Peloponnesian War Scenario Development Thread

Well, for wonders, I think maybe Temple of Poseidon, Pantheon, Temple of Zeus, Collosus etc. Please consult my above post. Does Athenian Democracy need any changes from civ democracy??? For resouyrces, should silver be added? What about Techs...We definately need to start sketching out a tech tree. I'll begin after homework today, but if u can think of any appropriate techs, suggestions are very welcome! :D
 
What time period do you want it to last?

As for Democracy vs. Athenian Democracy, I think it would be fine. Although, because of Locked War (I assume?), extra WW over Sparta will hurt them.
 
Ummm...The time period is the Peloponnesian War era...:p
 
well, that is the difficulty... there is classical Athens, the Athens of its height where Pericles is the greatr Archon, and becon of stregth, or there is just after the peloponesian war, afthe expulsion of the 30 tyrants- which made Athens a stronger democracy...but in my opinon, sine the mod should stretch to the rise of macedon, either could be appropreate...
 
I was wondering if it began exactly when war started and ended at the fall of Athens, or covered the time period around it (The Defeat of the Persians to Philip of Macedon conquering Greece)

I just read today that the Etruscans helped the Athenians on the siege of Syracuse, so maybe they should be in the game.
 
Well, maybe it could stretch to the rise of macedon, but I'm mostly interested in illustrating the military conflict of Athens and Sparta... Good idea w/ the Etruscans, Louie! :goodjob: Of course, the more civs, the more UUs and Leaderheads...How's the map comin, Xen?
 
Originally posted by Ossric

Draft Limit: 2 or 3?
i would say no draft limit, the Spartans lived their lives to fight, backing out was considered a shame.

Real spartan "citizens", yes, but the bulk of the population was not allowed to carry weapons. It happened during this war for lack of troops once but Spartans were really not happy about it. The ilotes made the bulk of the population and they could easily revolt if given weapons (cf the Messenian wars) so I don't think draft should be real easy in Sparta. It should probably be even easier in Athenes, though causing more WW.

My 2 cents.
 
Was Pericles ever Archon? At any rate, he based his power on the magistracy of "Strategos", or "General", to which he was repeatedly elected (the Archons were chosen by lot), so I think that's a more appropriate title.
 
if a man proved himself at ebing incompitent in a role, he could be ejected, and replecement set up in the old position (this went for everythin, not just Archonship)-its easy to see how ANY ONE mightbe considerd incompitent for a job when compared to Pericles... besides, Archon si the more impressive titel in my opinion :p
 
the map goes slowwly- sorry, but i have the PSAT's today! so perhaps a little later I can get some more work done, but I thnk that so far I have fleshed out Athenian territory a bit, and soon I will be gin Italy, and Carthaginian territory as well... ;)
 
Yes, Xen, Archon does sound spiffy! :cooool: So, Xen, how are the cities in Turkey comin' along? I know I left ya with a huuuuuge void there...:( Are we goin' to change the Spartan Draft Limit? How's about to 1 and no change in citizen mood, since Spartans lived/died for state?
 
depends on what unit your planning on making the draftee...

as for Turkey (Anatolia will be mor elikelly when irefer to it, its a habit somtimes...) sint coming along as well, I'm having trouble finde good maps of the time Persia in the area- If I have to I'll use a hellenistic era map, and if none of those surfacem that hittite map (I know the the anantolianb coast line well enough to put all the missing cites on anyway...

the main trouble with it is Perisa needs to be big, but to be true to history, can cant be all that powerful... I'll lets you guys make the choices on persian troops though, since this has turned into a nice group project :)
 
Well, I don't think Anatolia was that inhabited of the coastline, was it? The draftee unit I thought could change from civ to civ, like for Sparta it may be Perioikoi hoplite, thebes= Theban Hoplite, Athens=Epheboi Corps, or we might be able to get Kryten to make a so-called "draftee hoplite" if it's historically accurate.

P.S. I've always wondered what Kryten would look like as a leaderhead...:lol:
 
anatolia is all turkey, or at least most of it :)

I think the draft holite should be the basic hoplite...
 
Originally posted by Xen
depends on what unit your planning on making the draftee...

A good point!

Actual Spartan Hoplites should definately be 'elite' (i.e +1 hit point), while the bulk of the rest of the Lacedaemonian heavy infantry were the Perioikoi Hoplites (who came from Lacedaemonian cities other than Sparta), and were about as good as 'normal' Hoplites.
But in addition, the Spartans would sometimes arm their 'Helots' (low class 'serfs') in emergencies....
....perhaps THESE could be the 'draftees', and it is the drafting of them that causes 'War Weariness' amongst the Lacedaemonians, thus representing the unrest and anxious grumbling of the true Spartans about giving the Helots arms.
(I know, I know....you now want a 'Armed Helot' unit as well! :crazyeye:
"Leave it with me" ;) )

As for Persia and the rest of Asia Minor.....
The Persians were busy during this war with their own rebellions and revolts, especially in far off Media, Bactria, and Egypt, which is why they were content to let the Greeks fight it out amongst themselves.
You know, it is possible to make the Persians rich without them having a lot of cities on the map.
You could either give them improvements/Wonders that generate lots of cash (a renamed 'Adam Smith Trading Company' wonder for example), or, have the Persian units costing NO maintainence, which would lead to them having large numbers of mostly weak and useless units.......which sounds about right for them. :)
 
For an overview of the war between 431 to 404 BC, I STRONGLY urge everybody of have a read of this one page on this site:-

http://www.warhorsesim.com/epw_hist.html

....it is jam packed with information. :)

One of the main problems of trying to recreate this war as a Civ3 scenario is going to be the proximity of Athens & Sparta. If we are not careful, then the AI is just going to march against the enemy capital right from the start, and will just keep slugging away until it is taken.

How the actual war was played-out was something like this:-
Every year, Sparta invaded Attica, burnt the fields right up to the walls of Athens, but were unable to take the city, so marched home again for the winter (the Spartans hated city walls: walls do not fear the famous Spartan reputation, and they will not run away in fright ;) ). Meanwhile, the Athenians were unable to capture Sparta, even though she had no walls (Spartan Hoplites behind a wooden barricade were just as good).
So it was a war upon each other allies, in an attempt to strip away each others support.

One way of simulating this is to make each captical almost impossible to capture, because of defensive bonuses (even at the wars end in 404 BC Athens was not occupied....she surrendered on terms, had her 'Long Walls' to the port of Piraeus torn down, and a pro-Spartan government installed....but was NOT captured).

As 'Flood Plains' will not be needed on the map, perhaps these could be used as the site of both Athens & Sparta, with a massive defensive bonus of say 400 or 500! :eek:
This would make the capture of the enemy captial an almost impossible task, forcing it to be a 'war on the allies' to gain points before the scenario ends through sheer exhaustion after some 27 years of conflict (if one side or the other left their capital weakly defended however, then there would still be a chance of it falling).
Plus, as Louis XXIV pointed out, this would in addition cause the odd 'plauge' and population drop to break out....as it did in reality.

Just a thought. :)
 
One other info (though my previous post looks like it went unnoticed :o ) : Sparta did not have walls. They refused walls because it would hamper the arms of their soldiers. Actually they started building walls around their 4 villages (Sparta was not really a city) during the hellenistic periods, mostly while fearing Pyrrhus of Epire so much later than the Peloponesian war.

About the coasts of Anatolia. Well, stricto sensu, Anatolia refers to the hilly plateau of inner Turkey.
So the coast is not exactly Anatolian. But it is definitely an important part of the Greek world. It probably had more Greek population than mainland Greece and cities such as Milet had been among the most proeminent Greek cities during the "colonization" period. If you need city preplacement, you can send me a map and I will put accurately all cities you need for the scenario.
 
Okay...Kryten, the problem with walls with 500% bonus is that this is a victory point location game...Making the cities hard to capture would make the game basically "Keep fighting and keep your score above the other guy before time runs out." I may add a slight defensive bonus just for challenge. Now Xen knows to take walls off Spartan cities. We really need to start drawing up a map of techs. I need to know the 1st row of techs to get started--Anyone?
 
Originally posted by Amenhotep7
...Kryten, the problem with walls with 500% bonus is that this is a victory point location game...Making the cities hard to capture

No, no, no.....I think that you have misunderstood me.
I was not suggesting that city walls have a huge bonus, but that Flood Plain tiles have it.
And the only two Flood Plain tiles on the entire map would be the one underneath the city of Athens, and another under the city of Sparta.
(In fact, I think that city walls & large cities should have their bonus REDUCED from 50% to say 25%, or it might be too hard to capture any cities)

After all, is it not strange that in a war lasting for some 27 years, it never once entered the Spartans mind to say to themselves "....'ere, if we storm the city of Athens, then we could end this war overnight!" :lol:
Either we today are a lot more clever than the Spartans were, OR, we are missing part of the equation. ;)

For whatever reason, neither side made a direct assault on their opponents capital city.....even though it is the most obvious thing to do.
Shouldn't the scenario reflect this fact?

Of course, another way of achieving the same aim is to give both Athens & Sparta half a dozen Hoplite units at the start of the game with zero movement points already stationed in their capital, and not allowing them to build any new ones. These "Garrison Hoplites" or "City Militia" would also help to discourage a direct assault upon the enemy's centre of power. :)
 
Ohhhhhhh!:blush: Sorry, Kryten! :D Yeah, I think the Garrison Hoplite should be the Civ3 hoplite...This is a very good idea, Kryten. Now I just need to know what techs to flesh out...As I said a few posts ago...I know what techs we have, but we'll need to know what the first generation will be, and then I can start fleshing out the tech tree myself.
 
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