What Rommel showed was that it was not the Italian soldier that was the problem, it was the equipment, training, and leadership that combined to make the soldier ineffective. Overcome all 3 problems, and they were good soldiers.
Patton vs Rommel
- Thread starter alcal
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What Rommel showed was that it was not the Italian soldier that was the problem, it was the equipment, training, and leadership that combined to make the soldier ineffective. Overcome all 3 problems, and they were good soldiers.
I don't think anyone can blame Rommel for basically, being a German general. The fact that he has been overplayed should not detract from the fact that he was a pretty good one. He earned this by staying in the news in North Africa for a long time in a see-saw campaign against some pretty good British, Australian, South African, NZ, Free French and Indian units - neither side had a clear advantage for most of it, but they learned to respect eachother. I don't think you can make the case that Patton was a better general because he 'beat' Rommel. The decisive victory after all was El-Alamein. But he was basically dealt a losing hand; outnumbered 2 to 1, even granted by then the Italian soldiers were very solid in battle. By the time Patton seriously engaged Rommel, their fuel supplies were being flown in by Junkers 52s.
It also doesn't matter too much what Patton's, or Rommel's personal opinions or anecdotes were, it is their actions that counted. And in this respect, if Rommel ignored orders from the Gestapo to round up Jews, and was part of the Valkyrie plot, then he actually took the risks to end it, even if he still felt compelled to defend his country. It actually raises my estimation of him considerably.
This is not to say that Patton was not a good general - what I know I think he was an excellent general, even with his faults. He may have been a loose cannon - but he was a cannon.
It also doesn't matter too much what Patton's, or Rommel's personal opinions or anecdotes were, it is their actions that counted. And in this respect, if Rommel ignored orders from the Gestapo to round up Jews, and was part of the Valkyrie plot, then he actually took the risks to end it, even if he still felt compelled to defend his country. It actually raises my estimation of him considerably.
This is not to say that Patton was not a good general - what I know I think he was an excellent general, even with his faults. He may have been a loose cannon - but he was a cannon.
budweiser
King of the Beers
I don't get all the faux respect for the Italian troops in this thread. They weren't that good (they had a few modern good units). Rommel didn't make them better, he didn't whip them into fighting shape out in the desert. He relied on Germans to do the fighting and the italians to hold the flanks. The fact is, the Italian's hearts were not in this fight and they acted accordingly.
Patton's 3rd Army in France went further, faster, conquered more territory, killed wounded and captured more enemy soldiers than any other army in history.
Patton's 3rd Army in France went further, faster, conquered more territory, killed wounded and captured more enemy soldiers than any other army in history.
I'll let others speak to the first point, I don't think it is very material to my argument. Suffice to say, those that were in the line after the Axis capture of Tobruk and the 'Gazala Gallop' were a much greater factor than those that faced O'Connor in Operation Compass. But if their heart wasn't in it as you say (and I wouldn't blame them - anytime they had to retreat, all the motor transport got allocated to Germans first), then it made Rommel's task all the more daunting to face the Commonwealth line-up at El Alamein. So how can we say he is a lesser general ?
As for Patton, I think you will find that the 13th Century Mongol leader Subutai, conquered far more territory, inflicted more casualties, and moved faster, and although he ranks high, he is not at the top of most people's lists of great generals.
Given what Patton's 3rd Army had in France:
In terms of the number of men; the amount of supplies and materiel (not just on the field but replacement vehicles etc..); the amount of support in the form of the combined allied airforces and the other American, Commonwealth and Soviet armies beating the snot out of the Germans elsewhere; fighting demoralized enemies getting beaten everywhere who lost much of their heavy equipment and best troops in Normandy and Falaise.
The 3rd Army was also built up by Patton's predecessor, so it isn't like he created the unit from scratch.
Not to say he wasn't a good general. But you can't take his accomplishments in a vacuum. It isn't like his army alone was in France.
The speed at which he advanced compared to others really can't be compared. During most of history armies couldn't move that fast for a sustained time. Just think of the ease of moving a mechanized army around in 1944 compared to Napoleon's in 1812. Its apples of dodos.
In terms of the number of men; the amount of supplies and materiel (not just on the field but replacement vehicles etc..); the amount of support in the form of the combined allied airforces and the other American, Commonwealth and Soviet armies beating the snot out of the Germans elsewhere; fighting demoralized enemies getting beaten everywhere who lost much of their heavy equipment and best troops in Normandy and Falaise.
The 3rd Army was also built up by Patton's predecessor, so it isn't like he created the unit from scratch.
Not to say he wasn't a good general. But you can't take his accomplishments in a vacuum. It isn't like his army alone was in France.
The speed at which he advanced compared to others really can't be compared. During most of history armies couldn't move that fast for a sustained time. Just think of the ease of moving a mechanized army around in 1944 compared to Napoleon's in 1812. Its apples of dodos.
Sofista
Deity
Well, there's Folgore.
Contemporary article on the Italian performance in Africa.
More detailed account on Folgore at El-Alamein (from a gamers' site).
Yeah - Patton was faster than his peers granted, but he wasn't the fastest ever. Subutai was an illustration, his army covered huge distances.
Even compared to his peers: The Germans were hardly mechanized when they were regularly on the offensive). Neither were the British or Soviets (and I believe other US Armies), and he had the most favourable conditions one could ask for, with the possible exception of the Battle of the Bulge. It is still difficult to compare. I wonder how fast France would have lasted in 1940, if the Germans had the American 3rd Army's level of mechanization.
It is just like all the sources that say: British sucked since they didn't succeed in breaking out. It doesn't take into account the differences in the situation that they faced: almost all of the heavy armour and the best German units were stationed around Caen, while the Germans relied on terrain to stop the Americans.
It is just like all the sources that say: British sucked since they didn't succeed in breaking out. It doesn't take into account the differences in the situation that they faced: almost all of the heavy armour and the best German units were stationed around Caen, while the Germans relied on terrain to stop the Americans.
That was obviously
because the Germans felt that it was possible to stop the British (as long as their best units were used) while they felt the Americans were unstoppable (and thus did not waste their most effective units in a lost cause).
Darth_Pugwash
wobble wobble
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I favour Rommel because he had to deal with a much more difficult supply situation, and was generally fighting against superior forces.
Plus he had one of the coolest nicknames that it's possible to have.
Plus he had one of the coolest nicknames that it's possible to have.
Taras Bulba
gone
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I almost wish I read this statement before voting for Patton
I almost wish I read this statement before voting for Patton
It really went downhill for them after the Roman Empire fell apart, didn't it?
alcal
surfin'
They went downhill even before. That's why roman empire fell.
