Petition

[Chalks]

Easy it has more historical value over a longer period of time than the USA.

No, it doesn't. The USA has had an absolutely massive impact on world history where as Spain was a mediocre colonial power (based on the future success of its colonies) before bankrupting itself

Also, you seem to have trouble counting to 3. In order to be in the top 8, you have to displace 3 of the top 10.

 

[nomooon]

Top 8? Hahaha.

Top 10 (no particular order): China, USA, England, France, Germany, Russia, Rome, Greece, Egypt, Japan

Which three of those civilizations is Spain more important than and why? Answers on a postcard.

i think u.s. civ is more like a combination of the european civs :/ (predominantly english)

 

[The Rusty Gamer]

The game will be modifable; you will be able to add whatever cvilizations you like, so what's the big deal.

Besides, they need something to add for the inevietable expansions, you know...after all, the civ fanchise is a cash cow.

 

[nomooon]

Seriously... Spain has had more historical value over a longer period of time than the USA?

The USA has ~100 good years of significant worldwide impact, and an additional 100 years of continentwide impact (albeit a backwater continent)... Spain really isn't much more than that.

They went from backwater roman empire to backwater (but culturally intellectually intersting) point of contact between europe and arabs, and then they became a world power for ~100 years, and then began their decline back to a backwater part of Europe.

So maybe 100 years of continent wide impact, and 100 years of world wide impact for both.

Spain has been around Longer than the USA but for most of that it time it doesn't warrant inclusion in civ.

now if it is not for spain then the entire central/southern americas wouldn't be talking in spanish ( except brazil )

 

[plasmacannon]

"Top 10 (no particular order): China, USA, England, France, Germany, Russia, Rome, Greece, Egypt, Japan"
Which three of those civilizations is Spain more important than and why?"
-All 10 of these are important, and so are a few others.

The problem is the Time periods.
They should split the game up into early middle and late game empires, and make their expansions that way.
Where are the Mongolians?
They had one of the largest Empires ever (for the ancient eras).
Spain would be like them in the Middle Eras.
US in the Late Eras.

If they are going to limit the empires back to so few, then do them right. By time periods. The US didn't have to fight the aztecs.
Some of the comparasions are just plain weird.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

If they are going to limit the empires back to so few, then do them right. By time periods. The US didn't have to fight the aztecs.
Some of the comparasions are just plain weird.

Those comparisons are what makes civ fun.

If you don't want that then play scenarios.

 

[Chalks]

i think u.s. civ is more like a combination of the european civs :/ (predominantly english)

You still don't understand what makes a civilization historically significant. It doesn't matter where they are from.

And you're still having trouble counting to 3.

Unconvincing, your argument is.

Moderator Action: Don't belittle other posters
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Chalks]

"Top 10 (no particular order): China, USA, England, France, Germany, Russia, Rome, Greece, Egypt, Japan"
Which three of those civilizations is Spain more important than and why?"
-All 10 of these are important, and so are a few others.

The problem is the Time periods.
They should split the game up into early middle and late game empires, and make their expansions that way.
Where are the Mongolians?
They had one of the largest Empires ever (for the ancient eras).
Spain would be like them in the Middle Eras.
US in the Late Eras.

If they are going to limit the empires back to so few, then do them right. By time periods. The US didn't have to fight the aztecs.
Some of the comparasions are just plain weird.

You're missing the point.

Spain is less significant than any of those civilizations. They are less significant than any civilization included from Europe - doesn't really matter whether or not you think my top 10 is entirely accurate, the more Civs you think should be ranked above the ones I listed the less significant Spain becomes.

They are a mediocre colonial power and that's pretty much it. Besides failing at utilising their colonial power base, they did little more than any other European civilization that is not included.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

They are a mediocre colonial power and that's pretty much it. Besides failing at utilising their colonial power base, they did little more than any other European civilization that is not included.

I'd disagree, they were a Major colonial power.. but unlike France or England, that was all they were.

 

[Ahriman]

I'd disagree, they were a Major colonial power.. but unlike France or England, that was all they were.

Quite. Its also interestig to note that though they gained their colonies earlier than others (except Portugal), they mostly lost them earlier too.

 

[khwamlap]

Quite. Its also interestig to note that though they gained their colonies earlier than others (except Portugal), they mostly lost them earlier too.

True. They also had a massive cultural affect and probably did more to spread Christianity than anyone (possibly save the late Romans) - though with the unknown quantity of how religion will be included in Civ5, what this means to the game is questionable.

It must be very difficult for the designers to choose viable empires from history. The point IMHO of the Civ series (with the possible exception of Alpha Centuri!) is to rewrite history. Many civilisations that could have been in history never made it for various reasons - and certainly many that did were from such dissimilar times that try t be objective is pointless - USA versus Babylon? How can they be realistically compared in a historical context with some two thousand years of thought, religion, scientific and political advance and so on.

Therefore, arguing as to which "empire" deserves to be in the list is of as much use as arguing which religion is right!

 

[Chalks]

I'd disagree, they were a Major colonial power.. but unlike France or England, that was all they were.

I would class them as mediocre simply because their colonies are some of the least successful in the longer term.

 

[Ahriman]

I would class them as mediocre simply because their colonies are some of the least successful in the longer term.

That's somewhat true with the benefit of hindsight, but definitely wasn't always true.

In the 1950s, Argentina had some of the highest per capita income in the world.

In 1700 I don't think anyone would have picked North America over South America in terms of future economic development (the Caribbean was where the wealth was at). Or in 1800 for that matter.

And Latin American colonies still did better than Africa and arguably south asia and most of south east asia.

The only ones they did obviously "worse" than are US/Canada/Australia/New Zealand.

 

[Chalks]

That's somewhat true with the benefit of hindsight, but definitely wasn't always true.

And when judging overall historical impact, hindsight is key.

The only ones they did obviously "worse" than are US/Canada/Australia/New Zealand.

As far as I am aware, this covers most of the other large colonial powers, putting Spain at the bottom of the long term colonial stability rankings.

They were one of the big colonial powers - but when the argument is "they should be included simply because they were such an outstanding colonial power" I think you really need to consider the fact that their colonies are now some of the weakest and whether you can call that being an "outstanding colonial power".

 

[GhostWriter16]

Well, Spain is nowhere near the level of the USA in importance, however, I did sign the petition and think they are pretty important. I think at least all the important civs need to be in, although I think we can live without Babylon.

I'll be honest, I thought this was going to be an anti 1UPT thread and decided I would not sign, but when I realized it was Spain, I thought, "Good idea," and signed. However, I'd be just as happy with the Vikes or Mongols.

When Rhye gets around to Rhye's and Fall of Civ 5, I know he's gonna have a lot of work to do modding civs in.

 

[Ahriman]

And when judging overall historical impact, hindsight is key.

What I mean is: Spanish colonies are not particularly rich now.

But they WERE successful for centuries. And even now aren't doing that badly.

As far as I am aware, this covers most of the other large colonial powers, putting Spain at the bottom of the long term colonial stability rankings.

You're kidding, right? This includes... Britain. [And sorta France for a brief period for Canada before ~1750 (but mostly Britain).]
No French, Dutch, Portugese, German (minimal), Italy (minimal)

Which did better; Chile, Argentina and Mexico or:
Senegal Laos and Cambodia?
Indonesia, Sri Lanka and Guinea?
Mozambique, Brazil and Angola?
Namibia and Samoa?
Libya, Tunisia and Ethiopia?

They did better than anyone except the British colonies.

 

[plasmacannon]

I guess I was too brief.
I agree with Ahriman, and guys there is no reason to reduce the contributions of many countries in the world that Spain controlled at one time.
I didn't disagree with chalks list of 10.
Only that why should it be simply 10?
Add Spain, Mongolia, and probably, one from a Gold and Diamond producing country of Africa.

 

[Chalks]

What I mean is: Spanish colonies are not particularly rich now.

But they WERE successful for centuries. And even now aren't doing that badly.

The argument I'm talking about is that Spain was such an incredible colonial power that they should be included just because of that.

I disagree with this. Out of the other colonial powers that are included in the game, Spain are not miles ahead. They're not first. I'd argue they're not even second.

 

[Chalks]

I guess I was too brief.
I agree with Ahriman, and guys there is no reason to reduce the contributions of many countries in the world that Spain controlled at one time.
I didn't disagree with chalks list of 10.
Only that why should it be simply 10?
Add Spain, Mongolia, and probably, one from a Gold and Diamond producing country of Africa.

I picked 10 because I was being lazy and I didn't want to get into a debate about whether or not Spain was more influential than any of the non-European civilizations that I don't actually know much about

 

[attackfighter]

Out of the other colonial powers that are included in the game, Spain are not miles ahead. They're not first. I'd argue they're not even second.

The New World was discovered by a Spaniard and it's inhabitants were brought to their knees by the conquistadors. For a long period of time they extracted the most wealth, controlled the most territory and converted the most heathens. Today Cortez is the icon for colonial imperialism. With the possible exception of Britain, I can't think of any other civ worthy of representing the European colonial powers.

They are less significant than any civilization included from Europe

And why is Spain arbitrarily compared only to European civs? They've played a bigger role in the world than Japan, Songhai, India, Egypt and the Aztecs, so it would be a mistake for Firaxis to ignore them.

Even in the realm of European civs, they've played a larger global role than the Vikings, Germans, Russians and French - the last 3 of whom were influential in regional affairs but less successful than Spain in their colonial ambitions. Look at how many people speak Spanish compared to German, Russian or even French

The USA has had an absolutely massive impact on world history where as Spain was a mediocre colonial power

The US joined both world wars late and became the first superpower because the previous great powers beat themselves into oblivion. Since then the US has left a large cultural footprint and has screwed around with what you'd deem as 'backwater' countries. The US has had a decent impact on the world, but I don't think it compares with eradicating and colonizing an entire continent's worth of civilizations...