Amenhotep7
Spartiate
Don't be dettered, Greek Stud...Next advice ya give, just make it Peloponnesian War Era.
Peloponnesian War Scenario Development Thread
- Thread starter Amenhotep7
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A- the ENTIRE Anatolian cost, with the exception of the far south eastern portion was Ethnic europen due to the Greek colonies in anciet times- I cant think of a very good reason why that would have changed due to turks...
B- unlike most areas of the empire, Anatolia was an area that activelly attreacted Romans of all classes to emiigrate to the area, due to its general economic success- and when you look at maps, there are a good deal of "Ceasarea's" all over the place
Mongoloid Cow
Great Khan
Turks are not ethnic Europeans; nor are they true Turks. They are Ghuzz descent but they by now are starting to be included as 'European' because they have a little bit of their country in Europe.
Greek Stud, if you write a long post; its better to do it in Notepad or some other little program and save it as you do it in case that does happen or your internet connection cuts out. Although at the time of the war, Macedonia was not considered Greek by any account; that only happened way after the end of the Diodoch period centuries later.
Greek Stud, if you write a long post; its better to do it in Notepad or some other little program and save it as you do it in case that does happen or your internet connection cuts out. Although at the time of the war, Macedonia was not considered Greek by any account; that only happened way after the end of the Diodoch period centuries later.
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
The reasons Sicily (or maybe call it Syracuse) is a unique civ is simple. Of the major players in the war, Athens (and her allies) and Sparta (and her allies) are, of course, the 2 obvious choices.
Their "allies" usually means the colonies and smaller city-states that supported them in the war. Athens had the Delian League, which contributed vast amounts of money to Athens (originally it whent to the Treasury on Delos, but, later, the treasury was moved to Athens and Athens began to fund its massive building projects, such as the Parthenon and its Longwalls).
Sparta formed its own league to protect itself against Athens. Although Syracuse was an allied state, it was not a minor one, and is almost as similar to Athens as it is to Sparta. Syracuse had a good navy (it needed a navy for its constant wars with Carthage), its navy was not as good as Athens, but it was much better than Sparta, which had none. It also was wealthy, again, not as wealthy as Athens, but better than Sparta, which really didn't have any money (one of the reasons it didn't have a navy).
So those are the reasons it is different enough to be its own entity in the game (although it would be allied to Sparta).
Maybe the faction/civ should be called Syracuse to emphasize it is Syracuse.
Their "allies" usually means the colonies and smaller city-states that supported them in the war. Athens had the Delian League, which contributed vast amounts of money to Athens (originally it whent to the Treasury on Delos, but, later, the treasury was moved to Athens and Athens began to fund its massive building projects, such as the Parthenon and its Longwalls).
Sparta formed its own league to protect itself against Athens. Although Syracuse was an allied state, it was not a minor one, and is almost as similar to Athens as it is to Sparta. Syracuse had a good navy (it needed a navy for its constant wars with Carthage), its navy was not as good as Athens, but it was much better than Sparta, which had none. It also was wealthy, again, not as wealthy as Athens, but better than Sparta, which really didn't have any money (one of the reasons it didn't have a navy).
So those are the reasons it is different enough to be its own entity in the game (although it would be allied to Sparta).
Maybe the faction/civ should be called Syracuse to emphasize it is Syracuse.
Mongoloid Cow
Great Khan
Xen, just because someone has white skin and blonde hair doesn't make them European. There are many people in the world with blonde hair and white skin which are not European, nor are descended from any. Its just that most are European.
There are many people in the world with blonde hair and white skin which are not European, nor are descended from any. Its just that most are European.
The Last Conformist
Irresistibly Attractive
Some scholars will tell you the Greeks in Europe came there from Asia Minor ...
That be as it may, but Greek language and culture is hardly proof of European ancestry.
And the term "ethnic European" does not mean much. The Anatolian peoples - Hettites, Luvians, Lycians, etc - were probably closely related to the Indo-European peoples of the Balkans.
(Of course, most ethnic Greeks in modern Turkey were thrown out in the 1920s, but after the better part of a millennium of interbreeding, that hardly affected the genetic make-up of the population in any significant way.)
But that hardly amounted to much demographically - Roman colonists usually made up only a small urban elite.
Even by the (to a Swede) extremely liberal Turkish definition of "blond", blondes are not exactly common in Turkey, actually. As for light skin, that's not exactly a European privilege.
Would you claim that white-skinned, blond, blue-eyed Berbers are also of European ethnicity?
The Last Conformist
Irresistibly Attractive
The indigenuous population of NW Africa was apparently perfectly "European" in appearance - at least Egyptian sources describe them as blue-eyed and blond-haired. There are still some Berber and Tuareg groups among whom such traits are common.
BTW, you appear to use "ethnic European" to mean "Caucasoid", which is a bit confusing. The word "ethnic" refers properly to culture, not to race.
, I'll make sure to refer to what I am talking about as caucasian from now on 
Patroklos
Deity
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Hey all,
In all reality it is likely that the only "Greeks" left are on the Aegean islands. During the Byzantine's death throughs there was a good 200-250 years where Byzantium consisted of nothing more than Constantinople and some isolated cities in Asia Minor and Greece. Slavic invaders controled all of the Greek countryside while the Greeks/Byzantines simply holed up in their cities. Slavs and Greeks outside the cities interbreed so much that they are historically considered to have been assimilated into the slavic ethnic and racial groups. At the fall of the Byzantines the population of the cities was so low that Byzantinists just write them off (so says Professor Biship and all her books, great lady to study under). So, while I don't wish to hit the Greek pride at all, ther is little genetic like to the current inhabitants of Greece and the people of antiquity.
-Pat
In all reality it is likely that the only "Greeks" left are on the Aegean islands. During the Byzantine's death throughs there was a good 200-250 years where Byzantium consisted of nothing more than Constantinople and some isolated cities in Asia Minor and Greece. Slavic invaders controled all of the Greek countryside while the Greeks/Byzantines simply holed up in their cities. Slavs and Greeks outside the cities interbreed so much that they are historically considered to have been assimilated into the slavic ethnic and racial groups. At the fall of the Byzantines the population of the cities was so low that Byzantinists just write them off (so says Professor Biship and all her books, great lady to study under). So, while I don't wish to hit the Greek pride at all, ther is little genetic like to the current inhabitants of Greece and the people of antiquity.
-Pat
Amenhotep7
Spartiate
Okay, this thread's gettin' OT...Let's get back On Topic...
The Last Conformist
Irresistibly Attractive
OT, you say? Didn't notice that ... But in the 5th C BC the Turks' (linguistic) ancestors probably lived in Mongolia or thereabouts, so I guess you're right.
I assume Athenian allies on Sicily will not be included in the Syracuse-led 'Sicilian' civ?
But in the 5th C BC the Turks' (linguistic) ancestors probably lived in Mongolia or thereabouts, so I guess you're right.I assume Athenian allies on Sicily will not be included in the Syracuse-led 'Sicilian' civ?
Amenhotep7
Spartiate
If certain cities were mostly to completely pro-Athenian, and lasted long, then yes...
The Last Conformist
Irresistibly Attractive
Google being most unhelpful, I cannot ATM find any map or other resource showing the allegiances of Sicilian cities.
Segesta was allied to Athens, but I'm fairly certain it wasn't the only one. Some cities in mainland Italy were also more or less seriously allied to one side or other.
How I wish I had my father's library within reach! Indeed, how I wish I had a single historical atlas at hand!
Segesta was allied to Athens, but I'm fairly certain it wasn't the only one. Some cities in mainland Italy were also more or less seriously allied to one side or other.
How I wish I had my father's library within reach! Indeed, how I wish I had a single historical atlas at hand!
I have a map of major city political alliances- there were relativelly few on either side, but Sparta, with Syracuse on its side, dominated, while on the mainalnd there were more proAthenian states (perhaps due to Athenina "pan hellenic" colony at Thurii)
The Last Conformist
Irresistibly Attractive
If that's an electronic map, I'd love to have a copy.
Amenhotep7
Spartiate
So will Segesta be it's own civ???What should it be, then??? Pro-Athenian Sicilians???
Greek Stud
Prince
I only have a second, but Syracuse was founded by the Corinthians. At least on the scenario I put together they are under them. They were a very strong force yes. But I'm assuming the only reason the allied with Athens was due to the bullying Athens did to Corinth. And most Sicilian and Italian colonies traded through Taratano then Korkyra and into Corinth & Patra. That was the maintrade route.
I'll write more soon.
Xen don't worry about how you respond. Greeks are much more aggressive in their responses so I didn't find it offense. I am strong Greek. OPA! Tha peno retsina ya tin patritha! (I shall drink restina in the name of our country) brief retsina description. Taste: turpretine Effect: turpretine or poison
I'll write more soon.
Xen don't worry about how you respond. Greeks are much more aggressive in their responses so I didn't find it offense. I am strong Greek. OPA! Tha peno retsina ya tin patritha! (I shall drink restina in the name of our country) brief retsina description. Taste: turpretine Effect: turpretine or poison
Amenhotep7
Spartiate
Hmm....VERY GOOD, GREEK STUD!!! I really think we could use this info... If you are interested in Greek Scenarios, don't worry...After Peloponnesian War, I plan the Trojan War, Persian War, (maybe) Spartan-Theban Hegemony, Rise of Macedon,...
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