Petition for the Better Reprentation of Non-European Cultures in Civillization

[Iovah]

Petition for the Better Reprentation of Non-European Cultures in Civillization 4

I wish to muster support to petition the creators of Civillization 4 for a better representation of non-European civillizations, and to show support for a game that does not take an entirely Euro-centric point of view. I hope to receive help from others in trying to formulate realistic and practical ideas to spread out the games design and concept to a more global appeal. My request are simple:

1 - Unit art that is flavored for different Civillization types. So that the Middle Eastern, Asian, and American Civillizations don't have Spearmen that look like Greeks, Pikemen that look like Medieval Pikemen, and Knights in regions that did not have European Knights.

2 - Spread the proportion of Civillizations away from Europe and to other, less represented regions of the planet.

3 - A Technology Tree that does not reflect European historical development, but instead, open to various modles. For example, Chivalry leading to the formation of a knighthood was almost entirely a European event.

These are very simple suggestions for change that I'm petitioning. Suggestion 3 may already have been implemented from the way it sounds, but I want to make sure. Suggestion 1 will probably be the most difficult, however, it's not too complicated. The base unit will be the same with the same characteristics. Simply the Art Work will be changed to reflect the civillization it originated from, so that they don't all look like they are of a European and American origin.

I ask for support from the Civillization community and any assistance in formulating and sending a petition to the creators of Civillization 4. I am open to suggestion, but we cannot risk making complicated suggestions; otherwise, we will end up being ignored by the creators as going too far from the original idea.

I beleive that this will be advantageous not only to the appearance of the game play and more internationally sensitive, but also, since the video game has greatly expanded into other countries, this will make it more appealing to non-Western markets as well as the West. After all, the fast expanding video game market currently is China. When I was in China 2 years ago learning Chinese and showed my Chinese friends Civillization 4 game, he exclaimed, "他们都是欧洲人" - "They're all Europeans!" even though I was playing as China. So it could broaden the appeal of the game in their advantage to make minor changes to make Civillization 4 better represent other cultures of the world.

 

[Poseidon_55]

good point
what do u need just people to send emails to civ 4 people or wut

 

[Meleager]

This is the continuation of the idea on the Civ4 pre-release information thread, is it not?

I will put my support behind it. You would have to be careful though, having the same unit with 5 different looks could be bad for gameplay if it is not done just right.

Just having this thread up might be enough, however I doubt they will implement the idea in time for November. They would have to do 5 times more unit art then they were expecting to do by then.

 

[SuperBeaverInc.]

1 - Unit art that is flavored for different Civillization types. So that the Middle Eastern, Asian, and American Civillizations don't have Spearmen that look like Greeks, Pikemen that look like Medieval Pikemen, and Knights in regions that did not have European Knights.

I agree with this idea. It does look a little weird to see white Chinese, Zulu, and Aztecs.

2 - Spread the proportion of Civillizations away from Europe and to other, less represented regions of the planet.

Sort of a yes and no on this one. A civ should be placed in the game based on their historical accomplishments, not their location on the map. However, there should be at least some representation for other regions. to Mali and Incans for this. Both great civs that not only deserve it, but represent a region. Killing two birds with one stone.

3 - A Technology Tree that does not reflect European historical development, but instead, open to various modles. For example, Chivalry leading to the formation of a knighthood was almost entirely a European event.

Wouldn't this sort of tie into Point 1? Flavoured tech trees for different culture groups?

 

[Avayaman]

the new idea re: tech tree is an excellent idea. i've never thought of that before. it would be hard to balance it for game play, but the extra effort shoud be worth it!

 

[Iovah]

I figured as a group we could determine the best way to get our message to the creators of Civ 4. Any ideas? Maybe we should make a contact list. I'm very pleased by the response. Hopefully, we can muster some more support to get more attention. I don't think Request 1 will be as difficult as it sounds. It merely requires the adding of art and a little bit of re-programing to allow 5 different flavors just as there are 5 flavors for the city types.

RE:SuperBeaverInc.

I'm not necissarily asking for flavored Tech Trees, but more so the freedom of developing in different ways, or using more generic Tech advances than very specific tech advances.

 

[Iovah]

RE: SuperBeaverInc.

Another point, how does one define the success of a civillization? What makes Europe so successful? Because they conquered? Because they had technology? Also, this game has many historical periods. Europe was only successful in the past 500 years. What about the other 3500 years of human history? I sometimes think it's only Europeans and Americans that think Europe was the most successful. In China, they sometimes define civillization by longevity. The most ancient are the best. In that case, Europe would barely be included as they have not stood the test of time.

 

[warpstorm]

While I support your motives, you are way too late. The art assets to make a new civ take so long to make that they have to be planned for many months in advance.

 

[rhialto]

Petition for the Better Reprentation of Non-European Cultures in Civillization 4

... When I was in China 2 years ago learning Chinese and showed my Chinese friends Civillization 4 game...

You had an advance copy?

 

[CoolioVonHoolio]

i like this idea, its like in the middle ages scienaro for C3C where each different culture has a different tech tree (i think they do ive only played it once...)

 

[mastertyguy]

I think that make that each culture group has it's own tech tree may be historically accurate, but makes absolutly no sense at all in the game. I think you can choose a path knowing what those who are near you on the game map. you could have the Aztecs going on the same path as the Spanish, beacause they are neighbours on the map, while Incans and Portugal follow the same path, being on the same continent.

 

[Carver]

I support you motives, but of course these thing have been decided already for vanilla Civ4. I like your ideas about unit art and the civs included. But, at this point, all we can really do is make it clear to Firaxis (and other game developers) that people are interested in Western as well as non-Western cultures.

Re: the tech tree - I think they've made an improvement in going with the non-linear (or less-linear) tech tree. I think it's good to allow as much creativity as possible in how you develop your civ.

 

[MeteorPunch]

I agree totally. Every decent mod includes units from different cultures. These units are made by a handful of talented people that love the game. It honestly shows a lack of effort on Firaxis' part to be outdone consistently by the mod community.

 

[warpstorm]

I agree totally. Every decent mod includes units from different cultures. These units are made by a handful of talented people that love the game. It honestly shows a lack of effort on Firaxis' part to be outdone consistently by the mod community.

There is a reason for this and it doesn't have to do with passion or skill. It has to do with time. The artists are given a fixed short amount of time to generate each art asset (and they have lots to make). They have to crank them out and then move on to the next. In most cases, they don't get a second chance to improve it.

 

[mastertyguy]

If I had the choice between giving artist more time and giving gameplay more time, well, my choice is made. And it is certainly not the artists!

 

[MeteorPunch]

There is a reason for this and it doesn't have to do with passion or skill. It has to do with time. The artists are given a fixed short amount of time to generate each art asset (and they have lots to make). They have to crank them out and then move on to the next. In most cases, they don't get a second chance to improve it.

Civ III was released 4 years ago, they've had plenty of time. The civ III modders have outdone Firaxis in quality and quantity of Civ III units during this span - and they aren't even getting paid. Civ 4 will have even less units than civ III, isn't that exciting! I'm thrilled!

I've never been happy with Civ's art direction, and this is just another example. Forget about making a product "to stand the test of time," just get it done in time to make $$$.

btw:There should be better representation of non-european cultures.

 

[Crazy Eskimo]

Re: Meteor's Punch - I think you might be being a little hard on the Civ programmers.

1) Modder's get to pick and choose what they want to mod. For Civ Programmer's, it would have to be part of an overall vision.

2) Modder's can get away with sub-par modding, if their skills aren't up to par. Civ programmers would have no such leeway.

3) Modder's do this for fun in their spare time. Civ Programmers are kinda working on Civ IV, which might take up a bit of time

4) For Civ Programmers to release this stuff outside an expansion would require them to do their job for free. Do you do YOUR job for free?

All this comes off a bit harsh. I don't totally disagree with you that some mods would be appreciated from the Firaxis crew. But at the same time, I don't expect them of Firaxis. Rather than dis Firaxis for being "outdone" by modders, why not admire Firaxis's foresight in recognizing the power of the modding community and enabling that community to take the ball and run with it as far as they want to? If Firaxis was the sole content provider for Civ games, we'd have a far less rich experience.

Couple questions of clarification:
1) How unique a look are you looking for for non-European units? Do you just want their skin color to be corrected (e.g. Zulu Pikemen would be black)? Or are you looking for full differentiation of armor style, stance, etc.?

2) Aside from Chivalry, what do you see as the Euro-centric advances?

 

[MeteorPunch]

All this comes off a bit harsh.

I was being harsh - they can do better.

Couple questions of clarification:
1) How unique a look are you looking for for non-European units? Do you just want their skin color to be corrected (e.g. Zulu Pikemen would be black)? Or are you looking for full differentiation of armor style, stance, etc.?

The very least they could do is make the skin tones correct. In civ 3, all settlers looked black, swordsmen were white, etc. I would go all out for diversity, making civs have different unit/building options etc. That is too radical for most "civvers" who think the game should be static and equal. There is no such thing as equality however - who prefers Rel to Agr trait? - for example, but there are ways to balance this which I will not go into as it is no use.

2) Aside from Chivalry, what do you see as the Euro-centric advances?

My point is the unit graphics, not the advances, which are a totally lost cause. I would like to see a different tech tree for each civ.

 

[warpstorm]

Civ III was released 4 years ago, they've had plenty of time. The civ III modders have outdone Firaxis in quality and quantity of Civ III units during this span - and they aren't even getting paid.

I can only speak for those of us at Breakaway, but to have done these after the contract was up, we would not have been paid either. It would have been on our own dime.

 

[Crazy Eskimo]

I was being harsh - they can do better.

Clarification: I meant that my rattling off of points was a bit harsh towards you.

The very least they could do is make the skin tones correct. In civ 3, all settlers looked black, swordsmen were white, etc. I would go all out for diversity, making civs have different unit/building options etc. That is too radical for most "civvers" who think the game should be static and equal. There is no such thing as equality however - who prefers Rel to Agr trait? - for example, but there are ways to balance this which I will not go into as it is no use.

I definitely agree that the skin tones should be tweaked. I'll save my thoughts on further unit differentiation until more people have posted their thoughts on the subject.

My point is the unit graphics, not the advances, which are a totally lost cause. I would like to see a different tech tree for each civ.

I like the idea of differentiation but my worries on the different tech trees is two fold. First, I worry about the complexity that differentiated tech trees would have on gameplay. How do you trade techs if everyone's got a different set? It's also a lot more information to balance in your head as you're figuring out strategy. At some point, too much information becomes as bad as no information. If you can't possibly keep up with balancing and reacting to it all, you end up ignoring it and just pushing ahead with what you can control. Second, I worry about the amount of creative generation that Firaxis would have to do. We got into this a bit when discussing the possibility of Unique Units for every civ for every age: How exactly do you make a modern unique unit for the Romans? Isn't this delving a bit into the realm of fantasy, that Civ has stayed away from? Likewise, how do we come up with a separate tech tree for modern techs for Native American Civs? Their tech trees essentially ended in the Ancient Age. Do we make up what their tech trees could have been or do we give them the same tech tree as everyone else?

I don't see these as fatal flaws to what you're proposing, more warnings about going too far with it. I like the idea of more differentiation of the different nations in Civ, but I don't want to go so far with it that the Eqyptians are the only Civ that can build the pyramids.