Papacy Mod

[Oni]

*This may be in the wrong topic but I am not sure where to go with starting a Mod.


I have not modded before so I hope I can get some guidance. However, I am a Computer Engineer with massive programming and scripting experience and I think this will be a fun project
Anyone that wants to get involved is more than welcome.

First things first I want to address the goals and reasoning of this mod. There are many ways to go about this, some easier then others but would not allow for further development (but atleast we could get it implimented and some game-play testing though).

MOTIVATION-
Religon is great but lacks some spunk.
For one I am not necessarily motivated to start 'Holy Wars' although the AI certainly is. Thats great and all for single player but I would like to see some crazy holy wars in MP also.
Secondly having a Holy city does have some nice bonuses but not enough to consider a 'Crusade' in taking a holy city (just enough to seek the religon initially... view of other cities, money if the shrine is built).

To solve these issues lets add a Papacy effect to the civ which controls the Holy City.
So whats the Papacy?

If a Civ has a State Religon and controls that Religons Holy city then they are the Papacy for that Religon.

Papacy effects:

Basic version-
All civs with a State religon have a ONE-WAY deffencive pact with the Papacy (if they exist. NOTE: there will not always be a Papacy for a religon since it requires the Holy City AND it be your State Religon, e.g. a civ may have multiple Holy Cities but only have one be its state religon thus leaving the others with no Papacy).
By ONE-WAY deffencive pact this means that non-Papal civs MUST abide by any of the Papals Treaties and declarations of war. NOT vise versa however.



So this will bring up some issues right away. For example what if The Christian Papacy declares war on anther Christian Civ? Does this force all the Christian Civs to war with that Civ?
For this I say what ever is easier to impliment in this earlier version. It could be viewed as a test version to see what would be more desirable in the later versions.


Later version goals:
1. To handle the issue of what to do about Civs that are the same religon as the papcy upon war declaration, alot more additional features could be added for more spunk.
2. In addition rather than FORCING the papal followers to declare war/peace etc, they could be given an ultimatum, Do it or WAR with the Papacy (and all its followers).
3. Add a diplomatic +/- depending on how the papacy uses its diplomatic sway. If they are a war like Civ and causing massive religous wars civs should eventually say something like "Your religous wars will be the end of humanity! -#"
And on the other hand if they are forcing peace between nations this could give a possitive effect (espeacially from the loosing Civ thankful the Papacy intervened).
4. The Papacy should be allowed to state wether their decisions (war/peace) are Holy or simply decisions of the state. By not making it a Holy war they would avoid the possible negative effects (number 3 above) that could come along with it. Or it could force a war without being involved by Declaring a Holy war against a nation and then trying to acheive peace on its own.

More on Same Religon Papal wars-
As I said many things could be implimented here and it will require a bit of test play to see what works best. Something that would be fun to impliment would be Religous Factions.

Religous Factions-
Fundimentally the same religon for diplomatic purposes. So if a Buddist Civ is giving -4 to Christian Civs, they will view the factioned Civ with about the same regard. In addition, once peace is resolved the faction will have ALMOST equal regard to its Original Religon and vise versa (this can dissipate due to continual Holy Wars)

When a Papacy declares war on Civ with their religon (OR a Civ declares war on their Papacy), the non-Papal Civ founds a new 'faction-Religon' and receives the Holy city for it.
[a second war involving the origianl Papacy may force the non-Papal civ into the already created 'faction-Religon' or create an entirely new one... As I said lots of game-play testing would determine the best action)



Since I have never modded Civ before at the minimum I am hoping someone points me in the right direction of How we could do this.

I think this would add some awesome religous wars and crusades to the mix. If you find your papacy is 'Un-just' or maybe to weak you can surely try to conquer it

 

[Junuxx]

I like the idea of making MP religious wars more likely by making holy cities much more valuable, but to be honest, your papacy seems overpowered.

Maybe you should require Theocracy for the effects? Or the one-way defensive pact should only effect nations with Organized Religion/Theocracy.

Maybe you should only use this in combination with OCC, to reflect the Papal State's current situation.
Maybe you could add the civilization 'Papal State' (don't think it's a good name, should be less religion-specific), which is granted a random religion at start, but cannot build settlers, Maybe have a unique unit that can convert cities without disappearing (so one unit can convert multiple cities).

 

[Oni]

It is a bit powerful but that is why it would be best to have the option to break from the papacy (which would make sence as that often happend IRL).

Further thought, maybe rather than having splinter religons (as that might be hard to impliment and game play may get confusing), one could just break from the papacy rather than follow their diplomatic relations.
Breaking from the papacy would mean immediate war with them and any of their followers. They would still have the state religon that they were prior to the break, but would no longer have to react to any of the papacy's decisions (thoughout the rest of the game). IN ADDITION, the papacy no longer receives any 'Shrine' Income from the broken off Civ's temples.
Reducing the Shrine income may proove that the income should be slightly increased. In this way the Papacy will rely on it and if a Civ breaks off will fee the imediate effect.

I think that any Religon Civic that has 'State Religon' is only logical to be controlled by the papacy. Although the 'Pacifism' would be odd to be forced into war. In that sence we could simply change the civic to be
+100% great person birth rate in cities with religion;
+1 gold support cost per military unit
If this Civic is too powerful Minor alterations could be made. Either lower the %, or limit it to Top 4 populated cites.

I like your last idea but I think it would make a nice seperate version... Probably good for some senerios too.

 

[Oni]

I think I have a solution that could combine most of what should be addressed.

A National Wonder... Vatican or something.

It can only be built in a city with a shrine. It can only be built by a Great Prophet.
This will delay the first apearance of a Papacy greatly. However it could still happen fast if a Civ is HEAVILY religous with lots of priests and such.

Vatican-
-Can only be built if Civ controls a shrine for its current State religon.
-Doubles the effect of the shrine (more income for temples)
-CAN be built in any city as long as they have room for a National wonder(not necessarily the Holy City)
-Switching State Religon (or going to none) destorys the Vatican.
-Generates a ONE-WAY deffencive pact with all Civs that have the same State Religon


With this the only way to get out of doing what the Papacy says is switching to a Religon that does not have one. I think it would be useful to have 'Inquisitor' Units for the Papacy. This would ensure that their followers remain faithful or suffer by switching to No religon.

 

[MrUnderhill]

Sounds like an early UN that's tied to religion. I like it!

 

[Oni]

Not to many comments

Well I think I have even a better way of doing this.

Instead of having a National Wonder we have 2 World Wonders for each Religon. The only criteria for building it is that the religon is present in the city.

Therefor not just the Civ with the Holy city can acheive this.

The wonders null out the other in a way that once the one is built the other can not be built. One is meant for a more "War-like" religous attitude while the other is more Peaceful. For now lets call the 'war-like' one the Papacy and the Peaceful one The Great Statue (keep in mind each Religon has one of each).

Papacy-
Grants ONE-WAY deffencive pact with all Civs using the corresponding Religon as a 'State' Religon (so long as the ownder has the religon as a 'state' relgion also)
Allows for the construction of Inquisitors.
Doubles the effect of the corresponding shrine (if it is controlled by the owner)

Great Statue-
All corresponding religous temples now spread religon (in all Civs).
Owner is no longer 'retro'-effected by ANY papacy decisions (this means that the owner is safe a Papacy declaring war on them and causing the rero effect of its followers to war).


Inquisitor-
Small chance of removing each non-corresponding religon (seperately) and destroying any religous buildings of that type (for each religous building it is less likely that the religon can not be removed).
Good chance of spreading the religon it is assiciated with (chance increases for each other religon removed).
CAN NOT BE USED IN A HOLY CITY.

Well gotta get to work, I will post comments on the reasoning of this and plan of attack later. I hope there are some comments to read though....

 

[Civanator]

It is a bit powerful but that is why it would be best to have the option to break from the papacy (which would make sence as that often happend IRL).

Further thought, maybe rather than having splinter religons (as that might be hard to impliment and game play may get confusing), one could just break from the papacy rather than follow their diplomatic relations.
Breaking from the papacy would mean immediate war with them and any of their followers. They would still have the state religon that they were prior to the break, but would no longer have to react to any of the papacy's decisions (thoughout the rest of the game). IN ADDITION, the papacy no longer receives any 'Shrine' Income from the broken off Civ's temples.
Reducing the Shrine income may proove that the income should be slightly increased. In this way the Papacy will rely on it and if a Civ breaks off will fee the imediate effect.

Maybe have all the civs under a certain religion be on a team, so if one goes to war they all go to war?

The drawback is that they wont be able to declare war on each other, and they get combined research. This can probably be edited though.

I'd like to help this mod, but I don't know too much about modding the game yet, though I'm learning quickly.

 

[Oni]

Yes I had thought about that also and came to the same conclusion (combined research is a prob). Also I want to make the ONE-WAY pact since the non-papacy should not be getting protection really.

Well I looked through the XML and I am trying to make sence of it all. I compare to the Shrine and it seems simple to make a building spread religon.

As for the deffencive pact I cant find anything on the diplomatic treaties. Is there an XML file on this at all?

 

[Civanator]

I looked at the python script 'CvDiplomacy' to see if there was anything in it about the pacts, but nothing came up that I could catch, so you may want to take a look at it.

My other thought is that defensive pacts are hardcoded into the game, so we could maybe create a script that automatically signs a defensive pact with the papacy and the civ when the civ switches to that religion.

 

[Oni]

But we need to be able to handle the fact that the papacy need not be forced into a war if a Civ with their religon is. That could be difficult scripting (not sure if it could even be handled)...

 

[Kushan]

Breaking from the papacy would mean immediate war with them and any of their followers. They would still have the state religon that they were prior to the break, but would no longer have to react to any of the papacy's decisions (thoughout the rest of the game). IN ADDITION, the papacy no longer receives any 'Shrine' Income from the broken off Civ's temples.
Reducing the Shrine income may proove that the income should be slightly increased. In this way the Papacy will rely on it and if a Civ breaks off will fee the imediate effect.

Maybe not go impediatley into war if your choose to break away. Maybe just get them really really mad at you, that they might go to war with you over it. Sorta of like what happened when the English church broke away from catholicism, the pope ordered the King of Spain to retake England by force, thus leading to the defeat of the Spanish Aramada. I think for balance there needs to both pros/ands cons both ways. if you stay with the papacy then yes you'll have to abide by its decisions but you should get something in return. But for leaving the papacy, yes you can make your own decisions, but along with breaking away maybe you should lose something else as well.

I like the idea though. If implemented it would make holy cities much more important.

Kushan

 

[Quitos]

i have a similar idea where the pope is not tied to holy city (Benoit XVI does not live in Jerusalem), but is built as a wonder... or choosen by Elections (cardinals from every believer contry,, ie. each civ having that religion as state religion vote like in UN with votes in relation with population of believers-- population * percentage of believers of that religion)

some powers of the POPE
1. declaring Holy war (involves all civs with that religion)
2. Getting extra money
3. declaring a civ leader as heretic --> causing extreme unrest+ revolution
4. imposing peace between two civ following that religion

original post
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=3528670&postcount=5

 

[Hentooth]

I am liking the sound of this mod and will be tracking it.

I would love religion to be more of a factor when going to war, who your allies are and what rules to abide by.

Keep up the good work sirs!

 

[P-51D]

So is this like a Crusades mod?

 

[Oni]

I have been trying to find files on actual trade and trade relations. I am having no such luck. Does anyone know where I should be looking.

Quitos-
Your idea sounds like what I am trying to get towards. I am not particular with voting or no voting and such. My main idea is there should be a Papal effect that could inturn cause a Holy War. In addition there should be some-linkage to the Holy city (wether it mean the papacy can obtain more money or whatever).

I will look at the thread you are reffering to. If nothing maybe we can help each other towards one Mod and if we want specific difference make separate ones from there.