Play by play: A go at Monarch

Raliuven · Feb 1, 2012

Another thing to try to avoid is moving your worker back and forth across a river unless their ending place after crossing the river has 1) use all of their movement anyway or 2)is on the unimproved tile you are going to be working.

Of course you can't always help crossing a river to do improvements, but planning your moves so you don't lose turns by crossing is helpful.

This of course applies to the early game before engineering is researched.

ionize · Feb 1, 2012

Here is my latest update. I'm close to the shift from BC to AD.

Turn-log inside: (warning 40 turns inside! :lol:

)

Spoiler :

Finally I found every other rival. They are the Americans, the Dutch, the Hittite and the Persian (as well as good old Brennus of the Celts).

The tech-pace is crawling. I'm in a slight lead before the Celts and Persian and we outpace the other three by far. The Great Library will not have any effect, unless Brennus and Xerxes take the lower branch, while I go for Democracy.

I still have my SGL and I'm not sure for what to use him:
a) Sistine's? Well I will have three cathedrals at max by then.
b) Sun Tzu's? Well I wanted to go conquest, but at the moment it will not have that big an effect.
c) The Hanging Gardens? Would be nice, I could release Entertainment costs. But I could also hook up the wines (soon...) and get the ivory due North near Celtic land.
d) Templars? Would be nice to wage war with Brennus. I got 3-4 barracks now pumping (slow) veteran units.
e) The FP? Would like to have it in the East/NE territory to boost productivity.

Your input would be much appreciated.

Spoonwood · Feb 1, 2012

I'd recommend

f) The Pyramids in Zabalam, and sell all your granaries.

You could also go:

g) The Great Lighthouse so you might trade earlier with your wines city and the other continent.

If you can pull off the Republic slingshot, don't build the Great Library. I don't know why you had stopped settler and worker production from cities where you built granaries. Generally speaking it works out well to put out settlers and workers from cities with granaries. I would settle on that hill nearest the coast up north of Ur, as well as clearing marsh squares so that you can found cities up there. In other spots you have tiles within your cultural borders that you can't use, because you don't have cities near there, such as the hill southwest of Ur, and west of Ur also. You have a lot of open tiles in the south where I would put cities also. A settler bought from Agade this very turn (instead of a worker) can also help you to plant up near those horses sooner. You have a lot of good tiles in terms of production near Ur which you could use if you had more cities in the spots I've mentioned (even more so once cleared in one case).

In general, I wouldn't recommend worrying about infrastructure all that much, other than some granaries and possibly barracks if you really fear an AI (the Celts lie FAR too far away to worry about them, in my opinion), until you've settled all the tiles that you can, and you have plenty of workers. On this map, 15 workers for 12 cities isn't even close to enough. You need a lot more to clear the marsh and jungle that you can use. Also, when you have a city hit size 12 like that of Ur or Sumer, you don't want it to have extra food in the box for long. Mine or forest tiles so that you can maximize the number of shields you pump out of that city.

I'd swap Sumer to the Forbidden Palace, and NOT chop that forest near it. Instead mine a tile near it so you might get the Forbidden Palace in faster. You might also want to take the luxury slider higher even to say 60% so your citizens can work more tiles. You have the Great Library and so much potential territory that researching later on whenever you want to shouldn't pose much of a problem at all. You don't need courthouses in cities like Sumer. In other words, in core cities you rarely, if ever, can profit enough from a courthouse.

Temples and cathedrals might come as advisable on this map, but you really can use so many workers and settlers to settle and develop so much more territory that seems far away to me. You said this

ionize said:
This world is really frustrating with jungle en mass, marshes too and no luxury in sight.

I also feel frustrated with no luxuries in sight. But, jungles and marshes don't frustrate me in general (unless playing for a fast domination/conquest game), because 1. they consist of uncleared grassland. Once you clear them, you have rather powerful tiles. 2. Jungles like this usually hide coal, so you almost surely won't have a problem getting coal in the industrial age. 3. Marshes usually hide oil if you get into a real pinch. 4. The AIs generally don't even try and settle near jungles and marshes. 5. You can clear those tiles in general far more effectively than the AIs since you can put out more workers to clear them than the AIs ever will (using stacks of workers on unroaded squares in this case can work out very well).

Don't bother researching to Democracy. Going Monotheism-Theology-Education-Banking/Astronomy before going on the lower path often works out well, since the AIs generally prefer the lower path, and thus you can get to techs first and trade for the AIs techs and possibly luxuries (not here for a while). But, revolting to Democracy from a Republic doesn't make sense unless you play as religious (and it might not even then).

Again, you really can use A LOT more workers and settlers on this map.

Spoonwood · Feb 1, 2012

darski said:
2 industrious workers road a tile in ONE turn!

That only happens if you have 2 industrious workers (pre Replaceable Parts) stacked on one flatland tile, and they both build the road. This doesn't factor in how much time you've spent in moving those workers to that tile.

VMXA said:
For all but special games, you do not need to lose a lot of sleep over lost turns going from a tile you just worked to another tile to work, as long as you get there that turn.

If you are going for a score or it is an team game or a very tough game the lost turns to stop doing are the ones, where you move to a tile and mine or irrigate and do not make a road. Where you go over several unroaded tiles to get to the tile you want to work.

Even more important is working tiles that are of no immediate value. Like mining a mountain that is not worked and probably will not be for some time.

Cutting jungle, where you are not going to work that tile. Putting too many workers in a stack for the task at hand or too few.

Improving a tile with the wrong improvement or at the wrong time. Like mining a grass, when you are starving.

Worse of all is not having enough workers to come close to improving tiles in the core towns that are being worked.

It is good to understand the optimal use of workers, but if players just stop making really poor use of workers, they would be fine.

The other consideration is the game situation. It can come to pass that wasting turns is required in war conditions, like getting a road on an otherwise useless jungle. This so your knight can attack and them move back into town, rather than left out to get attacked.

Try to not pass over a tile without a road and leave it without one. Try to not pass back and forth in the early going with workers. Try to not leave the capitol and its next towns with no workers, while they are still growing.

I think I agree that in most games "you do not need to lose a lot of sleep over lost turns going from a tile you just worked to another tile to work, as long as you get there that turn." as you put it VMXA, given that you have a fair amount of workers in the first place. Not having enough workers comes as a serious drawback, while not optimizing worker turns comes on an entirely different level and seems minor in comparison at least. I think I also agree with the rest of the post.

That said, I would NOT recommend one start a game planning to stack them. I'd recommend that one start a game planning to use only one worker per road on a flatland tile as much as one reasonably can do so. Game situation will often dictate a better play otherwise absolutely, like roading to a neighbor so you might trade for their extra luxury source, to clear marsh or jungle in a situation like this possibly, or for a war.

Spoonwood · Feb 1, 2012

How would everyone else having this much marsh and jungle around on a map like this?

To me with this much marsh and jungle, the game seems more easily played for a spaceship launch with clearing it all, especially with the AIs so far away. But, would you want to do this playing for conquest/domination since that would imply probably more wars later on, or would you more seek to clear less of it, and just try to overwhelm the AIs earlier? Or do rails and more workers counterbalance going to war later on for say an "average" player? Does anyone know of any similar situation in a COTM competition to see what different players did with a start like this?

ionize · Feb 2, 2012

Thanks Spoonwood for that wall of text. It's really helpful.

f) The Pyramids in Zabalam, and sell all your granaries.

Sounds reasonable. With the SGL The Pyramids will be up very fast. I just hope the AI still goes slow on building wonders and don't pop The Pyramids next turn... :mischief:

If you can pull off the Republic slingshot, don't build the Great Library. I don't know why you had stopped settler and worker production from cities where you built granaries. Generally speaking it works out well to put out settlers and workers from cities with granaries. I would settle on that hill nearest the coast up north of Ur, as well as clearing marsh squares so that you can found cities up there. In other spots you have tiles within your cultural borders that you can't use, because you don't have cities near there, such as the hill southwest of Ur, and west of Ur also. You have a lot of open tiles in the south where I would put cities also. A settler bought from Agade this very turn (instead of a worker) can also help you to plant up near those horses sooner. You have a lot of good tiles in terms of production near Ur which you could use if you had more cities in the spots I've mentioned (even more so once cleared in one case).

In general, I wouldn't recommend worrying about infrastructure all that much, other than some granaries and possibly barracks if you really fear an AI (the Celts lie FAR too far away to worry about them, in my opinion), until you've settled all the tiles that you can, and you have plenty of workers. On this map, 15 workers for 12 cities isn't even close to enough. You need a lot more to clear the marsh and jungle that you can use. Also, when you have a city hit size 12 like that of Ur or Sumer, you don't want it to have extra food in the box for long. Mine or forest tiles so that you can maximize the number of shields you pump out of that city.

This piece is special to me. I usually am allergic to jungle and marsh tiles and hate to consider settling them. But I will try and pump out more workers from my satellite cities and settlers from Ur, Sumer and Lagash (they build fastest).

Currently my workforce is working night and day to erase the jungles near Sumer/Lagash (which is almost done).

I'd swap Sumer to the Forbidden Palace, and NOT chop that forest near it. Instead mine a tile near it so you might get the Forbidden Palace in faster. You might also want to take the luxury slider higher even to say 60% so your citizens can work more tiles. You have the Great Library and so much potential territory that researching later on whenever you want to shouldn't pose much of a problem at all. You don't need courthouses in cities like Sumer. In other words, in core cities you rarely, if ever, can profit enough from a courthouse.

I will try this and see the effect for myself. I mean, I usually build the FP farther away from my capital than just two tiles. :lol:

How would everyone else having this much marsh and jungle around on a map like this?

To me with this much marsh and jungle, the game seems more easily played for a spaceship launch with clearing it all, especially with the AIs so far away. But, would you want to do this playing for conquest/domination since that would imply probably more wars later on, or would you more seek to clear less of it, and just try to overwhelm the AIs earlier? Or do rails and more workers counterbalance going to war later on for say an "average" player? Does anyone know of any similar situation in a COTM competition to see what different players did with a start like this?

Thanks for asking this. I hope other more experienced players than I will provide some answers. For me it's a first to play this kind of map. :crazyeye:

ionize · Feb 2, 2012

Oh I forgot to address the victory conditions. Initially it was supposed to be Conquest, but I didn't wage a single war so far. Meh... :blush:

At the moment I think about Diplomatic or Spacerace. But maybe (with more cities on my continent and use of all the good tiles) I can still start massing an army and steamroll those pesky rivals. :lol:

ionize · Feb 2, 2012

Just played a couple of turns. Jungle is 60% gone, marsh next. My core is strong and I hit a Golden Age. Pumping a lot of military at the moment and then... The Celts declared on me and are now throwing archers only at my MID, pikemen and archers. :lol:

Have two galleons ready with 1MID 1settler each and will go in the offense in their territory.

Hope to give you an update this evening, or tomorrow evening. It depends.

[Edit:]
Only problem is, I can't use my trebuchets, because of the hills and mountains. :lol:

del62 · Feb 2, 2012

ionize said:
With the SGL The Pyramids will be up very fast. I just hope the AI still goes slow on building wonders and don't pop The Pyramids next turn...

An SGL will build the pyramids immediately, which I assume triggered your Golden Age

ionize · Feb 2, 2012

Ah, OK! The GA helped me a lot. I capture my first Celtic city and am pushing Celtic archers around left and right. I think I aim for the long haul and destroy Brennus outright. After that the continent is nearly 100% mine, apart from some pesky colonies (cities) from the Netherlands and Persia (but hey Conquest right ahead :mischief:

).

Raliuven · Feb 2, 2012

del62 said:
An SGL will build the pyramids immediately, which I assume triggered your Golden Age

Just a clarification - if you use the SGL it will reduce the build time of the Pyramids to 1 turn. You do not receive it the turn you use the SGL. You will receive it on the following turn.

However, because of the game mechanics, the wonder will build before the AI's production takes effect. Long story short, if you only have 1 turn left on a wonder build you will build it regardless* of what the AI does, build wise. The human gets the better end of this deal.

*Of course the AI could seize or raze the city. Or it could flip.

In addition, invasions by the AI may steal away/pillage shield producing tiles and pollution may do the same and cause your build to go an additional turn. But unless your build margin is razor thin (nice micromanging :goodjob:

) this is rarely ever a factor. It is also a non-issue with SGLs as the SGL fills the production box to 100% of the needed shields.

And, lastly, city riots. If the shield box is not full then this will delay you. If you use a SGL, however, IIRC because the shield box is 100% full the wonder would produce regardless.

Spoonwood · Feb 2, 2012

ionize said:
Only problem is, I can't use my trebuchets, because of the hills and mountains

Once you have roads on those mountains, your trebuchets (and cannons and other units with similar restrictions) can cross over those squares. Actually, can't trebuchets cross hills, but not mountains and jungles without roads? Stacking workers on unroaded mountains to build roads faster so that you can move your artillery units to the war front earlier, I think, does make sense.

ionize · Feb 3, 2012

Spoonwood said:
Once you have roads on those mountains, your trebuchets (and cannons and other units with similar restrictions) can cross over those squares. Actually, can't trebuchets cross hills, but not mountains and jungles without roads? Stacking workers on unroaded mountains to build roads faster so that you can move your artillery units to the war front earlier, I think, does make sense.

I was thinking about shipping them in once I established a coastal city on the other site of the mountain range. I got a strong fleet and want my mass of workers rather to cut down those jungles and marshes.

CommandoBob · Feb 3, 2012

ionize said:
Oh I forgot to address the victory conditions. Initially it was supposed to be Conquest, but I didn't wage a single war so far. Meh... At the moment I think about Diplomatic or Spacerace. But maybe (with more cities on my continent and use of all the good tiles) I can still start massing an army and steamroll those pesky rivals.

Oh, don't worry.

If they won't bring war to you, just take the war to them. :trouble:

They'll understand.

ionize · Feb 3, 2012

CommandoBob said:
Oh, don't worry.

If they won't bring war to you, just take the war to them.

They'll understand.

Oh, at the moment Brennus is bleeding for is disrespect. :lol:

So here is an update!

Turn-log inside: (Warning! 30 turns

)

Spoiler :

Long story short, I conquered one city so far... War is going slow, but steady.
Some interesting facts:
1. Brennus has no iron. He only throws archers and longbows at me.

2. Two GLs so far. One MID army is already en-route to the front, the other will form soon.
3. It was not just me who got f**ked over by the terrain. America, Netherlands and Hittites are knee-deep in jungle and surrounded by mountains as well.
4. Only Brennus and Xerxes got really lucky with terrain. I will be happy to conquer Celtic land and make it my own. We are the bor.... .... ah! Wrong text. :lol:

For those too lazy to read the log, here is some further info.

Rival check:
------------------------------------------------------------------
Celts (Republic), 15 cities, war, strong to, -Education
Hittites (Republic), 11 cities, peace, strong to, -Chivalry -Invention
-Education
America (Republic), 12 cities, peace, strong to, -Engineering -Chivalry
-Education
Netherlands (Republic), 12 cities, peace, strong to, -Monotheism
-Feudalism -Engineering
Persia (Republic), 10 cities, peace, strong to
------------------------------------------------------------------

And I realized how long turns can get when you wage a war... :crazyeye:

ionize · Feb 4, 2012

As the Celtic war is going well and I will have Brennus sacked within the next 10-20 turns I'm looking for excuses to get the war to the new frontier (a.k.a. the other continent). I'm no good with intercontinental wars and could need some advice here.

Here are a few information:
- Got a few galleons and am saving up for upgrades at the moment.
- Got two cities on the other continent (for wines and horses, which I got connected via sea trade thanks to astronomy and navigation).
- The land is hard rocks in the middle and tons of jungle to the NE and SE.
- The only two nations which look scary to me at the moment are the Americans (they are big) and Persia (they got Gunpowder and a lot of closed in fertile land to the NE of their continent).

Now two additional questions are:
1.) Do I start a new war now, while I fight Brennus? How should I do it?
2.) Do I sign in as many allies as possible to get them all to waste units?

CommandoBob · Feb 4, 2012

A lot depends on how your cities are defended and how easy it is to send them more units. Do you have a ship chain set up to those new cities?

If the cities are well defended and they can be reinforced rather easily, then going to war over there and signing up allies into MAs is a good plan. If nothing else, you allies will bleed your target a bit while you finish up on the homeland. They fight and you watch.

Make sure the MAs are tied to gold per turn. Too often, if you give someone a tech for an MA, they'll do a half hearted job of the war; half-hearted even by AI standards. A few units will trudge to the front line, flex their muscles and then that AI makes peace with your target. They gain a tech and you gained nothing. Using gpt, resouces or, as a last resort, luxuries, will keep them at war longer, since even if they do nothing active they get paid. And an inactive ally is better than an active foe.

The longer they are at war with the target means that the target cannot trade with them for goodies. And that helps you.

Can you post a save?

ionize · Feb 4, 2012

@CommandoBob Ok! Thanks for the info. I have now killed the Celts and have a period where I want to relax (or rather I want to ship my army over :mischief:

).

Here is the turn-log (BIG, 50 turns!!)

Spoiler :

It took me all these turns to get rid of the Celts. I'm super inexperienced with war. :blush:

Anyways, the task is done. Brennus is gone and every single city but one (it got Sun Tzu's) is razed to the ground (conquer, keep, abandon :mischief:

).

The other continent won't be a problem, they are all a bunch of peace loving people. The problem might be their cities on my continent, but I think I just leave some gatekeepers behind.

Not sure whom to go for:
1. I kinda respect the Hittites. But their territory is spread out and would be hard to pick apart anyways.
2. The Americans seem the hardest. They got a huge chunk of land and never once used up units. Could be fun.

3. The Dutch look really week and lacked behind all the time.
4. To me the Persians are a joke. Xerxes plays the big scientist, leading ever since I started waking Brennus. He grabbed 3-4 cities on my continent, but apart from that I don't hold him for a tough nut (though Immortals are...).

My choice would be the Hittites at the moment (ignore what I wrote above). They got only one city on my continent and I can lance right into their main land and start waking Mursilis cities to pieces. Maybe I get the Dutch or Americans in for the war, but at the moment I'm short on cash (thank you war weariness :cry:

) and only even in tech.

Mh! I think about catching up in tech first and ship my stuff over. Will take 5-10 turns and I could be ready to roll.

Any c&c welcome!

Spoonwood · Feb 5, 2012

You can acquire a luxury from the Hittites via gpt and lower the luxury slider a tick if you like. You do have marketplaces after all. I don't see why you've decided to build both banks and universities. If you want to do research universities can make sense, but if you don't, then banks can make sense. I don't see why you've mined out in extremely corrupt areas. Generally speaking (an exception does exist, but it's not worth mentioning), ares with extremely high corruption work out better as irrigated than mined, since food doesn't corrupt, while shields do. I also don't see a need for a harbor in a game like in a very, very corrupt area.

Who do you want to attack? You're strong to everyone else on the planet.

ionize · Feb 5, 2012

Good points (especially nothing I ever considered). So you mean I should specialize my core cities to either cash or beakers (banks vs universities)? Makes sense! I always considered having both is good. Stupid me. :eek:

Well irrigating all the corrupt cities should be no problemo, I got an army of workers at my disposal. Which leaves the question what to construct in those corrupt nests? granaries I got through The Pyramids, which leaves aqueducts.

I build harbors for the extra food. What else should I build in cities with 1spt. I just let them get a harbor and be done with it for 20-40 turns. Make a suggestion! To be honest I was always weak with those far-away cities. I see them as being there to grab land, increase my overall land/population and be the stage for future wars (in case they are on a different continent/border). :mischief:

Your suggestion with the lux leads me to this solution for future wars:
- acquire spices from Hittites for gpt
- war with America (I want to eliminate my strongest rival first).
- also I will get my banks and keep those universities. I need to emphasize cash for a bit, but will get back on the research lane soon. The AI is still slow and I can catch up easily. The banks will come in handy when I want to upgrade my units.

Any more comments and criticism?

Play by play: A go at Monarch

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