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Play by play: A go at Monarch

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Strategy & Tips' started by ionize, Jan 28, 2012.

  1. vmxa

    vmxa Deity

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    It is true, so just switch the setlter build to something else and pop the hut. Then switch it back. Works just fine. I have popped a settler that way many times.
     
  2. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    I don't know why you placed both workers on the same un-roaded square. You spend two total turns in just movement doing this. If you place just one worker there, you only spend 1 total turn in moving to the square. So, in general, you don't want to stack workers on unroaded squares. Exceptions do exist, but you would do well to literally write the reason for doing such, or perhaps state the reason for doing so out-loud, or something similar to get you to really think if you want to stack workers on unroaded squares, as doing so wastes worker turns.

    Sorry if that comes as a littler overbearing... I played a succession game recently where even though I thought my partner had agreed not to stack workers on unroaded squares, he kept on doing so seemingly arbitrarily.
     
  3. ionize

    ionize Chieftain

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    Ok, that means I don't stack workers on unroaded tiles, but spread them out and road different tiles? And in general work individual tiles with a single worker only? What about urgent roads like warpaths, or to resources/luxuries?

    I kept stacking workers to get the terrain improvements more quickly. And in the IA for polution.
     
  4. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    Yes.

    In general, work unroaded tiles with a single worker only. If you have a road on the tile, then stacking can make sense. For what combinations of workers make sense in terms of stacking, I'd consult here. It might take a while to figure that out at first, perhaps, but it does end up simple after a while.

    It depends on the urgency and the value of having such roads up earlier. Yes, that sort of situation can come as an exception, and I think, can work out better than not stacking the workers. But, remember, every time you do that, you lose at least one worker turn by stacking.

    With regards to pollution, in the IA I'd hope you'd have a fully roaded network, and soon a well railroaded network. In such a case, stacking workers to clean pollution doesn't waste any worker turns, so long as you get the worker combinations right. All workers double in speed once you have Replaceable Parts, including slaves under a non-industrious tribe, except for slaves under an industrious tribe which triple in speed.
     
  5. Fiddlin Nero

    Fiddlin Nero Prince

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    Wow, that sure is a slow way to build roads, especially over anything besides grassland/prairie. I always get the number of workers there to do the task in one turn when possible. I think the only time I reverse it is when I'm clearing a lot of swamp, I go in with enough to road the swamp then follow with enough to clear it, that way I keep the greater number of workers doing something every turn.

    Back to the roading issue Spoonwood, your saying that if I could road a tile with 2 workers in one turn it would take less than four turns to road 2 tiles working alone. And that only applies if I can get to those two tiles in one turn. Sorry I don't see the return on efficiency in eliminating lost movement versus time to complete the task.
     
  6. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    It only workers out as slower when you consider an individual tile. It's NOT slower when you consider things empire wide. If you road a single tile with say 2 industrious workers, and you stack them you spend 2 turns in movement, and 2 turns in roading. So, you spend 4 worker turns doing this, and 2 game turns to build that one road. If you just use one industrious worker here, you spend 1 turn in movement, and 2 turns in roading. Thus, you spend 3 worker turns and 3 game turns in building that road. So, you do get that particular road slower in terms of game time if you don't stack, but if you do stack workers, you've basically "payed" more for getting that job done quickly. If you want to build 2 roads, and stack the entire time, it takes you 2 game turns to build the first road and 2 game turns to build the second, for 4 total turns. However, if you don't stack them, it takes you 3 total game turns, since two workers move to two distinct squares on the first turn, and then both road on the 2nd and 3rd turns.

    Now, what does that mean more practically in terms of an empire-wide game?

    Well, let's say you have 10 cities, and 80 tiles to road (say you have 12 workable squares per city minus some coast, and some roads already built). You have 20 workers. Now you can

    1. Build 10 roads every 2 turns if you stack those workers. In this case, you spend 16 total game turns building those 80 roads, since (10*8)=80 the number of roads needed and (2*8)=16.

    2. Or if you don't stack those workers you can build 20 roads every 3 game turns. So, it takes you 12 total game turns to build those 80 roads, since (20*4)=80 for the number of roads needed, and thus (3*4)=12 for the number of game turns needed.

    So, empire wide, using workers to build roads doesn't pay off in terms of stacking workers in general.

    How does that happen again? Well, if you stack the workers you spend 2 worker turns to move into a square, and 2 worker turns to road, for 4 worker turns for every road built. Thus, you need 320 worker turns to build all those roads. If you do not stack those workers, it takes you 1 worker turn to move into a square, and 2 worker turns to road. So, you need 240 worker turns to build all those roads.

    Things get even worse with non-industrious workers, since if you stack them in 3s, then you spend 3 worker turns in just movement instead of 1. And even if you spend only one turn moving on roads to get to an unroaded spot, with regular workers, that only takes 2 worker turns in terms of movement instead of the 3 needed if you stack those workers. The problem gets even worse when you start talking about slaves.

    How does it come as a problem to get to unroaded tiles in the early game especially? Just build just enough of a network between your cities initially, and you'll usually have plenty of open unroaded spots that your workers can get to without wasting movement. Or build such a network, and don't put all that many mines/irrigation down early, just put roads and then have other workers that move a turn or two on those squares, mine/irrigate them, and then move to the unroaded square after that. Also, you lose even more worker turns by roading anything other than a flatland, hill, or mountain square before clearing it.
     
  7. ionize

    ionize Chieftain

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    Cork, Ireland
    That's a pretty elaborate example, but it shows me what you mean. Yesterday I started thinking about workers without your comment yet around and I came up with pretty much the same. I didn't know the map, but it came kinda logical to think about the amount of worker turns that get lost whenever you stack them on unroaded tiles. Thanks for the help Spoonwood, and Fiddlin Nero for the question that was better set than mine.
     
  8. ionize

    ionize Chieftain

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    Location:
    Cork, Ireland
    OK! I played another 30 turns and my empire is starting to really grow.

    Turn-log inside:
    Spoiler :
    load game

    IBT
    zzz

    Turn 31
    Start roading flood plains SE of Ur

    IBT
    Ur settler => worker

    Turn 32
    Move settler SE of Ur to plains

    IBT
    Volcano erupted

    Turn 33
    Nothing important

    IBT
    Ur worker => settler

    Turn 34
    Found Sumer East of Ur
    Sumer => warrior

    IBT
    zzz

    Turn 35
    Nothing important

    IBT
    zzz

    Turn 36
    Nothing important

    IBT
    zzz

    Turn 37
    Spot goody hut in the NE

    IBT
    zzz

    Turn 38
    We get 25gp from goody hut
    Second volcano to the NE
    Science 60%, Entertainment 40%, Writing in 5 turns -1gpt

    IBT
    Ur Settler => Settler
    Sumer Enkidu => Enkidu

    Turn 39
    Send settler to Sumer, from there East through jungle to spot wit river
    Science 70%, Entertainment 30%, Writing in 4 turns -1gpt
    Two barbarian warriors to the NE

    IBT
    zzz

    Turn 40
    rEnkidu vs cWarrior, clean win
    Spot goody hut in the NE
    Science 80%, Entertainment 20%, Writing in 3 turns -1gpt
    (save)

    IBT
    zzz

    Turn 41
    Science 70%, Entertainment 30%, Writing in 2 turns -1gpt

    IBT
    zzz

    Turn 42
    MM Sumer for more fpt
    Spot island to the far coast SSE of Ur
    We get 25 gp from goody hut
    Science 50%, Entertainment 30%, Writing next turn +1gpt

    IBT
    Writing => Code of Laws
    Ur Settler => worker

    Turn 43
    Move settler to far coast SSE of Ur (there is wheat and good tiles)
    Adjust sliders, CoL in 19 turns

    IBT
    Sumer Enkidu => Enkidu

    Turn 44
    Found Lagash
    Lagash => Enkidu

    IBT
    Sumer worker => settler

    Turn 45
    Nothing important
    Adjust Sliders, CoL in 11 turns

    IBT
    zzz

    Turn 46
    Nothing important

    IBT
    zzz

    Turn 47
    rEnkidu vs cWarrior, clean win

    IBT
    Sumer Enkidu => Granary

    Turn 48
    Nothing important

    IBT
    Sumer settler => worker

    Turn 49
    Second MP in Ur => adjust sliders, CoL in 8 turns
    Send settler also to far coast SSE of Ur

    IBT
    zzz

    Turn 50
    Spot goody hut North of Ur
    (save)

    IBT
    Ur worker => settler

    Turn 51
    Foun Kish on far SSE coast
    Kish => Curragh

    IBT
    Lagash enkidu => enkidu

    Turn 52
    Great road to SSE started

    IBT
    zzz

    Turn 53
    Adjust sliders, CoL in 4 turns
    Goody hut turns into angry barbarians

    IBT
    rEnkidu vs cWarrior, win -1hp, promotes

    Turn 54
    vEnkidu vs cWarrior, clean win

    IBT
    Green warrior walks past Enkidu, who is it???
    Barbarian warrior closing in on vEnkidu. Hahaa!
    Ur settler => worker

    Turn 55
    vEnkidu vs cWarrior, win -2hp, promotes
    Contact celts +The Wheel +Warrior Code +Iron Working -Alphabet (-Writing?)
    Trade Alphabet for Warrior Code +36gp
    Trade Writing for Iron Working +14gp
    Iron on montain NE of Lagash => send settler over
    -----------------------------------------------------
    Celts (Despotism), 5 cities, peace, average to
    -----------------------------------------------------

    IBT
    zzz

    Turn 56
    Adjust sliders, CoL next turn +16gpt

    IBT
    CoL => Philosophy
    Adjust slideres, Philosophy in 8 turns
    Ur worker => settler
    Lagash enkidu => enkidu

    Turn 57
    Cut down forest near Sumer for faster granary

    IBT
    zzz

    Turn 58
    Spot barbarian camp at far Eastern coast from Lagash
    MM cities

    IBT
    Pliny tells us the happiest nations, we are dead last. #1 Hitties, #2 Persians

    Turn 59
    Found Umma SW of Kish
    Umma => curragh
    rEnkidu vs cWarrior, clean win, get 25gp from camp
    Adjust sliders for entertainment

    IBT
    Cultral expand in Ur
    The ruler's cave turns into a palace

    Turn 60
    rEnkidu vs cWarrior, clean loss :(
    Holy cow, a barbarian camp close to Ur! :D
    (save & quit)
    It took me so long to get in contact with anybody. I felt like Sumeria was all alone on the continent. This way I was desperate to trade for Iron Working (and soon The Wheel) to get the resources spotted. Was that a mistake? I mean, the deals were fine with me and I will have Philosophy soon (and hopefully The Republic by that :) ).

    My next steps will be to settle a town near the iron (a settler is on his way). To settle two more town at my Southern location and to explore the island in the low South with my soon-to-be curragh.

    Please take a look around and read my log to give any further suggestions.
     

    Attached Files:

  9. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    1. Generally you don't want to start clearing marsh or jungle (forests work differently) until you've developed (most of) the other tiles nearby. It just takes too long to clear those tiles, when you could use those workers for something else.

    2. I understand why you've got enkidus fortified in Ur. That said, the more enkidus you have out "lighting" the land, the fewer barbarians you will have to fight. A barbarian camp can't appear in any square in sight of a unit with attack and defense.

    3. Ur can use the lake instead of the floodplain square. It gives it the same output.

    4. Irrigate those floodplains for Sumer. You can get 3 food out of each of those squares.

    5. You do want to settle the desert between Sumer and Kish. Actually, I don't know why you sent your settlers south to that grassland first, but I don't think it'll matter. Since you're playing as agricultural, once irrigated, those desert squares give you 2 food each instead of 1 food if you played non-agricultural. So, that desert area actually has a greater value than you might expect.

    6. I would have traded Alphabet, but not Writing. Someone might now pop Philosophy from a hut since you've traded Writing.
     
  10. ionize

    ionize Chieftain

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    60
    Location:
    Cork, Ireland
    @1. You're right! Well, I keep it for now, but refrain from doing other such tiles until all other good tiles are done.
    @2. I got enough Enkidus on patrol around gray areas, to keep Barbarians camps from popping, too bad that one near Ur had come to life. But I think I can get rid of that pretty quick.
    @3. and 4. Thanks for the advice. :)
    @5. Oh well, I also had the idea to later settle some cities right in the desert cxcxc style to have some excess scientists. As of now the desert is of no big use. I felt like I had to settle the south as it offered good tiles.
    @6. I hope not. We'll see in a few turns. I'd bite my a** if I miss on Philisophy. :blush:

    Gonna continue the game now. I think I can do an update soon.
     
  11. ionize

    ionize Chieftain

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    Location:
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    20 turns later...

    Turn-log inside:
    Spoiler :
    (load game)
    Rival check:
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Celts (Despotism), 5 cities, peace, average to, +The Wheel -Code of Laws
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    IBT
    Barbarians close in on our border
    Forest chop done, 10 shield to Sumer
    Ur settler => worker

    Turn 61
    Found Bad-tibira East of Lagash near 'Iron Montains'
    Bad-tibira => Enkidu
    MM cities

    IBT
    Lagash enkidu => granary

    Turn 62
    Nothing important

    IBT
    eEnkidu vs cWarrior, clean win
    Ur worker => settler

    Turn 63
    rEnkidu vs cWarrior, clean loss :(
    Adjust sliders, Philosophy next turn +3gpt

    IBT
    Philosophy => The Republic (Yay ^.^) => Literature

    Turn 64
    Start anarchy!
    Trade CoL for The Wheel +10gp
    Spot horse NE of Lagash close to the erupted volcano. :(
    Spot Celtic town of Gergovia NE of our lands.

    IBT
    Civil disorder stopped everywhere but in Ur, MM citizen

    Turn 65
    Found Agade between Lagash and Bad-tibira
    Agade => warrior
    Trade Horseback Riding for Philisophy

    IBT
    Order restored in Ur
    Civil disorder in Kish, entertain them...

    Turn 66
    eEnkidu vs cWarrior, win -3hp, net 25gp from camp
    Wow, Celts at eight cities now. We got 7. Got to hurry after anarchy.

    IBT
    Sumeria declares Republic.

    Turn 67
    MM all cities
    Adjust sliders, Literature in 10 turns

    IBT
    Civil disorder in Kish... dow :(
    MM Kish...

    Turn 68
    MM Lagash for gpt and happiness

    IBT
    zzz

    Turn 69
    Nothing important.

    IBT
    Barbarians to the far East
    Sumer granary => settler

    Turn 70
    Nothing important
    (save)

    IBT
    rEnkidu vs cWarrior, win -1hp
    Ur settler => worker
    Kish curragh => granary

    Turn 71
    Curragh sets sail due East and find horses on the island. Don't need to settler
    near volcano after all! :D
    Start settling the desert. The main land is surrounded by montains in the NE
    and marsh in the N or Ur. Until galleons arrive I will settle the desert and
    start libraries asap.

    IBT
    Bad-tibira enkidu => granary

    Turn 72
    Nothing important

    IBT
    Ur worker => settler

    Turn 73
    Found Erech in the desert
    Erech => curragh

    Rival check:
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    Celts (Despotism), 8 cities, peace, weak to, -The Republic
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    Change builds in Erech and Bad-tibira to Enkidus

    IBT
    rEnkidu vs cWarrior, clean win, promotes
    People want to built the Forbidden Palace
    Civil disorder in Kish... again. :( (need to check the F1 screen more properly)
    Agade enkidu => enkidu

    Turn 74
    Celtic warriors coming to our lands from different directions.

    IBT
    Literature => Map Making

    Turn 75
    Turn one citizen in Lagash into a scientist.

    IBT
    Barbarians in the North

    Turn 76
    Nothing important

    IBT
    10 shields return to Kish
    Ur settler => library
    Sumer settler => library
    Umma curragh => curragh

    Turn 77
    Trade The Republic for Map Making and 25gp

    IBT
    vEnkidu vs cWarrior, clean win
    Erech enkidu => archer

    Turn 78
    Nothing important

    IBT
    zzz

    Turn 79
    Found Isin in desert valley
    Isin => enkidu
    Build embassy in Entremont (Celts), size 4, The Oracle in 50 turns
    MM Lagash citizen back to work
    Adjust sliders, Masonry in 2 gp breaking even

    IBT
    Kish civil disorder again....
    Bad-tibira enkidu => archer

    Turn 80
    Have to give Kish a scientist, else they won't budge from civil disorder. :(
    Adjust sliders, Masonry next turn +6gpt
    Check rivals
    -----------------------------------------------------------------
    Celts (Republic), 8 cities, peace, average to, -Literature
    -----------------------------------------------------------------
    (save & quit)
    Though some of you may call me crazy I started settlements in the desert. I thought I had no better immediate choice with the marshes North of Ur and the mountains which directly close my border in the NE.

    I hope to make contacts in the next turn-set(s) with my two scouting curragh. So far it has been just the Celts and me.

    I also fear that the Celts will start a war with me some time in the future. For now I'm average compared to them (again), but I need to start pumping stronger units. What with the damn dreadful territory and all, I was thinking about barracks in Ur and Sumer and pimping some Swordmen once I hook up the iron (finally). Maybe I can battle the Celts for fertile/productive ground and establish my Forbidden Palace there. Any suggestions?
     

    Attached Files:

  12. del62

    del62 Deity

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    Location:
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    You will get the library in Ur a turn earlier as you will pick up extra shields on growth

    In sumer you could pick up an extra 3 shields plus probably 2 more on growth without losing a turn of growth

    On growth of these two turns you will be helping your unit support.

    You could settle in the forest areas north and north east of ur, I would definately settle on the forest 4 tiles North East of Ur allowing it to be on the lake

    You have to make a judgement in a town like Kish whether to raise luxuries or hire a scientist or taxman to maintain order (but not an entertainer)

    Cant tell from here but how many workers do you have?

    I noticed no luxuries to your cities, do you have none near by?
     
  13. del62

    del62 Deity

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    Another thing now you are in repbublic I would not build military anywhere without a barracks except in emergency.
     
  14. vmxa

    vmxa Deity

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    I wonder why you would put Bad-tibira there and not move it over to the coast? You gain some coastal tiles at no cost. Unless you are planning on going to all war footing, you do not need strict cxxc.

    Kish I would also have put on the coast for the extra tiles (coastal).

    Colony is pretty much a waste of a worker at this point, well at nearly any point. You need that worker and now it is gone for what? You have Iron, but no real need of it right now and a single settler and that lost worker would have given you iron in few turns.

    Not looking at the save, so I am only guessing here. I would not be anxious to make troops with no barrack after my first 2-3 warriors. Do not be concerned about the Celts as it is very unlikely they will go to war right now.

    You do not need to take them down, unless you can eliminate them. IOW the only purpose to attack them is to kill them, before they can get Galic Swords. You are not going to be able to do that I suspect.
     
  15. del62

    del62 Deity

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    Having a thought about Kish with its disorder problems, you may want to pull of a worker or settler to reduce its pop every so often
     
  16. ionize

    ionize Chieftain

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    Thanks a bunch for the feedback. Let me address a few things:
    The problem with that particular spot is, that it's all jungle and not forest. I think it would be a real problem to clear all the tiles at them moment. But that again, the lake is of some use and can sustain fpt.

    I don't know it by hard, but it should be around 8-9 workers at the moment (if you look at the screen you can count 8 workers).

    Not a single one. This world is really frustrating with jungle en mass, marshes too and no luxury in sight. At this point I can address the Kish problem as well. I will opt for scientists/taxmen in the future instead of raising entertainment %.

    OK! I keep that in mind. I will hook up iron and gets some barracks set up and start swordmen/archer then (and only then). I got a good force of enkidu at the moment and should be able to fend of Celtic troops in any case, unless they bring their UU along.

    I build no colony! I build Bad-tibira in range of the iron resource and just need to hook it up, after the city is connected to my road-network.

    OK! I will reconsider my city placement. I won't change the current cities, but will keep it in the back of my mind for the future.

    I got some time to play a few more turns now and the game is starting to be really fun. I will hop right in. Thanks again for your criticism, it helped me a lot so far (as did the turn-logs. HELL! They really come handy! :lol: )
     
  17. Fiddlin Nero

    Fiddlin Nero Prince

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    Excellent and thank you! I'll try to get a handle on this my next game. It should be challenging to get my core roaded this way. As long as people understand that you need to keep the next tile to be roaded within a single turns reach to make this effective.
     
  18. darski

    darski Regent in Training

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    2 industrious workers road a tile in ONE turn!
     
  19. vmxa

    vmxa Deity

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    For all but special games, you do not need to lose a lot of sleep over lost turns going from a tile you just worked to another tile to work, as long as you get there that turn.

    If you are going for a score or it is an team game or a very tough game the lost turns to stop doing are the ones, where you move to a tile and mine or irrigate and do not make a road. Where you go over several unroaded tiles to get to the tile you want to work.

    Even more important is working tiles that are of no immediate value. Like mining a mountain that is not worked and probably will not be for some time.

    Cutting jungle, where you are not going to work that tile. Putting too many workers in a stack for the task at hand or too few.

    Improving a tile with the wrong improvement or at the wrong time. Like mining a grass, when you are starving.

    Worse of all is not having enough workers to come close to improving tiles in the core towns that are being worked.

    It is good to understand the optimal use of workers, but if players just stop making really poor use of workers, they would be fine.

    The other consideration is the game situation. It can come to pass that wasting turns is required in war conditions, like getting a road on an otherwise useless jungle. This so your knight can attack and them move back into town, rather than left out to get attacked.

    Try to not pass over a tile without a road and leave it without one. Try to not pass back and forth in the early going with workers. Try to not leave the capitol and its next towns with no workers, while they are still growing.
     
  20. darski

    darski Regent in Training

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    These are pretty much the guidelines I use. I do have a bad habit of thinking of the empire when I should be working my Core.:blush:
     

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