Palmyra, Collab Mod

[Firebug]

I like the UA, but does caravans that end turn in your territory include yours? because you could just make internal trade routes and keep getting boosts to your production. Also, we need to consider how this production boost is calculated. The amount of gold the trade route makes? the range it travels? a percentage of the production that the sending city has?
I think 50% production is fair for caravansaries, caravans and markets. They aren't the most powerful things to be producing and it gives you a slight advantage in the early trade game if you can get them out sooner.

Clibanarii, i think thats fair. I'm not too sure about Great General points because of the Companion Cavalry. Perhaps golden age points?

 

[Redaxe]

I like the UA, but does caravans that end turn in your territory include yours? because you could just make internal trade routes and keep getting boosts to your production. Also, we need to consider how this production boost is calculated. The amount of gold the trade route makes? the range it travels? a percentage of the production that the sending city has?
I think 50% production is fair for caravansaries, caravans and markets. They aren't the most powerful things to be producing and it gives you a slight advantage in the early trade game if you can get them out sooner.

Clibanarii, i think thats fair. I'm not too sure about Great General points because of the Companion Cavalry. Perhaps golden age points?

The production bonus from caravans should only apply to foreign caravans - the skill of Palmyra should be to try to attract caravans to pass through your lands - this can be through careful city placing, investing in key buildings and wonders and building radial roads that allow other civs to establish trade routes. A good UA should reward a more skilled player.

Perhaps the production bonus could also be extended to mints? Palmyra did mint coins. The utility is that the AI bases its value of trade routes from the amount of gold it can gain from the trade route. The more gold a city earns from tiles improves the trade route yield and the likelihood that an AI will send a caravan your way.

Although if we are giving a 50% production bonus for caravansaries, caravans, markets and mints we should probably discuss the potential of having too much production, with the foreign caravan bonus.

Perhaps we should consider if passing caravans should provide gold, culture or food or possibly even tourism instead?

Also I'm a little confused about the caravans ending turn in your territory. Does this include caravans that are going to other civs and are just passing through my land (hence the player in this instance is a 3rd party benefactor) or caravans sent directly to the player? In principle building a city in area where there are lots of caravans passing back and forth could be quite an interesting situation and does sound better then more I think of it.

 

[Redaxe]

Clibanarii, i think thats fair. I'm not too sure about Great General points because of the Companion Cavalry. Perhaps golden age points?

Because other civs have it, or because it would be 2 horseman UUs that share the same promotion?

Keshiks also have Great Generals 1. Samurai have Great Generals 2.

Pracinhas and Minutemen both share the golden age bonus.

I'm not too fussed either way. Great Generals 1 gives the civ a bit more of a militaristic and disciplined feel. The golden age bonus on the other hand lends itself more towards culture and aesthetics.

EDIT: one example I found of 2 UUs from the same stream sharing a promotion is that both Conquistadors and Mandekalu Cavalry have no attack penalty against cities. That's a pretty generic promotion as is the Great Generals 1 & the golden age bonus for that matter. If you decide to go with the golden age point bonus, id remove it after unit upgrade though otherwise it is conceivably too powerful.

Although if Palmyra was to get bonus golden age points, I'd argue that it should come from staying at peace with your neighbours or from a DoF (possibly with the bonus golden age point bonus slowly increasing over time). And possibly Palmyra should reward its neighbours with bonus golden age points for signing a DoF with Palmyra - maybe at 1 golden age point per turn. So you get a small bonus for keeping Palmyra alive.

 

[NiaoMeow]

If anything, I think we should keep the design Firebug just made. It is the most perfect design so far, incorporating lots of elements from all designs. I vote for it to be the final design.

 

[Firebug]

If anything, I think we should keep the design Firebug just made. It is the most perfect design so far, incorporating lots of elements from all designs. I vote for it to be the final design.

wait, so this one?

Palmyrene Empire
Zenobia
Palmyra
Pearl of the Desert - Foreign caravans that end their turn in your territory give your capital a production bonus (Encourages expansion to gain more territory). Bonus increased for each trade route originating from the Capital (encourages sending trade out). Free Caravansary in the Capital when you research Horseback Riding (More trade route range).

Clibanarii - Doesn't require horses but is more expensive then the Horseman it replaces. Starts with Shock I and Cover I and has extra combat strength against damaged units. and Great Generals I.

Funerary Tower - Only buildable on desert and not adjacent to each other. Yields +1 culture, faith and happiness. an extra +1 culture per great person expended in the city working the tower. (or, each Funerary Tower worked by a city increases its culture output by +2%)

or

Tariff Court - Replaces the Caravansary, has the usual bonuses. Also receive +2 gold from incoming trade routes. Cost of purchasing military units decreased by 10%

 

[NiaoMeow]

wait, so this one?

That one! I would keep the Funerary tower and keep the raw +1 culture (for border expansion).

The design is actually quite synergetic and unique. I think it is time to code.

 

[Natan35]

I oppose the great people and happiness bonuses in the UI... I think itwd be more appropriate for it to have an Oases related bonus, such as extra culture when built next to them.

 

[shaglio]

I oppose the great people and happiness bonuses in the UI... I think itwd be more appropriate for it to have an Oases related bonus, such as extra culture when built next to them.

Maybe it's just me, but unless I'm playing on a specific map type (Sandstorm, Middle East, etc.), then Oases are pretty scarce. Even more so than Marshes.

 

[DJSHenninger]

I really like that trait, as it is now! I also like the UU, but it should be significantly more expensive if it gets 3 free Promotions, IMO. As for the UI, something with oases would be interesting, but, as shaglio mentions, they're quite rare. If there's nothing increasing the chance of getting oases/spawning oases, then I'd advise against anything with oases. Not entirely sure how the great person expending fits in, unless you like making citadels

 

[TranquilSilence]

Not entirely sure how the great person expending fits in, unless you like making citadels

Citadels created by Palmyra count as Oases?

In seriousness though, glad to see that a design has been settled upon, hopefully Palmyra will be out of development hell soon.

 

[Firebug]

Palmyrene Empire
Zenobia
Palmyra
Pearl of the Desert - Foreign caravans that end their turn in your territory give your capital a production bonus. Bonus increased for each trade route originating from the Capital. Free Caravansary in the Capital when you research Horseback Riding.

Clibanarii - Is more expensive then the Horseman it replaces. Starts with Shock I, Cover I and Great Generals I.

Funerary Tower - Only buildable on desert and not adjacent to each other. Yields +1 culture, faith and happiness.


--------------------------
possible 3UC

Tariff Court - Replaces the Caravansary, has the usual bonuses. Also receive +2 gold from incoming trade routes. Cost of purchasing military units decreased by 10%.

Zenobian Canal - Replaces the Water Mill. extends the range of fresh water by 1.
------------------------------
possible Events and Decisions

Construct the Tower of Bel
Cost - 1000 gold
Requirements - Capital must be working at least 2 Funerary Towers. Construction tech.
Effect - Builds a wonder in the capital that makes Funerary Towers worked by the Capital yield +1 gold and Oasis' yield +2 culture.

Import Food (Can be done multiple times?)
Cost - 100
Requirement - Must have research currency. Must be before renaissance.
Effect - Add x amount of food to your capital's bucket.

 

[Skaz881]

Looks great, but the bonus applies to trade routes originating from YOUR capital, right? That parts a little unclear.

 

[NiaoMeow]

Palmyrene Empire
Zenobia
Palmyra
Pearl of the Desert - Foreign caravans that end their turn in your territory give your capital a production bonus. Bonus increased for each trade route originating from the Capital. Free Caravansary in the Capital when you research Horseback Riding.

Clibanarii - Is more expensive then the Horseman it replaces. Starts with Shock I, Cover I and Great Generals I.

Funerary Tower - Only buildable on desert and not adjacent to each other. Yields +1 culture, faith and happiness.

The funerary tower needs something else... are we just going to make a boring improvement that has terrible yields? I like the GP cultural generation, and we could replace the caravansary part of the UA with "citadels = oases". However, then we should make a free caravansary desicion.

Honestly, I love the idea of citadels = oases because it brings together every single aspect of the design.

Import Food (Can be done multiple times?)
Cost - 100
Requirement - Must have research currency. Must be before renaissance.
Effect - Add x amount of food to your capital's bucket.

We could change this into a decision that gives a free food-giving caravansary to reflect food imports.

 

[Redaxe]

The funerary tower needs something else... are we just going to make a boring improvement that has terrible yields?

Does the happiness from the funerary tower require the tile to be worked or is it applied automatically as the improvement is in your land - like the happiness Natural Wonders.

A free +1 happiness for not having to work the tile is pretty decent. But then the yield from the tile is too insignificant to work - at least in the early game.

 

[Firebug]

Palmyrene Empire
Zenobia
Palmyra
Pearl of the Desert - Foreign caravans that end their turn in your territory give your capital a production bonus. Bonus increased for each trade route originating from your Capital. Citadels act as a source of Fresh Water.

Clibanarii - Is more expensive then the Horseman it replaces. Starts with Shock I, Cover I and Great Generals I.

Funerary Tower - Available at Masonry. Only buildable on desert and not adjacent to each other. Yields +2 faith and +2 Happiness when worked. Each tile adjacent to a funerary tower yields +1 culture (and +1 faith?)

The Funerary Tower can now buff adjacent tiles, and yields more faith and happiness when worked. This is a powerful UI, especially at Masonry. But it has enough restriction i feel, desert and no adjacency.

or

Funerary Tower - Available at Masonry. Only buildable on desert and not adjacent to each other. Yields +1 culture, +1 faith and +2 Happiness when worked. Yields an additional +2 culture after Archaeology. When constructed, acquires a random adjacent neutral tile.

 

[NiaoMeow]

The Funerary Tower can now buff adjacent tiles, and yields more faith and happiness when worked. This is a powerful UI, especially at Masonry. But it has enough restriction i feel, desert and no adjacency.

or

Funerary Tower - Available at Masonry. Only buildable on desert and not adjacent to each other. Yields +1 culture, +1 faith and +2 Happiness when worked. Yields an additional +2 culture after Archaeology. When constructed, acquires a random adjacent neutral tile.

I actually think extra culture (+1 for each GP) is very synergistic with the UA, and especially so if we make part of the UA Citadels=oases.

 

[Firebug]

Palmyrene Empire
Zenobia
Palmyra
Pearl of the Desert - Foreign caravans that end their turn in your territory give your capital a production bonus. Bonus increased for each trade route originating from your Capital. Citadels act as a source of Fresh Water.

Clibanarii - Is more expensive then the Horseman it replaces. Starts with Shock I, Cover I and Great Generals I.

Funerary Tower - Available at Masonry. Only buildable on desert and not adjacent to each other. Yields +2 faith and +2 Happiness when worked. Yields an additional +1 Culture whenever a Great Person is expended in the city working them.



Final design?

 

[NiaoMeow]

Palmyrene Empire
Zenobia
Palmyra
Pearl of the Desert - Foreign caravans that end their turn in your territory give your capital a production bonus. Bonus increased for each trade route originating from your Capital. Citadels act as a source of Fresh Water.

Clibanarii - Is more expensive then the Horseman it replaces. Starts with Shock I, Cover I and Great Generals I.

Funerary Tower - Available at Masonry. Only buildable on desert and not adjacent to each other. Yields +2 faith and +2 Happiness when worked. Yields an additional +1 Culture whenever a Great Person is expended in the city working them.



Final design?

I really like it! I think it's final, at least for me.

 

[Firebug]

Well we still need to work out the value of the production bonus. Is it a percentage bonus? a hurry production? just solid production like you get from ironworks? How much of this bonus do you get per caravan, and how much does it get increases by the caravans leaving your capital?

 

[NiaoMeow]

Well we still need to work out the value of the production bonus. Is it a percentage bonus? a hurry production? just solid production like you get from ironworks? How much of this bonus do you get per caravan, and how much does it get increases by the caravans leaving your capital?

It should be something like a rush production bonus (like chopping down a forest) that is initially quite weak (+10 ?) that is increased a lot. We have to remember that how much production things cost in the ancient and the information era are very different, so it might make sense to double the bonus mid-game. We also have to remember that for much of the game you only have so many trade routes.

I quite like +10 , with +5 per trade route. Doubled upon entering the Industrial era.