The_Quasar
King
- Joined
- Oct 1, 2010
- Messages
- 862
Above King there is only one sensible choice, Rationalism.
My problem with splitting the piety tree into culture and religious trees is that the nature of religion in the game makes it difficult to imagine a religious SP tree that would be beneficial to use in the long run. There is no religious victory condition, rather it's used to facilitate other victory conditions. I guess the same could be said about gold, and the economics tree certainly holds its weight, but excess gold can be leveraged very diversely and effectively throughout all eras, whereas faith's main purpose late game is almost exclusively faith-buying great people, but you would need to use other SP trees to unlock the great people that the extra faith could buy... Not sure how well I explained that - basically
1.) you would need to generate a lot of culture, which the religious tree is not focused on, to complete it but then
2.) you would need to go through, say, the Freedom and Rationalism trees so you could spend the extra faith on GAs and GSs.
3.)Man, you would need a lot of culture to utilize all these policies, so you'd probably need to go through the Culture policy tree just to get all the SPs you would need to use it!
Unless the finisher for the Religious tree enabled faith-buying all variety of great people, but that might be overpowered, and even if not, I much prefer the flavor of unlocking GSs with a science SP tree, GMs with an economics based tree, and so on.
Where did you find that?
How can it be better? Best times are with Piety. With SOH or not.
First off all, to address your point #2, you don't need to go through a tree to get the ability to buy the GP, you just need to open the tree. Huge difference. That being said, with Order, Autocracy and Freedom currently being mutually exclusive, and with Rationalism exclusive with Piety, that does limit your options.My problem with splitting the piety tree into culture and religious trees is that the nature of religion in the game makes it difficult to imagine a religious SP tree that would be beneficial to use in the long run. There is no religious victory condition, rather it's used to facilitate other victory conditions. I guess the same could be said about gold, and the economics tree certainly holds its weight, but excess gold can be leveraged very diversely and effectively throughout all eras, whereas faith's main purpose late game is almost exclusively faith-buying great people, but you would need to use other SP trees to unlock the great people that the extra faith could buy... Not sure how well I explained that - basically
1.) you would need to generate a lot of culture, which the religious tree is not focused on, to complete it but then
2.) you would need to go through, say, the Freedom and Rationalism trees so you could spend the extra faith on GAs and GSs.
3.)Man, you would need a lot of culture to utilize all these policies, so you'd probably need to go through the Culture policy tree just to get all the SPs you would need to use it!
Unless the finisher for the Religious tree enabled faith-buying all variety of great people, but that might be overpowered, and even if not, I much prefer the flavor of unlocking GSs with a science SP tree, GMs with an economics based tree, and so on.
Well I disagree. Piety currently is the "cultural victory" tree, and that is an extremely poor construction because Piety cuts you off from Rationalism and ironically, people going for CV needs Rationalism more than anybody else because they will by default be narrow which hits you quite hard on science compared to someone going wide.However, I don't think that there needs some kind of culture specific tree. A game is suppoused to be about making interesting decisions, not obvious ones. It is bad already that there are a "science victory tree" and a "diplomatic victory tree" to add yet another obnoxorious "cultural victory" one.
If you have a Civ that's very dependant on religion (like Byzanthine), or if that's the way you wanna go, that will be a viable option. In fact, that was why I some while ago suggested that the Byzanthine start with Piety opener on top of their current UA.
Furthermore, having Piety (pure religion) open from ancient era will also mean that you can finish this tree fairly early game - in fact, from my experience I can do a coupled Tradition + Piety run from ancient and have both trees finished around Renasissance. This then allows me to either take some policies from Commerce/Patronage/Honor until the industrial trees open (depending on my game flavor) or one can even go directly into Rationalism at this point, which is not so bad an option as it may sound since religion has played its larger point at this part of game.
Since a lot of people tend to say the Tradition is the best opener, and Piety is often sighted as being underwhelming and not producing enough, here's an idea to fix both:
Move Legalism (maybe with a new name) to Piety. Tradition gets +3in the opener, Liberty gets +1
per city, why not move the four free culture buildings to Piety. This would improve the Piety tree, nerf the tradition tree (although a new policy would replace it), and make the timing of Legalism more of a choice rather than delaying tradition to abuse the bonus buildings.
The problem with Piety, as has been stated, is that it is both faith and culture, while Rationalism is very science focused.
Piety needs to be split badly.
Your logic makes sense, but I think that moving Aristocracy (bonus building wonders and +1 happiness/10 citizens in all cities) from Tradition to piety is a much more logical move for several reasons:Since a lot of people tend to say the Tradition is the best opener, and Piety is often sighted as being underwhelming and not producing enough, here's an idea to fix both:
Move Legalism (maybe with a new name) to Piety. Tradition gets +3in the opener, Liberty gets +1
per city, why not move the four free culture buildings to Piety. This would improve the Piety tree, nerf the tradition tree (although a new policy would replace it), and make the timing of Legalism more of a choice rather than delaying tradition to abuse the bonus buildings.
Even if Piety became wholly Religion-focused, who would take it over Rationalism? Religion doesn't win you a game. It isn't a means to victory, it's a means to a means. Science, OTOH, is a direct means to victory.
I like that Piety gives you direct bonuses toward a victory condition. But it certainly could use a buff, particularly the opening.
I'm not sure I think things are *quite* that clear-cut. I (only) play on Emperor difficulty, but up to this level I can easily win against AI without taking Rationalism. If that is not possible on higher levels and/or in multiplayer, perhaps one needs to give Rationalism yet another balance check at the same time?Even if Piety became wholly Religion-focused, who would take it over Rationalism? Religion doesn't win you a game. It isn't a means to victory, it's a means to a means. Science, OTOH, is a direct means to victory.
I like that Piety gives you direct bonuses toward a victory condition. But it certainly could use a buff, particularly the opening.
A tree for Espionage is interesting, Espionage deffinitely needs a complete overwork. I myself would suggest the 12th tree being for Coorporations, but I guess that could go into Commerce also, although Commerce does open a bit early for that.They should split Piety into two trees as said, and have the new one focus on culture and Piety really boost faith and faith-related items. Then add a new tree called Intrigue in the Renaissance that conflicts with Honor and really improves espionage (which needs to be fleshed out more).
I'm not sure I think things are *quite* that clear-cut. I (only) play on Emperor difficulty, but up to this level I can easily win against AI without taking Rationalism.
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Don't forget that religion comes into play very early in game, Rationalism only comes into play from Renaissance and onwards. If you do get a good religion going, that's quite a long time where those bonuses can accumulate before Rationalism comes into play, don't underestimate the impact of that...
Except that Rationalism isn't exclusive of Order, you can stack Ratty and Order, something I commonly practice with wider space victories, as well as domination victories - technological edge gives advanced units, production bonuses and gold bonuses means making lots of 'em, faith buying GE's when a cool wonder comes along doesn't tie up your soldier assembly line.while the ability to buy Great Scientists with Rationalism is certainly great and convenient, so is the ability to buy Great Engineers with Order, and the +25 % science bonus from factories that you get in the Order line goes a long way to make up for what you don't get with Rationalism.
I like where you're going, but this would be too easy to circumvent. If choosing Rationalism prevented further progress with Piety, everyone would get the 10% SP reduction cost and reduce the cost of Ratty SPs.it would be interesting if one could make it so that they are not completely incompatible, but simply so that adopting Rationalism will block you from ever proceeding with new Piety policies (and conversely in the odd case that you should open Rationalism before Piety), but then would could perhaps just as well remove the conflict completely.
Agree that espionage needs an overhaul. Also important because some view the 10 current SP trees as 5 pairs of opposing trees(vertically), which I disagree strategically but may be relevant for role-playing purposes, so splitting the piety tree might then necessitate having a 12th tree to round out the SP overview. The question/problem then becomes cultural victories currently require filling 1/2 the total SP trees available, and is considered one of the more difficult victory conditions to meet. Would adding a religious and espionage tree then require completing 6 trees?A tree for Espionage is interesting, Espionage deffinitely needs a complete overwork. I myself would suggest the 12th tree being for Coorporations, but I guess that could go into Commerce also, although Commerce does open a bit early for that.
Yes, without a doubt Piety (religion) needs to open right from Ancient era. Like I mentioned before, I've changed my own game files to have this happen, and from my last couple of games I find that going Tradition (opener) -> Piety (opener) -> Organized Religion (for extra faith) and then back to Tradition is not a bad opening path on the level I play (those who play Diety might disagree with that). If Piety first opens in Classic, opener is not going to do you a lot of good on the short term and Organized Religion will probably come too late to secure you a religion, at least as one of the first founders.Even if you do want an early Religion - which can be a good tactic, no doubt - Piety doesn't come fast enough to help you. Its opener is, well, lame. Especially if you're going tall, you'll have all your shrines and temples built well before you go the Piety route. To be competative, the Piety opener needs to do something valueable, like outright increase the amount of faith you produce.
Good point.Except that Rationalism isn't exclusive of Order, you can stack Ratty and Order ...
Agreed. Then one could as well just remove the restriction all-together. However, do notice that using 3 Social Policies just to get a discount on future Social Policies will be money poorly spent, it will be a long while before the culture you spent on those three policies have earned itself back, and in the meantime you would have delayed this progress. Also notice that if one actually *did* split the trees, the SP discount should move to the Culture tree (which would have no conflict with Rationalism), albeit my suggestion would then be to have the discount part of the closer for that tree, which would sort of prevent abuse.I like where you're going, but this would be too easy to circumvent. If choosing Rationalism prevented further progress with Piety, everyone would get the 10% SP reduction cost and reduce the cost of Ratty SPs.
Yes, however a key point in increasing the SP tree number should be to decrease the policy required for each social policy. Interestingly, the Communitas Expansion Pack has reach sort of the same idea through different paths - to reduce the cost for SP's but increase CV requirements to 6 trees. My motivation is primarily that I think SP's come too slowly and that you don't get enough of them in normal games, which was something I thought of independantly of the Piety tree splitting, but it does work well with this idea also.Agree that espionage needs an overhaul. Also important because some view the 10 current SP trees as 5 pairs of opposing trees(vertically), which I disagree strategically but may be relevant for role-playing purposes, so splitting the piety tree might then necessitate having a 12th tree to round out the SP overview. The question/problem then becomes cultural victories currently require filling 1/2 the total SP trees available, and is considered one of the more difficult victory conditions to meet. Would adding a religious and espionage tree then require completing 6 trees?