Paratroopers???

[Uncle Sam]

He was only parachuting for fun

LOL! I guess he needed more practice?

 

[Dieterbos]

I think civ represents para's correct. Paras are actualy light infantry with no chance to survive on their own agains regular ground troops. They are intended to seize and hold key terrein features until they are relieved by advancing groundtroops. A further use is to slow reinforcements sent to the front line. Rember that every unit which is fighting your paras is not used to fight you main thrust. If the enemy refuses to fight your paras, they will have to slip through your para's ZOC causing delay and damag to that unit. Also in defence, they can be very usefull in providing a very mobile force which can be used to seal of an enemy breaktrhough through your lines. In C3C this works especially well with airlifted TOW infantry. The main issue here is to assign the para's to the role which they are intended to in the combined arms army. They are not an ultra mobile invincible infatry unit, because they are not either in real life.

 

[jst666]

Recently during the 60th anniversary of D-Day, I watched a couple of documentaries on the subject. The paras were used to strike to couple of small strategic targets like artillery posts and bridges, and make the enemy's counter-attack more difficult.

 

[kokoras]

Recently during the 60th anniversary of D-Day, I watched a couple of documentaries on the subject. The paras were used to strike to couple of small strategic targets like artillery posts and bridges, and make the enemy's counter-attack more difficult.

The first place liberated by the (allies) paras was a brige of a strategic importance (don't recall the name) .They were droped in major strategic targets,one of their missions was to take out the cannons that were in some distance from the coast and had an exelent positioning and range ability to the sea,from were they would come the ships.
Paras were the key to the hall operation.

 

[scoutsout]

The first place liberated by the (allies) paras was a brige of a strategic importance (don't recall the name) .They were droped in major strategic targets,one of their missions was to take out the cannons that were in some distance from the coast and had an exelent positioning and range ability to the sea,from were they would come the ships.
Paras were the key to the hall operation.

The artillery pieces were follow-on missions and/or "targets of opportunity". The most important objectives for the Airborne units was siezing key bridges and causeways before the Germans could blow them up - so the invasion could press inland.

The U.S. 82nd and 101st Airborne were dropped on the Cotentin Peninsula behind Utah Beach. The British 6th Airborne had objectives along the Orne River and Caen Canal, behind Sword. I believe there was a regiment or battalion of Canadian paratroopers in the mix, but I don't recall where they were dropped.

Sainte Mere Eglise was liberated by the 82nd Airborne at 0430H on D-Day. I believe this was the first French town liberated by paratroopers.

On the afternoon of D-Day, the 101st Airborne was ordered to take St. Come du Mont and Carentan, so that the forces on Omaha and Utah could effectively link up. Most of the bridges along the Douve river had been destroyed. A single causeway was the key to Carentan. The battle for that causeway was a bloody one.

To this day, the 82nd Airborne Division has a practice drop zone at Fort Bragg, North Carolina called "Ste. Mere Eglise DZ".

 

[dgfred]

@scoutsout- Thanks for all the info . Leave it to you to know all
the facts .

 

[kokoras]

Scoutsout it is exactly as you said,capture the bridges before the Germans blow them up.There were polish paras as well,only that they were not so lucky as others,Germans found out their landing zone and did nothing more than expect them in the ground.
The first bridge they have liberated was in the city you have mentioned.
I am not so good on remembering dates and numbers as you do,but i like that someone else does remembers them...

 

[scoutsout]

Thanks guys - but don't be too quick to compliment my knowledge on Paras. We all tend to know something about subjects that are near and dear to us. Having jumped a few drop zones at Ft. Bragg, this is a subject near and dear to my heart....

...which should also explain why developing some decent CivIII paratrooper tactics became something of a personal quest.

 

[troytheface]

mentioned this in another thread but i agree that coupled with helicopter drops paratroops are a good unit, and add to the variety of play, i prefer missle/ air/marine and paratroops attacks as a style when using america or japan ,however even germany's panzers need cover sometimes (and there is no rush to get modern armor when playing germany). Playing any civ Paratroopers make good city defenders and can keep the pace going in an all out blitz - workers are often taken in cities and instant airports can be made ..i tend to go for - Advanced flight then Fission then Rocketry (and seem to be able to tade for Amphibeous) rather than Computers/Synthetic so that mech force is usually on hold in my games which means Paratroops and a Helicopter drop of Guerilla/2 Infantry can cover tank assaults that end in enemy territory .....-Amphibeous and Advanced Flight are two techs that provide units i prefer in the later stages of the game as well when nukes come into play-and Paratroopers also update making them one of three viable non wheeled modern units that can be airlifted by chopper if needed-(TOE, Marine and Paratroop.)

 

[Jaybe]

I finished a game yesterday where I had uncharacteristically few paras/marines. I performed an air assault (2 adv. paras in a heli) to take some high ground to assist a ground assault. It was the first one I had done in a few weeks of play ...

... I had a forceful reminder to check for enemy interceptors!

 

[Bibor]

You don't need a heli for paras?!? That's the whole point?

-bibor

 

[Bibor]

Quote: I think civ represents para's correct. Paras are actualy light infantry with no chance to survive on their own agains regular ground troops.

Hmm, I would just like to ask WHAT THE???? Just for the info, modern Special Forces are born from WWII paratroop units. Now tell an US Special Forces sergeant that he cannot hold the line with his men.
And tell a German WWII Fallschirmjaeger (i think i spelled it right) that he's not "best of the best" every single man handpicked from the german army corps.

IMHO, Paratroopers are just underpowered in civ3...

 

[scoutsout]

Quote: I think civ represents para's correct. Paras are actualy light infantry with no chance to survive on their own agains regular ground troops.

I think that's overstated.

Hmm, I would just like to ask WHAT THE???? Just for the info, modern Special Forces are born from WWII paratroop units. Now tell an US Special Forces sergeant <snip>

Not quite. While there is certainly a link, the history is somewhat more varied than that. Among U.S. special operations forces, that history includes:

"Frogmen" and Underwater Demolition Teams
"Merrill's Marauders"
Rangers (various incarnations before becoming the present day 75th Infantry Regt.)
The 1st Special Service Force
Various Office of Strategic Services detachments (Jedburgh teams among them)

Prior to WWII, there were other units that practiced what was later described as "unconventional warfare". Among them:

John Singleton Mosby, C.S.A. Cavalry
Francis Marion, the "Swamp Fox" of the American Revolution
Maj. Robert Rogers, French and Indian Wars "Roger's Rangers"

Add the history of special units from all the different countries, and it is just not as simple as "...born from WWII paratroop units".

IMHO, Paratroopers are just underpowered in civ3...

 

[Longasc]

There are lots of historical examples regarding the usefulness of paratroopers, on large scale as well as on special operations.

I would also like to add Bibor, paratroopers are regarded as absolute elite infantryman, physically and mentally strong and well trained. This applies to every nation's paratroopers.

So "Paras are actualy light infantry with no chance to survive on their own agains regular ground troops." is not true. Field Marshal Model also ran away during Market Garden as he even heard of possible paratrooper drops near his headquarters. He also said that paratroopers grow ever weaker without support over time, but I think he did not think of them as being unable to fight against regular infantry.

But well - in Civ3 you will have to make very sophisticated plans to use them effectively, and they are just not that good, I would even say we can really do without and substitute them with a lot of other troops like bombers and helicopter transports.

 

[Bibor]

Scoutsout, i was just simplifying things down. Of course special forces are not a direct offshoot of paratroopers. To be an SF you must master many skills, of which just one is paradropping. But there are more than plenty connections between SF and paratroopers. After all, paratroopers were not *mere soldiers with parachute*. They were the "latest thing" in unconventional warfare (at that time), and the first SF training camp was Camp Mckall, am i right? At which the 101th airborne trained among others.

Uhh, to get back to the point
Put a 100 paratroopers against 100 normal infantry and watch the results. Just as today. If an SF soldier is not worth 100 common soldiers, investment in his training and gear is not paying off.

There are several problems with paratroopers in CIV3, not just their att/def values.
First of all, tanks and mech inf can enter mountains, marshes, forests etc with no problemo. hmpf. Too many roads, too many railroads on map, definitely. Civ 3 is, like *born* for scenarios only Tanks, mech inf, artillery etc. should be wheeled units by default. now lets see who attacks the paras in mountain squares without roads *evil grin*. Wheeled tag should apply to forrests also. I mean, forests in civ dont represent "a patch of wood", they're thick forests (every terrain has some trees).
etc. bla

-bibor

 

[scoutsout]

@Bibor: I find your knowledge of US Army SF curious, given your location. I don't know all that many Americans who know of Camp Mackall. It was indeed the "Home of the Airborne" once upon a time. IIRC, it was named for the first American Paratrooper killed in combat.

 

[Jaybe]

You don't need a heli for paras?!? That's the whole point?

The point was that I did not have an airport/airbase where needed at the time.

 

[Bibor]

@scoutsout: I must admit, the greatest help is that our (ex) country was really not restrictive about books, movies and other information sources. Every culturally valuable book was and is translated to serbian or croatian, even obscure ones like the Diary of captain James Cook i used to read as a kid.

 

[troytheface]

i read or saw somewhere that the german paratroopers that landed on Crete really got slaughtered- but they did take the isle-so as an invasion force i think the current stats
mimic reality ok (except for the range) in so far as them being elite troops,-perhaps , but on the allies side they were never the main invasion-and i think there was one disasterous drop over the rhine that like landed in the middle of a bunch of SS brigades and got wiped out-(again like in the game when u paradrop on a well armed AI)-all in all in the game they can be a fast defender before mech comes into play and if ur warring prior to computers it is a solid unit when correctly implemented- i would say one chopper, four paratroops and a moderate airforce are sufficent to support a succeesful tank assault-i always raze-(except if its a wonder city or last city) and mass settle as the dust is starting to clear-(emperor/huge/contint)

 

[player1 fanatic]

Well it's pretty simple 100 paratroopers don't have same eqipment as 100 normal infanrties, becasue they can't carry everything with them.

So they are less eqiped, but on the other hand better trained to compensate.

That's why they in game have defense of 9. You can't have them with better defense then regular infantry otherwise they would ruin balance (you'll defend cities with paras ).

As for modern paras I think something should be done with them considering that they are much weaker them best ground infantry (TOW). Maybe increasing their defense to 13?