Persian History

[TheDervish]

Am I totally tripping, or does the guy in the "library" sound effect say "dorose"?

 

[shahreevar]

Okay, you brought it up so as a good Greek (partial, anyway) I have to respond: Marathon. Thermopylae. Salamis. Plataea. Cunaxa (okay, that was an intramural on your part, but our guys kicked tail).

Notice I'm not mentioning Guagamela or Granicus. You have a legitimate gripe about Civ's Persian "history", but we're stuck with a fascist Macedonian psychopath as our only leaderhead. Was Pericles not available? At least someone Greek?

Oh, and can anyone explain why the language is Farsi, not Parsi? The name "Persian" comes from the Pars province, right? So I would assume the language would be Parsi. Unless the name came to English in Arabic and they replaced the P with an F. Anyway... always was curious about that.

true, the greeks did defeat the iranians(the Vietnam war anyone???), although the number of the persian army was not 1mil. also i dont think the people themselves were really at war with each other, the greeks were fascinated with the persians and viseversa.(or maybe this is wishfull thinking, but i think the two nations had a lot to learn from one another)
but finally to anwer your question the language was Parsi, but because in arabic there is no P sound, it became Farsi (arabic for persia is Al-Faris), Arabic was the lingua franca of the Islamic world, and Persian was officially illegal for some time (although people indeed spoke it, it was not written)
the early iranian-muslim scholars wrote in Arabic.

oh and i do think they should have a GREEK leader, not a mecedonian one!! ( his chin is too big lol
and the movie alexander was
p.s. you would be surprized of the greek words that are used in modern persian, e.g. oghyanoos (ocean, i think okeanus in greak, not sure about the spelling)

 

[Xshayathiya]

although the number of the persian army was not 1mil. also i dont think the people themselves were really at war with each other, the greeks were fascinated with the persians and viseversa.(or maybe this is wishfull thinking, but i think the two nations had a lot to learn from one another)

The army was said to be 5 million by Herodotus, since herodotus wrote his book years after the wars, this estimate is considered to be far exagerated. A modern estimate is 100,000. which is still huge.

Well the reason we were at war to begin with is that the greeks were instigating revolution in our asia minor provinces. now if they had been nice and kept to themselves, we wouldnt have invaded them

and the movie alexander was
p.s. you would be surprized of the greek words that are used in modern persian, e.g. oghyanoos (ocean, i think okeanus in greak, not sure about the spelling)

wait untill the Cyrus movie comes out. that should be very good.
And yes, the greek influences on persian and vice versa are indeed many. for example we both have baklava

 

[shahreevar]

wait untill the Cyrus movie comes out. that should be very good.
And yes, the greek influences on persian and vice versa are indeed many. for example we both have baklava

hmmm, i hope so, i heard that they are asking sean connery to paly as cyrus i would be nice to get someone younger, maybe someone who is actually iranian

 

[Ruffin]

.... but finally to anwer your question the language was Parsi, but because in arabic there is no P sound, it became Farsi (arabic for persia is Al-Faris), Arabic was the lingua franca of the Islamic world, and Persian was officially illegal for some time (although people indeed spoke it, it was not written)
the early iranian-muslim scholars wrote in Arabic.

The funny thing to me was always the Philistines. When the Romans sacked Jerusalem in 70AD they renamed the province after the Philistines. But they Romanized it to 'Palestine'. Now the Arabs are using the Roman name Palestine, but pronouncing it with an F... as Filistine. 2500 years of history and the Hebrews are still fighting the Philistines. I keep waiting for David and Goliath.

If you don't have an F in your alphabet, how do you spell "Pfffffttt!"?

oh and i do think they should have a GREEK leader, not a mecedonian one!! ( his chin is too big lol
and the movie alexander was
p.s. you would be surprized of the greek words that are used in modern persian, e.g. oghyanoos (ocean, i think okeanus in greak, not sure about the spelling)

If I start with the Greeks next to me I just quit and start a new game. Alexander is unbearable.

Doesn't surprise me at all about the language. Alexander took to Greek culture like a Hollywood celebrity to French. He wanted to be Greek, but then he forced his generals to marry Persians in an effort to sythesize a new, monolithic Hellenic/Persian culture. It would be interesting to see what would have happened if he'd succeeded.

(Stephen Barnes actually set a couple of books in a world where Alexander lived. The main characters are a Sufi plantation owner in 1800s America and his Irish slave.)

 

[TheDervish]

hmmm, i hope so, i heard that they are asking sean connery to paly as cyrus i would be nice to get someone younger, maybe someone who is actually iranian

I wasn't even aware of a Cyrus the Great movie. Can someone please point me to website, or working title?

Ben Kingsley played at least 1 Iranian role in the past, and I think he mentioned something about being part Iranian or having some tie to Persians. I think he would do better, but then again there's the age factor.

 

[shahreevar]

If you don't have an F in your alphabet, how do you spell "Pfffffttt!"?

the persian alphabet is same as arabic + 4 more letters/sounds i.e.
G... like the G in God
ch... like church
p...like peter
j or zh... like s in pleasure

 

[shahreevar]

I wasn't even aware of a Cyrus the Great movie. Can someone please point me to website, or working title?

Ben Kingsley played at least 1 Iranian role in the past, and I think he mentioned something about being part Iranian or having some tie to Persians. I think he would do better, but then again there's the age factor.

there is no specific web site that i know of. this is more like a rumor, and they say this is most expensive british film ever!!!

ben kingsly btw is indian, he changed he name from and indian name to his current name (screen name)

 

[Xshayathiya]

I wasn't even aware of a Cyrus the Great movie. Can someone please point me to website, or working title?

Ben Kingsley played at least 1 Iranian role in the past, and I think he mentioned something about being part Iranian or having some tie to Persians. I think he would do better, but then again there's the age factor.

The rumers state that Ben Kingsley and Sean Connery were the people initially considered for the part. Currently, the rumers are that connery has got the role and angelina jolie has the part of his empress. The movie will be the most expensive independant brittish movie ever made, with a budget of £50 million. The sultan of brunei is apparently one of the people investing in it. It wouldnt be bad if the Pahlavi family or even the iranian government decide to also invest.

 

[Xshayathiya]

oh and forgot to post: http://www.thezreview.co.uk/comingsoon/c/cyrus.htm

i think the production company Chayaha also has a website with some info on it, cant remember.

 

[Xshayathiya]

the persian alphabet is same as arabic + 4 more letters/sounds i.e.
G... like the G in God
ch... like church
p...like peter
j or zh... like s in pleasure

lol, the old GazhPach (Ahhh the memories from first grade)

 

[KingAl]

1. Please do note that there are more 'barbarians' in Civ 3 which actually should be considered part of a civ. The Minoans (pre-Greeks) and the Seljuk (the name of the Ottomans before Ottoman) spring to mind. Also, some North American tribes are featured as barbarians, while the Iroquois are considered a civ. So, although it's strange and a little offending mayhaps, it might be some comfort for you that other people are offended just as much

Hear hear. I mean, they have Gaul i.e. France, for Gods sake (not meaining any offence). There are certainly many barbarians in the game that are part of or have become civilisations.

P.S.: Someone else may have mentioned this, I've only read page 1 so far.

 

[KingAl]

I am indeed honoured that sid decided to include the Persians in civ. I was very surprised when i first playerd civ3 that they were.

Don't be suprised about Persia's inclusion. Persia was a massive power for an extensive period of time. If any civilisation deserves inclusion, then Persia does.

 

[shahreevar]

lol, the old GazhPach (Ahhh the memories from first grade)

looooooooooool, yeah some thing u can never forget, gachpaj is inscribed into my brain for ever.......

 

[TheDervish]

ben kingsly btw is indian, he changed he name from and indian name to his current name (screen name)

Ah, nevermind then. I know Kingsley played an Iranian colonel in "House of Sand and Fog", though.

 

[cyrusIII85]

I always hated the way they had written the history for Persia in Civ3. They even didnt have the immortals unit right (this is what an immortal actually looks like). I'd hoped they would have fixed it for Civ4, but they haven't. It starts out ok, but at the end it becomes inaccurate, and even a little offensive.

Now if you're not Persian, that paragraph is fine and dandy, but if you are, you know what i'm talking about.

1. The Parthians are considered a Persian dynasty by Persian historians. The way that the game treats them as barbarians and conquerers is totally inaccurate. Them not mentioning this is ok, I can live with it.

2. They just briefly mention the Sassanians, and only talk about their weakness. Not the fact that they beat back Byzantine invasions and took the roman emperor Valerian prisoner. Not mentioning this I can also live with.

3. The Arab Invasion. Now this is the one i can't live with. "Persia (modern Iran) has largely belonged to the Arab world. " Iran is not an Arab country. This statement is literally offensive to me and anyone else who is from Iran.

"The customs and religion of ancient Persia were destroyed and the population absorbed into the surrounding Islamic culture; only a few remnants survive today."
This could not be less inaccurate. If anything, there was a Persian cultural invasion of the Arabs. Thjey dont mention that the greatest Persian philosophers, scientists, poets and minds lived during this era. Khwarazmi, who the word Algebra is named after. Tusi, the astronomer who published the same theories as copernicus, only 400 years before copernicus. Sina, whose medical books are taught in western medical schools, even today. I can go on forever. There aren't only "a few" remnants remaining today. There is about 80 million. Persian cultural practices are observed to this day. The Persian (Farsi) language is spoken by more than 100 million people (Iran, Afghanistan, and Tajikstan, not to mention people in western countries). The Persian new year, a 2500 year old tradition still continues to this day.


Now I realize my tiny voice cant get this fixed, but i had to speak my mind or i was going to explode. This is worse than National Geographics' "Arabian Gulf" incident. If anyone from firaxis reads this, please change it for any upcoming civilisation game. If you need any information, feel free to contact me at sourena@sympatico.ca and i will answer any and all questions.


PS: Oh and while I have your attention how about adding Zoroastariansm as a playable religion? I believe it is significant because it was the world's first monotheistic religion.

LOL...I didn't know that Xshayathiya was also active here! I first met him on the Prince of Persia forums. Does anyone know if he's still active? Anyway, it's SOOOO erie that we mention nearly the exact same things...

 

[The Q-Meister]

You have a legitimate gripe about Civ's Persian "history", but we're stuck with a fascist Macedonian psychopath as our only leaderhead. Was Pericles not available? At least someone Greek?

"Fascist Macedonian psychopath"? Isn't that a wee bit of an exaggeration? Remember we can't put our modern standards on someone that lived in a completely different era; for if we did, EVERYONE of that time period would look like a monster.

BTW, I am pleased to inform you that in all likelihood Pericles will be included as a Greek leader in an upcoming Civ IV expansion pack. I know I will look forward to playing the Greeks as him!

 

[The Q-Meister]

So how are you guys doing with trying to get Firaxis to change the Persian entry for Civ? Has anyone gotten any responses? Also, has anyone here created a more accurate Persian mod (with a more accurate Persian flag, immortal unit, etc) for those of us that want something to play with in the meantime?

 

[atreas]

At first, I agree completely to the fact that each nation should have his real historical notes, not some widely inacurrate notes that just reflect the (usually inacurrate) beliefs of others. This is especially profound for the more ancient nations, who have some thousands years of history behind them. But Persians are not the only one that suffers from this (quite modern and a bit "western" disease). One of my Turk friends told me once that for them it is very irritating (or even insulting) to be considered "Arabs" - so I can really understand all these statements that really reflect the modern lack of knowledge for other's people history.

But some (few) of the other comments in this forum are also equally inaccurate. It makes you wonder if the people writing here have ever read any kind of serious (and, even better, from many different sources) history books. I am trying my best to be a real "citizen of the world", with many friends from many different nations, and I have learnt a very simple rule of thumb: when you try to understand what is the origin of something, study the word itself and it will show you the truth (because each word has an internal meaning only in the language IT BELONGS, as is profound with the word "algebra" that was already noted).

For example, "Persian" has internal interpretation in their own language, so noone else can claim it. The same applies to other words like "Constantine", "Elizabeth", "Victoria", etc. The same applies also to the word "Alexander" - it has an internal meaning to only one language (in fact, it means "he who defends men"). Something very strange is happening here, according to some of the theories of this thread. It makes you wonder why!

Each nation has the right to be what IT WANTS to be, but history cannot be rewritten according to any nation's will. Since we are not historians, we could do much better if we just state what is insulting for our nation (as done in this thread, at a percentage of more than 90%), than try to rewrite history for all the others.

 

[Brighteye]

As I recall from studying ancient Greek the Ionian cities were Greek settlers and the Greeks were not fomenting rebellion in Persian lands; some of the civilians of the cities themselves were quite keen to be independent of Persian rule, as they had been originally. Of course Persian historians would say that they were Persian territory, and no doubt many other citizens also considered themselves Persian and wanted to be independent of the Greek city states. To state the facts in such a way as to imply that the Greeks were somehow the aggressors overlooks the fact that the cities were founded by the Greeks. In Civ you don't regard one of your cities as an AI city because he captured it for a few turns. You want it back!
When reading histories you need to consider who wrote it. I'm sure that the account written here doesn't intentionally contain historical inaccuracies, but it still has bias. A different historian might decide that after a few hundred years of being part of the Arab empire Iran cannot really be called the same Persia that had an empire millenia ago, even if it has many cultural customs that predate the Arab invasion.
A civilisation's existence isn't defined entirely by culture, but also perhaps by whether it continues as an independent entity. Rome fell and although the empire continued to exist in the east it isn't the Roman civilisation/empire that we all think of. Similarly Persia fell, and although it may have been resurrected this new Persia isn't the Persian empire that Firaxis is trying to portray.