Peloponnesian War Scenario Development Thread

[Yoda Power]

Kryten those are amazing. One question though. What exactly is a Armed Helot?

 

[Kryten]

Originally posted by Yoda Power
One question though. What exactly is a Armed Helot?

The lowest rung in the Spartan/Lacedaemonian caste society were the Helot serfs of the Messenian region, in the western Peloponnese. Conquered in the 1st & 2nd Messenian Wars (740 - 720 BC and 680 - 650 BC), these Helots had almost no rights whatsoever and were tied to the land on which they were born. About the only difference between them and slaves was that they couldn't be sold. Having Helots perpetually toiling on the farms freed the Spartites from manual labour and allowed them to concentrate entirely on training for war, making the Spartan soldier feared throughout Greece and beyond.
However, the true Spartites were always in the minority, and their numbers declined over the centuries, so much so that there were only about 5,000 of them by 500 BC, falling to less than a 1,000 by about 370 BC. To increase the size of their armies, the Spartans would sometimes reluctantly arm and 'draft' some of their Helots with the promise of allowing them their freedom (which was not always fulfilled).
Following the Theban victory over the Spartans at the battle of Leuctra in 371 BC, the Helots were finally freed to form their own state, and this effectively broke the back of Lacedaemonian society, leading to the decline and eventual downfall of Sparta.

Hmmm....I might use this as a Civilopeadia entry.

 

[Louis XXIV]

Here's an interesting, but unfortunately pointless peice of information I just found recently about Carthage and Alcibiades

http://www.barca.fsnet.co.uk/carthage-early-history.htm

Alcibiades talked much of invading them when he had done with Sicily, and the young men of his set were at one time always drawing plans of Carthage in the dust of the market-place at Athens; but the Sicilian expedition failed.

 

[Amenhotep7]

Well, while Kryten is soon to release his units, let's discuss armies...I want to contrast Army/Navy sizes in terms of units. How many ground/naval units approximately???

 

[Xen]

there are neough ships lying around to make three ship upgardes, and a ship produced py the Persian allince

troop wise, we basically have everything, that being Archers,Peltasts,Hoplites,Swordsmen, and a few Persian units running around, all we really need is a Greek horsmen of the non-Alexandrian companion type

 

[Amenhotep7]

Xen, thisis wonderful, but what I really need isw the approximate # of pre-placed units.

 

[_Philospher_]

On the side of Athens were the Plataeans, Chians, Lesbians, Messenians, Corkyraeans, Zakynthians, Akarnanians as well as the towns of the coast of Asia and Thrace and all the isles of Aegean, except Melos and Thera. The Athenian troops were 29,000 hoplites, 1200 horsemen and 1600 archers and her navy was 300 triremes without counting those of her allies. The Chians, Corkyraeans and Lesbians supplied shipping. Archidamos forces (Spartan) which entered Attica consisted from about 60,000 to 100,000 men.

That was ruffly the amount of Athenian/Allied and Spartan Forces in the first invasion of Attica (431 B.C.). Website: http://www.sikyon.com/Athens/ahist_eg03.html

Maybe this will help?

 

[Amenhotep7]

That'll help. Well, since that topic sparked no real convo, I'll open the topic for wonder EFFECTS. We've a list of wonders, but no effects.

Rules: You CAN NOT contribute a new wonder. That case is closed. Please contribute EFFECTS for them. I'll pull up a list tomorrow. Sleepy-time.

 

[_Philospher_]

That'll help. Well, since that topic sparked no real convo, I'll open the topic for wonder EFFECTS. We've a list of wonders, but no effects.

You only gave it a day, have more patience . Also, perhaps we should compile information we already know about each wonder and from that create effects. For example: Take the Parthenon.

We know it was built during the golden age of Athens and was a symbol of Athenian wealth, success, and recently gained power.
Imagine if you were a citizen of Athens at its greatest height. Wouldn’t you be proud to see such a glorious monument hang over your city? Not only that, but it is a temple dedicated to your patron goddess, Athena. So wouldn't that give you a feeling of "divine" protection from the goddess? So, what can we take from this? Simple: the citizens were more happy and more patriotic to their city, because of such a monument. And if anything else, it would attract a larger population to Athens. So using all that, I would either have the Parthenon make a decent amount of citizens happy (3 or 4) or have +2 city growth instead of +1. A larger population of Athens would make the “plague” option in conquest more effective and more frequent as well as keeping with historical accuracy.

Anyway, just my two cent.

 

[Amenhotep7]

I really like that idea, _Philosopher_! We've got one down, lots more to go! Watch this space, because within the hour, I'm pulling up a wonder list.

Edit: Okay, so within 2 hours. Here y'are.

Great Theatre
Oracle of Dodona
Oracle of Delphi
Statue of Zeus
Olympic Games
Spartan Military Code or Agoge
*Parthenon (bye bye Temple of Athena)
Long Walls of Piraeus
Erechthleum (courtesy of Greek-Stud to replace Acropolis)
Mines of Amphipolis
Marble Quarries of Thasos
Great Port of Byzantium
Delian Treasury
Great Harbor
Spartan Defense
Council of Ephors or Great Rhetra
Isthmian Ship Track (Maybe a better name)


*=we have an effect. Ideas?

 

[Amenhotep7]

BUMP

 

[Louis XXIV]

Can you post who owns each wonder at the start of the game (or if the need to be built)?

 

[The Last Conformist]

No new wonders? Then I propose we rename Spartan Defense to "Spartan Military Society", or perhaps to whatever Lycurgus' edict was called - "The Great Retra" or something like that? - and have it be the Spartan Hoplite-spawning thing.

 

[_Philospher_]

Here are list of effects that have already been mentioned...


Great Theatre: Shakspeare's theater effect with 8 or 7 happy citizens in city built.


Oracle of Delphi: reduces war weariness/ does NOT double temple effects/ also a happiness penalty in all for capturing sacred site.

Oracle of Dodana: Reduces War Weariness (?)

Delian Treasury: Stock Market effect, Treasury earns %5

Mines of Amphipolis: Collosus effet/ +50% tax revenue (improvments)

Olympic Games: Reduce war Weariness( I had suggested this a while back, but I'm not to sure...)

Spartan Military Society or Great Rhetra: Spawn Spartan Hoplites

Long Walls: A small wonder wich can be rebuilt and has a higher defense value then the regular wall. (I think this is correct)

More?

 

[Louis XXIV]

For Longwalls, as I said awhile ago.

Make it a city improvement that requires a special resource (this resource is only under Athens) and needs the resource in the city radius.

Don't give it a bombard defense, or it will be treated like Walls, and disapear at size 6.

I would give it something like a 100% defense bonus. Combined with the size bonus (If Athens is size 13, this bonus is pretty high) Athens will be very hard to kill.

 

[Amenhotep7]

Oh ya! Sorry, LC...Yes, here are 2 new wonder's who's effects have been hammered out.

Persian Alliance
Spartan Hoplite-making-thingy (Psst. I think we need a better name.)

 

[Louis XXIV]

Why not make that the Agoge?

 

[Amenhotep7]

Sounds good, Lou. Yes, I will tell you which civs get which wonders l8r...Watch this space.

 

[Amenhotep7]

Great Theatre -Syracuse
Oracle of Dodona-?
Oracle of Delphi-Delphi
Statue of Zeus-Sparta
Olympic Games-Sparta?
Spartan Military Code or Agoge-Sparta
*Parthenon (bye bye Temple of Athena)-Delain League
Long Walls of Piraeus-Delian League
Erechthleum (courtesy of Greek-Stud to replace Acropolis)-all?
Mines of Amphipolis-Delian League
Marble Quarries of Thasos-DelainLeague
Great Port of Byzantium-Dleian League
Delian Treasury-Delian League
Great Harbor-Delian League
Spartan Defense-(sparta)
Council of Ephors or Great Rhetra-(Sparta)
Isthmian Ship Track (Maybe a better name)-Delian League?

I see an imbalance here.

 

[The Last Conformist]

Elis, where the Olympic games where held, were pretty much a Spartan satellite at this time, so that's clearly for Sparta.

And the Isthmian Ship Track was at Corinth, so it goes to the Peloponnesians.