gear, (maybe a large assumption) then you have to assume that it was no longer balanced after the gear.

Personally I am MUCH more worried about game balance than the lore behind it.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

Paladin's fit both equally well is the problem for those trying to use lore for justification

If you assume all was equally balanced before adding this gear, (maybe a large assumption) then you have to assume that it was no longer balanced after the gear.

Personally I am MUCH more worried about game balance than the lore behind it.

The fact that Paladins should be allowed to use the gear does not make it justified to be a melee unit, IMO. A Paladin is, correctly IMO, a disciple unit that wears heavy gear, usually blessed, and battles the unholy with much religious fervor, but they do not fight, normaly, against non unholy or good beings(well, this is not reflected in the game, but it is how Paladins are different than melee units, except for the divine support and faith motivation and discipline).

 

[Iceciro]

It's probabaly fixed in the best way by letting them take their own equipment, as has been done.

They're actually a little bit buffed by being disciples in that, unless your enemy is AV, scourge is usually far rarer than Shock I/II.