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[R&F] peaceful culture OCC - making a comeback in R&F?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by chazzycat, Jan 31, 2018.

  1. chazzycat

    chazzycat Deity

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    One of the things I miss from civ5, is the viability of peaceful OCC games. In particular, a wonder-heavy culture victory. In civ 5, this was consistently viable up to emperor level at least. I'm hoping that option might be back in R&F.

    Consider the main limitations currently holding back this approach:
    1) District Limit (1 of each type per city)
    2) Insufficient Housing available

    Basically the district limit is the root of all the problems. Not only are the key outputs of Science & Culture generated from districts, but great person points are tied to them as well. And let's not forget great work slots to boot, which are of course critical to culture victory.

    With regards to pure outputs, there are definitely still a lot of issues. OCC is never going to be ideal as long as spamming campuses and/or theater squares gives you so much return. However, they are at least starting to add some output boosts to individual cities, which should help:
    - Pingala with "librarian" ability: +20% science and culture in city
    - St. Basil's Cathedral: +100% religious tourism in city
    - Kilwa Kisiwana: +15% or +30% to any type of output, from having 1 or 2 suzerain CS of that type
    - Aquatics Center: +2 tourism per wonder in city
    - Reyna's "Curator" ability: double tourism from great works in city
    - "Wish you were Here" golden age dedication bonus: grants +50% tourism from wonders with a governor, and +100% tourism to national parks

    Some of these are really great. In particular, Reyna's "curator" ability seems tailor-made for OCC. St. Basil's as well, if you're going for the religious/culture combo. And the "Wish you were Here" dedication seems perfect for the end-game final tourism push.

    That covers pure yields. For Great People Points, we are also getting some new toys:
    - +100% GPP from Pingala and the "grants" ability in a city
    - for each cultural alliance (level 3) you get +1 great person point per districts.

    We are going to build a lot of wonders, and hopefully get a lot of alliances as well. With only 1 city, all the civs should love you (except Trajan...) so alliances should be easy to come by. Add the points from wonders to the ones from alliances, then double them all via Pingala, and maybe we will finally be able to generate some solid GPP.

    When it comes to great work slots:
    - National History Museum: +4 slots of any type
    - St. Basil's Cathedral: 1 relic slot

    That brings the total number of slots possible in 1 city up to 32 by my count (including relics, no unique civ bonuses). The 4 new slots being any type gives you some flexibility as well. Keep in mind Reyna! Those 5 new slots are now worth 10 old slots.

    Hopefully, that all will be sufficient to overcome the district limit. But what about #2, housing? Well...we are getting at least 7 early-game housing. Four from the audience chamber, plus three from Temple of Artemis. Seven is a whole lot of housing for the early game, and I think this pretty much solves the pre-neighborhood population bottleneck issue.

    If all this isn't enough, we are even getting some production back from failed wonders! In a super wonder-heavy game, that is a nice bonus.

    All things considered, I am pretty excited to give this a try. I'm thinking a coastal start with a lot of food & production, (and at least 1 camp resource for Artemis) would be ideal. Colossus, Kilwa, Aquatics Center, and Sydney Opera House seem like they would be good to have.

    The Cree seem like they might be the best civ for this. They get extra food production & housing from the UB, a super-scout to get ahead in the early game, and better return from alliances (which you definitely want now). Plus, possible the best part - an extra trade route in the very early game. I think these all line up nicely for OCC. Other candidates:
    - France (wonder building boost, culture/tourism from UB, spies come in handy)
    - China (wonders, better eurekas, great wall is good usage of hexes in 4th + 5th ring)
    - Egypt (wonders, sphinx)
    - Australia (extra housing, coastal start, good UB)
     
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  2. Eagle Pursuit

    Eagle Pursuit Scir-Gerefa

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    Civ V was particularly suited to OCC due to it favoring tall play. While R&F seems to be bringing the balance closer to tall than it currently is in Civ VI vanilla, I have my doubts about whether OCC will be feasible.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2018
  3. chazzycat

    chazzycat Deity

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    oh absolutely. National wonders and the tradition tree are a huge part of what made OCC viable in civ 5. I am not 100% convinced it is "back" yet - but we are at least getting some significant improvements in that direction.
     
  4. clapyourhands

    clapyourhands Prince

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    Unstacking of wonders and cities is another thing that's limiting OCC. In V if you settled next to a River you could build the appropriate wonders; in VI you have 1-2 River tiles you can use and have to decide between Districts, wonders, improvements, etc., and once you use one/both tiles you're locked out of river adjacency requirements for the rest of the game. Rivers were just an example, if you used a mountain adjacent tile for a campus then you can't build a mountain adjacent wonder, or something being coast adjacent, city center adjacent, etc. That's a pretty big benefit to having multiple cities encompassing multiple city centers/coast/rivers/mountains/etc. over one.
     
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  5. NegativeZero

    NegativeZero Warlord

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    I'm sure OCC will work at lower difficulties, but I'm excited to see if it will work at higher levels.

    I'll toss out the Khmer as a great contender for OCC in R&F. They should take a more religious approach in order to buy the great people and units needed while using production to build important wonders.

    Their ability to martyr missionaries for relics is a consistent early source of faith and tourism which gets improved with:
    Renya's curator (double Tourism of great works)
    Reliquaries (triple relic Tourism and faith yields)
    St. Basil's (+100% religious Tourism)
    Heritage Tourism Policy (+100% Great Works Tourism) (unlock @ cultural heritage)

    The +2 food and +1 housing for the HS is nice, but the +2 food for each farm adjacent to an aqueduct is the winner here.
    This one city will need to grow a very large population quickly in order to get down districts ASAP and the Khmer's abilities excel at this.
    As portion of the population will be unable to work tiles in the later game due to wonders and districts, having enough food to support specialist slots may be required.

    Faith has gotten better in R&F as you can faith purchase units (if needed) with Grand Master's Chapel while still being in 3rd stage gov. like Democracy.
    Great people whom enhance tourism (mostly merchants) would be purchasable and the Oracle's 25% faith purchase reduction and +2gpp on each specific district will be very handy for this.

    Religious alliances assist in avoiding an accidental religious victory while still granting useful benefits for a culture win.

    Wonders are a big concern as they eat usable tile space with in the city along with districts.
    I think the most ideal wonders to place are:
    Apadana: 2 GW slots, 2 envoys for each wonder (1 tile next to city center)
    Oracle: Patronage of Great People cost 25% less faith. Districts provide +2 Great Person points of their type (1 Hill tile)
    St. Basil's Cathedral: +100% religious tourism (1 tile next to city center)

    If there is a place:
    Kilwa Kisiwani: +3 envoy, +15% CS type boost (1 coastal tile)
    Cristo Redentor: Tourism output from Relics and Holy Cities is not diminished by Enlightenment (1 hill tile)

    What I see challenging for a OCC is the lack of trade routes one city can utilize and era score.
    On larger maps w/ many civs, Players would be unable to maintain +25% tourism for trade routes with a majority even if the Colossus (+1TR) and great Zimbabwe (+1TR) are built.
    One city being the solo generator of era score may not be enough to keep out of a dark age spiral.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2018
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  6. Trengilly

    Trengilly Warlord

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    Well peaceful OCC is already doable. I've managed a China OCC science win on Prince and a Japan OCC science on King. Both were completely peaceful.

    The new R&F enhancements should make it much easier. I'm sure OCC on Emperor will be possible -- Immortal or Deity who knows.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2018
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  7. Thormodr

    Thormodr Servant of Civ Supporter

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    I loved OCC back in cIV. I even participated in a succession game for one of them. Lots of fun. :love:

    I have never tried in Civ VI because I assumed it was not possible.

    Thanks for the reassurance. I'll give it a go once Rise and Fall comes out. :thumbsup:
     
  8. Cagarustus

    Cagarustus Prince

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    Please explain what OCC is?
     
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  9. miaasma

    miaasma Prince

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    one city challenge
     
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  10. agonistes

    agonistes wants his subs under ice!

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    Pretty sure nearly every type of victory, including cultural, has been achieved on deity already for civ vi in a occ.

    Possibly not religious.

    100% sure cultural has. 100% sure domination has.

    There are posts scattered around about the various games.

    Anyways... occ is very doable already.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2018
  11. UWHabs

    UWHabs Deity

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    It's still so hard with one single district to get enough to really power forward. Some potential new entries:
    Seondok might have a chance, with the extra early science from the Seowon, as well as some extra science and food if you place it right. But it probably won't help much late, since you're probably going to wonder a large portion of tiles. She will get a 10% bonus to science and culture though with the governor, so not terrible.
    The Cree will obviously be nice to have an extra trade route, which could be big, as could the extra food from trade routes. Hard to say if the Mekewap fits into a OCC very well.
    The Chemamull can give a bunch of culture and later tourism, but no other Mapuche bonus really helps.
    Scotland could certainly be interesting, if you can stay happy they also have a permanent science bonus. And if you can get a good civ to just constantly declare liberation wars and suing for peace, they could have a permanent production bonus.

    You also have the advantage in OCC that you can promote the governors to the max, since you can likely ignore most of them. Then it's just a question of whether you swap them out at all, or just stick one of them there and hold them. Seems like you have to run Pingala early on for sure, and likely keep them in if you're going for a science win for the space production. But is it worth it swapping at some out for Liang to get city parks? or Reyna for the tourism?
     
  12. Thormodr

    Thormodr Servant of Civ Supporter

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    Uhhh...how would one get a domination victory in a OCC?

    You can’t raze Capitals, after all.
     
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  13. clapyourhands

    clapyourhands Prince

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    I guess it's theoretically possible, and I use theoretically in the most literal way possible, if you line up your units around every capital such that you take every single one within a turn; technically you will own more than 1 city by the end of the turn, but you never actually end your turn since the game autoquits once you take the last capital, and you get no yields from any of the taken cities since your turn never ended.
     
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  14. Boyan_Sun

    Boyan_Sun Warlord

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  15. agonistes

    agonistes wants his subs under ice!

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    Well, we debated about that. At first, some folks said a deity occ dom was impossible due to difficulty, so I did a quick one just to prove you could do it. I kept the capitals, but only used them to defend themselves and build amenities for themselves. It was agreed that this was okay for the time being. Then someone else did it using a mod that allowed you to raze capitals. Obviously whether its technically a occ is debatable, but those are the only options.

    The point is, occ's are doable. The 1 district per city thing doesn't prevent a victory.

    edit: I believe someone else did it using the aforementioned technique: sieging each capital then occupying them all on the last turn. So whichever way you consider the truest possible occ deity dom, its been done.

    @Boyan_Sun 's link is not the only example of a cultural victory. I started one too, but someone beat me to it using Kongo. I was going with US.

    For peaceful occ's, I would suggest Russia, or Persia. Russia and Persia seem to be the best at everything. Kongo is okay, but Kongo can't generate faith, and for a cultural vc, I like to use faith to buy up all the early great writers. Personally, I think Kongo is overrated. But I'm a heavy religion player.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2018
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  16. chazzycat

    chazzycat Deity

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    ok I checked those other threads. Am I missing something? It seems the only OCC cultural victory was on TSL map with hand selected opponents. When I say "viable" I mean it can work on normal games on randomized maps.
     
  17. agonistes

    agonistes wants his subs under ice!

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    Yea, you are. I mean that kindly. There should be a post with a Kongo game somewhere too. To me an occ win should be standard everything, random everything, except maybe the map type, and you can pick your civ.

    Anyway, there are at least two threads on the subject. Try the tactics forum, or whatever its called.

    The Kongo game used wonders for extra great work slots, and resorts.
     
  18. chazzycat

    chazzycat Deity

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  19. agonistes

    agonistes wants his subs under ice!

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    Hmmm, I missed that! I'm so sorry!

    Now I'm not as bothered he beat me to it!

    Guess I can still do one then. He went Kongo, and I can see why, but I like Russia. And Persia is an awesome occ civ too.

    edit: but it may have to wait until after a few regular games with rnf
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2018
  20. leandrombraz

    leandrombraz Emperor

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    You can have only one of each type of alliance, so you will get only one cultural alliance and 5 alliances total.
     

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