PH17: pholkhero and the Holy Grail
- Thread starter pholkhero
- Start date
Whosit
Entropic Knight
OK, because I have too much time on my hands today (and I really like making these little things), here is a battle plan!
But first, something else I was thinking of (and, yes, I'm giving it way too much thought, but as I said, too much time).
Strategy--Why are we going to war? What is the goal of a war against the Inca? My impression is that this is a war for resources and breathing space. If the goal is something else, correct me because that may change the overall plan . . . . However, using this as a basis, we should probably not commit to wiping out the Inca in one go, but clear out our border and strike their core.
Also, if the scope of our war is limited, we may not even want to attack their distant cities, like Vilcabamba and Scithian, because they will still deter the other AI from settling in any vacancies we leave (and we can take them later).
Anyway, the battle map:
Lemme break it down.
Purple Group: 6 Horse Archers, 2 Archers, 1 Axeman. The Horse Archers will strike and take Tiwanaku on turn 1 (assuming there are no more than 3 defenders). We may want to have a couple of Flanking units here. The infantry will HOLD BACK until the city is taken, which should allow us the use of the nearby roads to get the Archers in town on Turn 1. Purple Group will then heal.
Green Group: 2-3 Mounted Units (Chariots/Horse Archers), 2 Archers, 2-3 Axemen/Swordsmen (but at least 1 Axeman). As indicated, they will take the Incan town on Turn 1. I would personally raze the city, unless the team thinks that there is some value in keeping it.
Black Group: Composition unknown. These are basically going to be the reinforcements that we assemble after hostilities are commenced.
Once Purple and Green Groups are healed, they will advance (save any defenders needed for captured cities) to the indicated location. If Black Group has been assembled, it will advance as well. Each team should have at least 1 Axeman to deal with Incan counter-attacks.
Blue Group: All groups merge for the siege of Cuzco. As of now, the defense of the Incan capital is unknown, but we should plan for at least 6 defenders with some promotions. Even with 50% losses from Purple and Green Groups, we should be able to put together at least 8 units, maybe more if we can crank them out.
Yellow Group: This group will probably not exist. I would like to know what tile is east of the Blue Dot. It looks like water, but in the event that there is a land route to Yellow Dot, we should put at least and Archer and an Axeman there to prevent Cuzco from being reinforced along that land bridge. Unfortunately, it looks pretty clear that we can not reach that tile, so this part of the plan will probably be scrapped.
Other Note: We will need roads leading to Green, Purple, and Black Groups' starting locations so that the attack can commence smoothly and so that reinforcements can quickly be brought up to the front lines.
A small garrison should remain in St. Petersburg to deter any Incan counter-attacks from the north.
I do not know if the situation has changed, but the Incans do not appear to have access to Horses. Therefore, we should not need to build Spearmen for this attack.
After these three cities are taken, we should take peace and do our best to use our new acquisitions to enhance our economy. Once our financial situation is better grounded, we can continue our aggression against the Incas or whoever else poses a threat.
But first, something else I was thinking of (and, yes, I'm giving it way too much thought, but as I said, too much time).
Strategy--Why are we going to war? What is the goal of a war against the Inca? My impression is that this is a war for resources and breathing space. If the goal is something else, correct me because that may change the overall plan . . . . However, using this as a basis, we should probably not commit to wiping out the Inca in one go, but clear out our border and strike their core.
Also, if the scope of our war is limited, we may not even want to attack their distant cities, like Vilcabamba and Scithian, because they will still deter the other AI from settling in any vacancies we leave (and we can take them later).
Anyway, the battle map:
Lemme break it down.
Purple Group: 6 Horse Archers, 2 Archers, 1 Axeman. The Horse Archers will strike and take Tiwanaku on turn 1 (assuming there are no more than 3 defenders). We may want to have a couple of Flanking units here. The infantry will HOLD BACK until the city is taken, which should allow us the use of the nearby roads to get the Archers in town on Turn 1. Purple Group will then heal.
Green Group: 2-3 Mounted Units (Chariots/Horse Archers), 2 Archers, 2-3 Axemen/Swordsmen (but at least 1 Axeman). As indicated, they will take the Incan town on Turn 1. I would personally raze the city, unless the team thinks that there is some value in keeping it.
Black Group: Composition unknown. These are basically going to be the reinforcements that we assemble after hostilities are commenced.
Once Purple and Green Groups are healed, they will advance (save any defenders needed for captured cities) to the indicated location. If Black Group has been assembled, it will advance as well. Each team should have at least 1 Axeman to deal with Incan counter-attacks.
Blue Group: All groups merge for the siege of Cuzco. As of now, the defense of the Incan capital is unknown, but we should plan for at least 6 defenders with some promotions. Even with 50% losses from Purple and Green Groups, we should be able to put together at least 8 units, maybe more if we can crank them out.
Yellow Group: This group will probably not exist. I would like to know what tile is east of the Blue Dot. It looks like water, but in the event that there is a land route to Yellow Dot, we should put at least and Archer and an Axeman there to prevent Cuzco from being reinforced along that land bridge. Unfortunately, it looks pretty clear that we can not reach that tile, so this part of the plan will probably be scrapped.
Other Note: We will need roads leading to Green, Purple, and Black Groups' starting locations so that the attack can commence smoothly and so that reinforcements can quickly be brought up to the front lines.
A small garrison should remain in St. Petersburg to deter any Incan counter-attacks from the north.
I do not know if the situation has changed, but the Incans do not appear to have access to Horses. Therefore, we should not need to build Spearmen for this attack.
After these three cities are taken, we should take peace and do our best to use our new acquisitions to enhance our economy. Once our financial situation is better grounded, we can continue our aggression against the Incas or whoever else poses a threat.
Just some random rambling:
We could gain promos for some of our units taking the barb city, or just plan straightaway for HC. The units would have to heal and there is the worry of a backstab by KK. If that city has two deer tiles, it would not be bad at all. It should not cost much due to its proximity to Moscow.
Definitely war elephants for this venture, if at all possible. They are slow but tough--our first GG should be attached to one. Of course, axes are needed to cover them if HC has built spears, and he probably has. These units should probably be force black.
Cuzco has a lot of culture, is a size 10 on the screen shot i see, so cats are needed. Again, force black.
Edit: SoZ won't help us with the HC war, since we plan on it being short, but may deter the AI's from back-stabbing.
From the time we leave our borders until we take a city, our finances are going to be bad, so look out for that.
We could gain promos for some of our units taking the barb city, or just plan straightaway for HC. The units would have to heal and there is the worry of a backstab by KK. If that city has two deer tiles, it would not be bad at all. It should not cost much due to its proximity to Moscow.
Definitely war elephants for this venture, if at all possible. They are slow but tough--our first GG should be attached to one. Of course, axes are needed to cover them if HC has built spears, and he probably has. These units should probably be force black.
Cuzco has a lot of culture, is a size 10 on the screen shot i see, so cats are needed. Again, force black.
Edit: SoZ won't help us with the HC war, since we plan on it being short, but may deter the AI's from back-stabbing.
From the time we leave our borders until we take a city, our finances are going to be bad, so look out for that.
Yeah do the trade for construction.
The battle plan seems ambitious... But we'll have to go for it sooner or later. With construction we should mix in siege and jumbos, don't think on immortal only HAs and axes will cut it in the ADs.
AFAIK the SoZ only applies to the human when in posession of the AI and not vice versa. So it serves denial purposes only.
The battle plan seems ambitious... But we'll have to go for it sooner or later. With construction we should mix in siege and jumbos, don't think on immortal only HAs and axes will cut it in the ADs.
AFAIK the SoZ only applies to the human when in posession of the AI and not vice versa. So it serves denial purposes only.
Well, that sucks. I thought the benefits derived from all wonders were a level playing field.
Lurker Comment:
The SoZ does in fact increase war weariness against the AI. However not only does the AI get a substantial reduction in WW at higher levels, but there is reduced WW in domestic territory to begin with. Combine the fact most AI battles when dealing with a human comes in their own territory with the overall handicap reduction the SoZ normally has a vastly reduced effect on the AI. Its nice for fail cash and culture battles though!
The SoZ does in fact increase war weariness against the AI. However not only does the AI get a substantial reduction in WW at higher levels, but there is reduced WW in domestic territory to begin with. Combine the fact most AI battles when dealing with a human comes in their own territory with the overall handicap reduction the SoZ normally has a vastly reduced effect on the AI. Its nice for fail cash and culture battles though!
pholkhero
Deviant Mind
welcome aboard whosit ~ i like the battle plan. ambitious is best, imo, when making battle plans.
i think i like going straight for HC. I just don't think adding the barb city right now would be worth the added cost in maintenance; lets just head straight for HC. we will have to be very careful that we can afford the large armies whosit's plan calls for though.
i think we raze huma, though, too.
also, re the science slider. we should be using binary research, so the 10% from the monastery WOULD help. however, i still agree on NOT building it right now.
and thanks for the well-wishes ~ i'm doing fine!
i think i like going straight for HC. I just don't think adding the barb city right now would be worth the added cost in maintenance; lets just head straight for HC. we will have to be very careful that we can afford the large armies whosit's plan calls for though.
i think we raze huma, though, too.
also, re the science slider. we should be using binary research, so the 10% from the monastery WOULD help. however, i still agree on NOT building it right now.
and thanks for the well-wishes ~ i'm doing fine!
Whosit
Entropic Knight
Good to hear from you! Glad you're well. Glad you like the plan.
I, too, like ambitious plans, but in the end, a general must go to war with the army that he has.
Though, that reminds me, that I forgot to include the "post-operation" part of the plan, a part perhaps even more critical than the war plan: What are we going to do with the towns when we take them?
I think that it's fairly straightforward.
Tiwanaku: Most of the development has been done already, but I'd make it a pure commercial town. Cottages, cottages everywhere. If we emphasize growth, maybe with the rice, and work the plantations and prime cottage spots, it should easily help fund our expansions in the future.
Cuzco: I'm tempted to turn this into a commerce house, too, but it might be more valuable as a production site in the long-run. If we go to war with Mongolia, we might be able to strike from two fronts, considering how the world wraps around like this. It would be nice to have a production center near each front to provide the reinforcements that will be necessary, for defense or offense.
Huamanga: I agree it should be razed. Though, perhaps we can have a Settler on standby. If we settle it 1S or 1SE, perhaps it could make some money fishing and working whatever grassland cottages would be in range. I think we'll want to devote several cities to money-making business.
I'm not the best at planning development, but I suppose my vision of the empire is one of a few high-hammer cities supported by many commercial ventures. But, better ideas are welcome.
Oh, and where do I fit into the Roster?
pholkhero
Deviant Mind
sounds good to me, tally ~
you're Up Now if you can play Whosit
you're Up Now if you can play Whosit
Whosit
Entropic Knight
Not quite, I think. Mc-red hasn't posted the latest save yet. I think that he's still playing?
mc-red
King
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2007
- Messages
- 967
Thanks for the feedback before turnset guys 
I took it to turn 180
I looked at the culture situation on our minor target and it was clear we would lose the ability to attack in one turn with 1 turn units. This was confirmed as in just one turn it went from 56% russian to 51% russian.
I was mistaken about KK wanting to take the drama trade but I switched from currency and next turn he was willing. I noticed that qin (edit) was also willing to trade monarchy. Though I suspected he would not do so if drama was not a monopoly. I delayed the KK trade for construction and switched to monarchy.
Next turn we got:
construction for drama from KK
Monarchy for drama from Qin.
I then went back to Currency. Most turns I ran scientists in Moscow although I also worked cottages for growth as well.
The idea was not to switch to HR till moscow goes unhappy. I knew that I would get one more happy from Wines.
Unfortunately we will get furs pillaged next turn by a barb spear so will probably have to revolt a little earlier than I hoped
incurring anarchy a little earlier than needed.
Qin was hungry and built chicken pizza.
HC has a prophet heading somewhere north of st Pete's.
HC is crowding us and building cats now.
Do we need to settle a junk 6th city in the furs/tundra?
KK back at war with Izzy.
I think we need to revisit battle plan:
at beginning of my turnset the orginal battle plan needs were as follows:
HA -> 2 need 6-7 more
Cha -> 3 no more needed
Archers->8 need 3-4 more
Axe -> 1 need 3 more
workers -> 6
Warrior -> 1
I moved the guerilla archer into moscow, the CG archer in moscow into the filler city and the guerilla archer in filler city to st Pete's.
I took it to turn 180I looked at the culture situation on our minor target and it was clear we would lose the ability to attack in one turn with 1 turn units. This was confirmed as in just one turn it went from 56% russian to 51% russian.
I was mistaken about KK wanting to take the drama trade but I switched from currency and next turn he was willing. I noticed that qin (edit) was also willing to trade monarchy. Though I suspected he would not do so if drama was not a monopoly. I delayed the KK trade for construction and switched to monarchy.
Next turn we got:
construction for drama from KK
Monarchy for drama from Qin.
I then went back to Currency. Most turns I ran scientists in Moscow although I also worked cottages for growth as well.
The idea was not to switch to HR till moscow goes unhappy. I knew that I would get one more happy from Wines.
Unfortunately we will get furs pillaged next turn by a barb spear so will probably have to revolt a little earlier than I hoped
incurring anarchy a little earlier than needed.Qin was hungry and built chicken pizza.
HC has a prophet heading somewhere north of st Pete's.
HC is crowding us and building cats now.
Do we need to settle a junk 6th city in the furs/tundra?
KK back at war with Izzy.
I think we need to revisit battle plan:
at beginning of my turnset the orginal battle plan needs were as follows:
HA -> 2 need 6-7 more
Cha -> 3 no more needed
Archers->8 need 3-4 more
Axe -> 1 need 3 more
workers -> 6
Warrior -> 1
I moved the guerilla archer into moscow, the CG archer in moscow into the filler city and the guerilla archer in filler city to st Pete's.
Attachments
Whosit
Entropic Knight
Sounds like good trades, mc-red. Also, EXTREMELY good news that Khan is back at war with Isabella. Hopefully that'll last awhile. If Khan asks us to declare on Izzy, even if we're going to war with Capac, should we do so for the diplomatic benefits?
I'm not sure about settling another city, but if I did, I'd settle it 1S of the lake. It would get all 3 furs, maybe be able to steal the dear from the former Barbarian city, and it would have two grasslands that could be farmed, helping feed other tiles. It's not a terribly strong city, but it would ensure that we retain control of the furs. Might be worth it, might pay for itself eventually, especially if it snatches the deer. I'd settle it, chop out a Monument, maybe Library, too (have to chop the grasslands for the farms, anyway), make camps wherever.
I'll take a look at the save to see the state of the military. You said how many troops were available at the start of your set, I just want to see what we have now.
Unfortunate that Hama's borders popped, but I can modify the plan. We move our troops onto the forested hill south of the city and attack the next turn. If we're lucky, Capac won't get reinforcements there in time. Even if he does, it will probably come at the cost of defense in his capital, so worst-case, the attack on Hama could prove a diversion as Purple and Black groups advance on Cuzco. Otherwise, we raze the city on turn 2 while Purple group is healing.
I'll have the most time for the set today, or tomorrow morning. How much do we need to decide? Other than the question of settling near the furs, and how soon to revolt to Monarchy (I'm not sure it really matters when we take the turn of anarchy, we'll be revolting eventually), I think I'll just be building up the army, hopefully starting a war.
Update:
Took a fairly close look at the save, some comments, some plans.
Accounting for what I expect to be minimum defenses in our cities (including the potential furs site), I'll plan to build:
Archer: 1-2
Axeman: 1-2
Horse Archer: 2-3
War Elephant: 2-3
Catapult: 4-5
So 10-15 more units. Quite a bit.
I've already made some tile swaps. Switched Novgorod from a grassland hill to the plains wine that just finished. Added some gold to our income. In Moscow, I fired both scientists to work hammer tiles, cutting the catapult from 8 to 4 turns. Currency is now in 10, rather than 8. I can change it back, but I think we need the hammers now. I don't expect to build the Markets immediately, but the extra trade routes will help when it finishes. What comes after Currency?
I plan to grow most of our other cities into hammer tiles, and I want to cut St. Pete's grassland ivory camp out of the jungle so that it will be food neutral. Yaroslavl' will grow into cottages, though.
One more note in favor of the furs site: Khan will trade us sugar. With an extra fur, we can make a trade, getting more happiness, and maybe diplomatic bonuses.
Overall build plan: Switch St. Pete to an Archer, rather than Catapult. Let Moscow and Novgorod finish current builds, but since they have stables, they will do the Horse Archers and War Elephants.
It's looking like I can get our army set up in my set, but may not have the chance to declare war. Is there a rough limit on the length of my set? I seem to recall reading something like "sets go until a good stopping point," though within reason of course.
My plan off attack may need revision, though, since Capac's forces have grown stronger. Perhaps instead of heading directly to Tiwanaku, we could make a diversionary attack to that small city to the north and raze it for some cash. Maybe then let Capac go on the offensive, use our stacks/catapults to knock out his force, then go on the offensive ourselves. Our Horse Archers should protect us well against his catapults. Axemen vs. his infantry.
I'm not sure about settling another city, but if I did, I'd settle it 1S of the lake. It would get all 3 furs, maybe be able to steal the dear from the former Barbarian city, and it would have two grasslands that could be farmed, helping feed other tiles. It's not a terribly strong city, but it would ensure that we retain control of the furs. Might be worth it, might pay for itself eventually, especially if it snatches the deer. I'd settle it, chop out a Monument, maybe Library, too (have to chop the grasslands for the farms, anyway), make camps wherever.
I'll take a look at the save to see the state of the military. You said how many troops were available at the start of your set, I just want to see what we have now.
Unfortunate that Hama's borders popped, but I can modify the plan. We move our troops onto the forested hill south of the city and attack the next turn. If we're lucky, Capac won't get reinforcements there in time. Even if he does, it will probably come at the cost of defense in his capital, so worst-case, the attack on Hama could prove a diversion as Purple and Black groups advance on Cuzco. Otherwise, we raze the city on turn 2 while Purple group is healing.
I'll have the most time for the set today, or tomorrow morning. How much do we need to decide? Other than the question of settling near the furs, and how soon to revolt to Monarchy (I'm not sure it really matters when we take the turn of anarchy, we'll be revolting eventually), I think I'll just be building up the army, hopefully starting a war.
Update:
Took a fairly close look at the save, some comments, some plans.
Accounting for what I expect to be minimum defenses in our cities (including the potential furs site), I'll plan to build:
Archer: 1-2
Axeman: 1-2
Horse Archer: 2-3
War Elephant: 2-3
Catapult: 4-5
So 10-15 more units. Quite a bit.
I've already made some tile swaps. Switched Novgorod from a grassland hill to the plains wine that just finished. Added some gold to our income. In Moscow, I fired both scientists to work hammer tiles, cutting the catapult from 8 to 4 turns. Currency is now in 10, rather than 8. I can change it back, but I think we need the hammers now. I don't expect to build the Markets immediately, but the extra trade routes will help when it finishes. What comes after Currency?
I plan to grow most of our other cities into hammer tiles, and I want to cut St. Pete's grassland ivory camp out of the jungle so that it will be food neutral. Yaroslavl' will grow into cottages, though.
One more note in favor of the furs site: Khan will trade us sugar. With an extra fur, we can make a trade, getting more happiness, and maybe diplomatic bonuses.
Overall build plan: Switch St. Pete to an Archer, rather than Catapult. Let Moscow and Novgorod finish current builds, but since they have stables, they will do the Horse Archers and War Elephants.
It's looking like I can get our army set up in my set, but may not have the chance to declare war. Is there a rough limit on the length of my set? I seem to recall reading something like "sets go until a good stopping point," though within reason of course.
My plan off attack may need revision, though, since Capac's forces have grown stronger. Perhaps instead of heading directly to Tiwanaku, we could make a diversionary attack to that small city to the north and raze it for some cash. Maybe then let Capac go on the offensive, use our stacks/catapults to knock out his force, then go on the offensive ourselves. Our Horse Archers should protect us well against his catapults. Axemen vs. his infantry.
mc-red
King
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2007
- Messages
- 967
Whosit:
I don't mind the switching back to hammer focus. I spent a few turns of my set just boosting empire size and putting turns into cottages/specialists when the maintenance of the army was getting a little problematic.
I think if you don't get too many comments go ahead and play anyway the extra city is not that big an issue if we can get success on the HC front.
Diplo with KK is where comments are most likely to be helpful as I am learning this aspect.
Seems like sharing the war will be the smart thing to do but :shrug:
edit:
We should have quite a few new units I didn't count them.
Don't forget the barb spear will pillage our fur on your first IBT
I don't mind the switching back to hammer focus. I spent a few turns of my set just boosting empire size and putting turns into cottages/specialists when the maintenance of the army was getting a little problematic.
I think if you don't get too many comments go ahead and play anyway the extra city is not that big an issue if we can get success on the HC front.
Diplo with KK is where comments are most likely to be helpful as I am learning this aspect.
Seems like sharing the war will be the smart thing to do but :shrug:
edit:
We should have quite a few new units I didn't count them.
Don't forget the barb spear will pillage our fur on your first IBT
Whosit
Entropic Knight
Organized Religion probably isn't a big deal right now since we'll be building a lot of units for the foreseeable future, both prepping for war and during it, although a few Markets will no doubt be necessary to sustain the economy.
Regarding the Barbarian Spearman, I'll try to kill him off next turn with the Axeman, though the forest tile essentially negates the Axe's +50% vs. Melee. It'll be dicey. I'll send the two Workers from the Wine to reconnect the furs.
That reminds me of something else. When I get the furs back, I was thinking of making a straight trade with Khan for his sugars. If we found another city, we can connect another fur or two, but the real benefit is this: We maintain our current level of happiness, but start to develop the "trading resources" diplomatic bonus with Khan. A win for us.
Regarding the Barbarian Spearman, I'll try to kill him off next turn with the Axeman, though the forest tile essentially negates the Axe's +50% vs. Melee. It'll be dicey. I'll send the two Workers from the Wine to reconnect the furs.
That reminds me of something else. When I get the furs back, I was thinking of making a straight trade with Khan for his sugars. If we found another city, we can connect another fur or two, but the real benefit is this: We maintain our current level of happiness, but start to develop the "trading resources" diplomatic bonus with Khan. A win for us.
Looks okay, but we'll definitely need to crank out more units for a serious assault on HC. 
I agree that the focus now should be on hammers, so fire the scientists. Also, I think we'll need to cut a couple of forests around St Pete and Novgorod to speed up unit production. Those workers mining the jungle hill for instance could better be sent chopping IMO, the hill won't be worked anyway in the short run. Also, don't forget the whip! Just before the assault I won't mind whipping out more units. I mean, on immortal I figure the AI will replenish its army very quickly, so the more units we can bring on our rampage, the better. I wouldn't worry too much about our finances, the money from capturing cities should help out. And somehow we'll creep to currency soonish...
I agree that the focus now should be on hammers, so fire the scientists. Also, I think we'll need to cut a couple of forests around St Pete and Novgorod to speed up unit production. Those workers mining the jungle hill for instance could better be sent chopping IMO, the hill won't be worked anyway in the short run. Also, don't forget the whip! Just before the assault I won't mind whipping out more units. I mean, on immortal I figure the AI will replenish its army very quickly, so the more units we can bring on our rampage, the better. I wouldn't worry too much about our finances, the money from capturing cities should help out. And somehow we'll creep to currency soonish...
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