Patch .141 Diplomacy - Guarded -> Friendly -> War ?!

[maltz]

Just got the game last week and updated to patch .141 last night. Had a high hope for better diplomacy. Listing the reasons of bipolar mood swings does help a lot, but there seems to be a bug to make AI Friendly although they do hate me.

Emperor Marathon Game on Tiny Earth, 8 Civs. I spawned on present day Egypt & Palestine, surrounded by English (central Africa), Persia (West Africa), Iroquois (East Europe), and French (South Asia).

There is also a oddly-positioned City State sandwiched in between the already-crowded English and Persia.

English and Iroquois was neutral to me. Napoleon was immediately friendly (for no good reason).
I am not going to invest in his willing to make friends with me, though.

Rushed Persia first since its population and cash was running out-of-control.
English and Iroquois remained Neutral.

Next puppeted the city state since I wouldn't be able to touch the English otherwise.

English became Guarded. Reasons:
(1) Belives I am a warmonging danger to the world.
(2) Eyes over my land (i.e. Elizebeth wanted the city state herself, which is reasonable.)

Iroquois also became Guarded for the first reason. Reasonable.

Soon Elizebeth publically denounced me (I cannot be trusted).

Immediately after the denouncement, BOTH English and Iroquois became FRIENDLY (but only showing the same two reasons above).
In the diplomatic interface Elizebeth and Hiawatha were both angry (Hiawatha used much more polite words, but yes he was angry).

Probably a Bug?

And still Napoleon remained friendly. Could be reasonable - he would have done the same thing.

Only a few turns later both Iroquois and English DECLARED WAR on me.

I proceeded to wipe the English off my backyard Africa.

Then Napoleon became GUARDED because I am his next expansion target (reasonable)...

***

Everything seems good, just there shouldn't be a FRIENDLY right before the war unless the game purposely wants to fool the player.

 

[Germnoble]

Another thing about War.

Does the AI ever just say "Hide yo sh**. I'm coming in!" and start shoving troops up your ass? Or do you always need to allow it to declare war? I'd like it better if they'd surprise me. Rather then me needing to give the OK. Seems like a cheat.

 

[Dralix]

In the diplomatic interface Elizebeth and Hiawatha were both angry (Hiawatha used much more polite words, but yes he was angry).

Probably a Bug?

(snip)

Everything seems good, just there shouldn't be a FRIENDLY right before the war unless the game purposely wants to fool the player.

The AI leaders do have different values for "deceptive" so it's possible that the FRIENDLY was in fact an intentional attempt at deception. Like you, I've seen where the AI showed as friendly, but their body language and voice clearly was not. I've even been declared by an AI who acted in such a manner with a text that said something like "you were a fool to trust me" which would support the deception theory.

Then again, if all you have to do to see through the deception is actually talk to the leader, then it's not very deceptive, is it? So it could very well be a bug with the attitude text.

At any rate, I think you get a better idea of how they feel about you from talking to them than from reading the attitude text.

 

[Dralix]

do you always need to allow it to declare war? I'd like it better if they'd surprise me. Rather then me needing to give the OK. Seems like a cheat.

Not sure what you mean here. The AI has never asked my permission to go to war against me.

 

[Germnoble]

Not sure what you mean here. The AI has never asked my permission to go to war against me.

I mean, I've had a screen pop up where a guy was like "Oi! What's all this then?"

and the options were "Your Dead! *War*" and "Sorry bro."

Is that how it always goes or does the AI just flat out invade?

 

[Dralix]

Sounds like you're talking about when they complain about your troops near their "borders" (I use borders in quotes because it seems like they treat units as borders). In that case, you can either declare war on them, or tell them you're "just passing through." I believe you get a diplo hit if you choose the latter and then DoW within some number of turns.

The AI can just declare on you.

 

[maltz]

There are definitely signs before the AI declares war. In the order of:

(1) Attitude: GUARDED.
(2) Public Denouncement.
(3) WAR Declaration, usually along with another Civ. This other Civ usually does not actively participate in the war.

In my game Napoleon just went to (2).

Thanks! I am pulling back my army right away.
And thanks for the free loan in advance.

 

[Strategy Master]

There is very bizzare things going on in the diplomacy.

Japan denouced me, declared war on me. Thats all fine he was after my lands fair enough. Declared peace and he remained guarded. Now note everyone on the map has made pacts of cooperations with each other, which i wonder is really screwing up the system somehow.

I then denounced Japan. Japan became instantly friendly, and instead of a red mark "that we have been at war" it was instead "we have been at war but this is not making any effect on our relations". Denoucing can not truly be a remedy to make someone friendly?

 

[bryanw1995]

Just got the game last week and updated to patch .141 last night. Had a high hope for better diplomacy. Listing the reasons of bipolar mood swings does help a lot, but there seems to be a bug to make AI Friendly although they do hate me.

Emperor Marathon Game on Tiny Earth, 8 Civs. I spawned on present day Egypt & Palestine, surrounded by English (central Africa), Persia (West Africa), Iroquois (East Europe), and French (South Asia).

There is also a oddly-positioned City State sandwiched in between the already-crowded English and Persia.

English and Iroquois was neutral to me. Napoleon was immediately friendly (for no good reason).
I am not going to invest in his willing to make friends with me, though.

Rushed Persia first since its population and cash was running out-of-control.
English and Iroquois remained Neutral.

Next puppeted the city state since I wouldn't be able to touch the English otherwise.

English became Guarded. Reasons:
(1) Belives I am a warmonging danger to the world.
(2) Eyes over my land (i.e. Elizebeth wanted the city state herself, which is reasonable.)

Iroquois also became Guarded for the first reason. Reasonable.

Soon Elizebeth publically denounced me (I cannot be trusted).

Immediately after the denouncement, BOTH English and Iroquois became FRIENDLY (but only showing the same two reasons above).
In the diplomatic interface Elizebeth and Hiawatha were both angry (Hiawatha used much more polite words, but yes he was angry).

Probably a Bug?

And still Napoleon remained friendly. Could be reasonable - he would have done the same thing.

Only a few turns later both Iroquois and English DECLARED WAR on me.

I proceeded to wipe the English off my backyard Africa.

Then Napoleon became GUARDED because I am his next expansion target (reasonable)...

***

Everything seems good, just there shouldn't be a FRIENDLY right before the war unless the game purposely wants to fool the player.

yes, their in-game behavior was more accurate than the "friendly" moniker. I've seen that happen as well. either it's a bug, or they try to trick you by turning "friendly" after they make a secret pact to attack you (possible).

Napoleon wasn't mad at you because his warmoger hate isn't nearly as high as the others. The others got mad at you for eliminating a civ (CS counts just like any other civ). Take out the irroquois and you'll probably get napoleon into "warmongering danger so I don't like you" territory. however, if you've already steamrollered 3 others then who cares?

btw, on relatively isolated starts, if you take out every other civ that you know before contact with the rest of the world you get no diplomatic hit.

There are definitely signs before the AI declares war. In the order of:

(1) Attitude: GUARDED.
(2) Public Denouncement.
(3) WAR Declaration, usually along with another Civ. This other Civ usually does not actively participate in the war.

In my game Napoleon just went to (2).

Thanks! I am pulling back my army right away.
And thanks for the free loan in advance.

you're lucky, sometimes that happens to me and sometimes they both mass large numbers of troops on my border right before the dow. I especially like it when they dow you and 3 turns later do it again. One time I got 3 dow's from the same ai within 6 turns. I had generated quite a bit of warmonger hate by this point of course

btw, the multiple dow's just mean that they agreed with several different civs to declare on you at the same time.

 

[maltz]

I like the concept of a "Warmongering threshold".

In fact Napoleon already denounced me for being a Warmonger and there is an extra reason for me to be hated by Civs: I expanded too rapidly.
So Napoleon's warmongering threshold is 3. (Elizabeth and Iroquois was 2.)

So the "Rapid expansion" threshold" is 4 or 5 for all. (I had 5 but have razed one).

Indeed there are still three Civs that I have never met. Probably somewhere in the Far East and America. I am curious to find out what they would think of me when they finally meet me. Maybe I will play nice to them and pretend nothing happened.

Too bad I really wanted to make a friend and stick with each other. But they just keep hating me for various reasons.

 

[kingpapawawa]

there are definitely bugs. just last night i liberated Hanoi from the Arabs, it showed them as allies and at war with me. A few turns later they gave me a unit then attacked it.

 

[MadRat]

there are definitely bugs. just last night i liberated Hanoi from the Arabs, it showed them as allies and at war with me. A few turns later they gave me a unit then attacked it.

Hanoi needs prozac.. but seriously that is the first I have heard about that one.

Rat