chazzycat
Deity
- Joined
- Oct 13, 2010
- Messages
- 2,918
One of the things I miss from civ5, is the viability of peaceful OCC games. In particular, a wonder-heavy culture victory. In civ 5, this was consistently viable up to emperor level at least. I'm hoping that option might be back in R&F.
Consider the main limitations currently holding back this approach:
1) District Limit (1 of each type per city)
2) Insufficient Housing available
Basically the district limit is the root of all the problems. Not only are the key outputs of Science & Culture generated from districts, but great person points are tied to them as well. And let's not forget great work slots to boot, which are of course critical to culture victory.
With regards to pure outputs, there are definitely still a lot of issues. OCC is never going to be ideal as long as spamming campuses and/or theater squares gives you so much return. However, they are at least starting to add some output boosts to individual cities, which should help:
- Pingala with "librarian" ability: +20% science and culture in city
- St. Basil's Cathedral: +100% religious tourism in city
- Kilwa Kisiwana: +15% or +30% to any type of output, from having 1 or 2 suzerain CS of that type
- Aquatics Center: +2 tourism per wonder in city
- Reyna's "Curator" ability: double tourism from great works in city
- "Wish you were Here" golden age dedication bonus: grants +50% tourism from wonders with a governor, and +100% tourism to national parks
Some of these are really great. In particular, Reyna's "curator" ability seems tailor-made for OCC. St. Basil's as well, if you're going for the religious/culture combo. And the "Wish you were Here" dedication seems perfect for the end-game final tourism push.
That covers pure yields. For Great People Points, we are also getting some new toys:
- +100% GPP from Pingala and the "grants" ability in a city
- for each cultural alliance (level 3) you get +1 great person point per districts.
We are going to build a lot of wonders, and hopefully get a lot of alliances as well. With only 1 city, all the civs should love you (except Trajan...) so alliances should be easy to come by. Add the points from wonders to the ones from alliances, then double them all via Pingala, and maybe we will finally be able to generate some solid GPP.
When it comes to great work slots:
- National History Museum: +4 slots of any type
- St. Basil's Cathedral: 1 relic slot
That brings the total number of slots possible in 1 city up to 32 by my count (including relics, no unique civ bonuses). The 4 new slots being any type gives you some flexibility as well. Keep in mind Reyna! Those 5 new slots are now worth 10 old slots.
Hopefully, that all will be sufficient to overcome the district limit. But what about #2, housing? Well...we are getting at least 7 early-game housing. Four from the audience chamber, plus three from Temple of Artemis. Seven is a whole lot of housing for the early game, and I think this pretty much solves the pre-neighborhood population bottleneck issue.
If all this isn't enough, we are even getting some production back from failed wonders! In a super wonder-heavy game, that is a nice bonus.
All things considered, I am pretty excited to give this a try. I'm thinking a coastal start with a lot of food & production, (and at least 1 camp resource for Artemis) would be ideal. Colossus, Kilwa, Aquatics Center, and Sydney Opera House seem like they would be good to have.
The Cree seem like they might be the best civ for this. They get extra food production & housing from the UB, a super-scout to get ahead in the early game, and better return from alliances (which you definitely want now). Plus, possible the best part - an extra trade route in the very early game. I think these all line up nicely for OCC. Other candidates:
- France (wonder building boost, culture/tourism from UB, spies come in handy)
- China (wonders, better eurekas, great wall is good usage of hexes in 4th + 5th ring)
- Egypt (wonders, sphinx)
- Australia (extra housing, coastal start, good UB)
Consider the main limitations currently holding back this approach:
1) District Limit (1 of each type per city)
2) Insufficient Housing available
Basically the district limit is the root of all the problems. Not only are the key outputs of Science & Culture generated from districts, but great person points are tied to them as well. And let's not forget great work slots to boot, which are of course critical to culture victory.
With regards to pure outputs, there are definitely still a lot of issues. OCC is never going to be ideal as long as spamming campuses and/or theater squares gives you so much return. However, they are at least starting to add some output boosts to individual cities, which should help:
- Pingala with "librarian" ability: +20% science and culture in city
- St. Basil's Cathedral: +100% religious tourism in city
- Kilwa Kisiwana: +15% or +30% to any type of output, from having 1 or 2 suzerain CS of that type
- Aquatics Center: +2 tourism per wonder in city
- Reyna's "Curator" ability: double tourism from great works in city
- "Wish you were Here" golden age dedication bonus: grants +50% tourism from wonders with a governor, and +100% tourism to national parks
Some of these are really great. In particular, Reyna's "curator" ability seems tailor-made for OCC. St. Basil's as well, if you're going for the religious/culture combo. And the "Wish you were Here" dedication seems perfect for the end-game final tourism push.
That covers pure yields. For Great People Points, we are also getting some new toys:
- +100% GPP from Pingala and the "grants" ability in a city
- for each cultural alliance (level 3) you get +1 great person point per districts.
We are going to build a lot of wonders, and hopefully get a lot of alliances as well. With only 1 city, all the civs should love you (except Trajan...) so alliances should be easy to come by. Add the points from wonders to the ones from alliances, then double them all via Pingala, and maybe we will finally be able to generate some solid GPP.
When it comes to great work slots:
- National History Museum: +4 slots of any type
- St. Basil's Cathedral: 1 relic slot
That brings the total number of slots possible in 1 city up to 32 by my count (including relics, no unique civ bonuses). The 4 new slots being any type gives you some flexibility as well. Keep in mind Reyna! Those 5 new slots are now worth 10 old slots.
Hopefully, that all will be sufficient to overcome the district limit. But what about #2, housing? Well...we are getting at least 7 early-game housing. Four from the audience chamber, plus three from Temple of Artemis. Seven is a whole lot of housing for the early game, and I think this pretty much solves the pre-neighborhood population bottleneck issue.
If all this isn't enough, we are even getting some production back from failed wonders! In a super wonder-heavy game, that is a nice bonus.
All things considered, I am pretty excited to give this a try. I'm thinking a coastal start with a lot of food & production, (and at least 1 camp resource for Artemis) would be ideal. Colossus, Kilwa, Aquatics Center, and Sydney Opera House seem like they would be good to have.
The Cree seem like they might be the best civ for this. They get extra food production & housing from the UB, a super-scout to get ahead in the early game, and better return from alliances (which you definitely want now). Plus, possible the best part - an extra trade route in the very early game. I think these all line up nicely for OCC. Other candidates:
- France (wonder building boost, culture/tourism from UB, spies come in handy)
- China (wonders, better eurekas, great wall is good usage of hexes in 4th + 5th ring)
- Egypt (wonders, sphinx)
- Australia (extra housing, coastal start, good UB)