Player stats, sales, and reception speculation thread

[CliffCo]

I regularly check for new civ 7 vids.
Potato was doing great when he wasn't involved directly. He has burned, plain and simple, and needs time to recover.
Ursa gives me headaches every time I watch his content cuz he speaks too much, but has good cinematics cuts here and there and keeps me hooked.
I make some civ video from time to time but I'm terrible at editing. Some of my vids are very critical and I have no fences to guard.
Potato made two videos. One was biased, the other was critical. And got burned. I would have doubled down.

I've found videos by quill18 worth watching in the past, he's not as obnoxious as some of the others.

 

[Gorbles]

Oh, I see. You don't want to impugn the abilities of the programmers (naturally), but if a programmer writes code that he himself knows is sub-standard in order to meet an unrealistic deadline that has been set for him, I would call that both bad code and bad coding. He's not at fault for the bad coding, but it is (even in his own estimation) bad coding, i.e. not the work he would do under a reasonable deadline.

Sure, but that's unhelpful pedantry when it comes to diagnosing efforts on how to do better in the future. I am assuming that that's what you're trying to delve into, apologies if I'm two-for-two on getting that assumption wrong (as I did with bumpyglint).

If I know something is a bad fix, and I tell the people above me it's a bad fix, and they tell me to do it anyway, then it's not "bad coding", it's "doing as I'm told". These things have acceptance criteria, go through QA (to the surprise of some here, no doubt), etc, et al. It's not on the programmer to determine that the fix is good enough for whatever release it's going into. Somebody else makes that call (whether it's a manager, QA, the QA lead, or a combination thereof).

To give a historic example for when I worked at a startup, we didn't really have a product team, so my code (as a junior) went through two seniors, and on occasion one of those seniors would clear it with the boss (CEO of eight people I guess is still a CEO). Nowadays my code would go through one or two peers (I don't really have anyone senior to me anymore so far as programming goes), and if it's a bodge job, this is communicated to them, and also to product if this has an impact on either the actual product, or something as simple as future maintenance for the area in question.

If Isabella is supposed, as a one-time matter, to get gold for every natural wonder, but the coding is such that she gets that not just in antiquity, but at the shift from antiquity to exploration and again at the shift from exploration to modern, wouldn't that represent a poor way to code that game effect? i.e. poor code. And however it came about, poor coding.

You're stopping the casual chain at the typing of the code. As others have attempted to point out, that's not generally where the causal chain stops, and hypnotising devs into only writing good code wouldn't solve the actual problem. Not being tongue-in-cheek, you can substitute whatever improvement at the programmer level you desire. My point is that it won't fix the actual issue, and the symptoms will manifest in a different way (e.g. if you force developers to take the time to only write good code, the same poor management or rushed deadlines will simply cause the code to be incomplete at point of code freeze, which introduces other issues).

 

[youngsteve]

I've found videos by quill18 worth watching in the past, he's not as obnoxious as some of the others.

I agree that his videos can be informative, but he has an annoying whiny voice which grates on you after awhile.

 

[Gori the Grey]

You're stopping the casual chain at the typing of the code.

I typed a long response, but I'll just settle for reassuring you on this point. No. That's not where I'm centering responsibility. (And I can guess why you're sensitive to this; you must often have told superiors "this is a bad fix" and been told, because of exigencies of the project, "do it anyway). I'm including in the definition of the word "coding" the activity of the person most responsible for pre-envisioning the program as a totality (its underlying logic) and coordinating all of the smaller parts of it so that they fit in the proper spot of that logic. I'll call that person the project manager, but his or her fundamental qualification is to know what makes for a well-designed computer program (and so I'm assuming the person who fills this role tends to come up through the ranks of programmers).

I'm happy to use a different term to describe how Isabella is handled improperly in Civ VII as it presently stands--that the game was poorly "project-managed," say--but the problem bumpyglint identified manifests itself within the code, and so a shorthand for a lot of people will be to say that the game is poorly coded.

 

[CliffCo]

I agree that his videos can be informative, but he has an annoying whiny voice which grates on you after awhile.

I find ursa ryan's voice much more annoying, i just can't make myself watch his videos.

 

[user746383]

I can’t watch Quill, his style is too “gee willikers aww shucks” for me, not sure how else to describe it, it doesn’t come across as how a normal human would act. Potato seems bitter, Marbozir has a funny voice but he seems smart and I appreciate how he talks about strategy so I put up with it. I guess they have all sort of given up on civ though for the moment at least. Maybe @TheMeInTeam will come back some day

 

[Gorbles]

I typed a long response, but I'll just settle for reassuring you on this point. No. That's not where I'm centering responsibility. (And I can guess why you're sensitive to this; you must often have told superiors "this is a bad fix" and been told, because of exigencies of the project, "do it anyway). I'm including in the definition of the word "coding" the activity of the person most responsible for pre-envisioning the program as a totality (its underlying logic) and coordinating all of the smaller parts of it so that they fit in the proper spot of that logic. I'll call that person the project manager, but his or her fundamental qualification is to know what makes for a well-designed computer program (and so I'm assuming the person who fills this role tends to come up through the ranks of programmers).

I'm happy to use a different term to describe how Isabella is handled improperly in Civ VII as it presently stands--that the game was poorly "project-managed," say--but the problem bumpyglint identified manifests itself within the code, and so a shorthand for a lot of people will be to say that the game is poorly coded.

shrugs

Poor project management is a separate phrase to poor coding. You were the one proposing that we call the issue with Isabella's ability to as representing "a poor way to code that game effect".

I don't really know what you're trying to get at, at this point. It comes across as trying to "well actually" my objection to what I perceived as an inaccurate assumption at the time (something bumpyglint and I already got to the root of r.e. wording and expectations. We're good!). Whether you are or not. I really don't take offense at people saying "code bad". I just like expanding on the assumption because hey, it's an area of domain expertise for me. Similar to stealth_nsk I'm guessing.

If "a lot of people" are using inaccurate shorthand, then any discussion depends entirely on their underlying position. Kinda impossible to generalise. It's certainly not much of an argument to say "but what if a load of people were using a word or phrase incorrectly". Or, I guess, it's a different set of goalposts I'm not really interested in.

People can believe whatever they want to believe. Very little that I say will change that!

 

[Gori the Grey]

I have no particular investment in the matter, so I'm happy to let it lie.

 

[Dale]

I think this is an unfair generalisation to anyone who cares about whatever they're building. Any kind of software team has people who are invested in the product, and people who are just clocking a 9 - 5. Guessing at the %s is always going to end up with nothing more than what you think, in the industry or not. That's something that only data at scale can answer - not individual feelings.

I've known plenty of developers invested in the game they're making, in the AA-AAA space over the years. Passion still exists. Passion explains how wages are lower compared to the same kinds of skillsets in regular software developers, because that passion (and the external glamour of "working on games, wow") is what publishers sell to make sure jobs are replaceable.

But knowing the % is a complete fool's errand.

I want to point out, I did NOT mean passion for your work. But passion for the game in particular. Wanting to do a good job and be proud of it, is a very different thing to wanting to help make the best Civ 4x game. I would hope that everyone wants to do a good job and be proud of it, but in no way do I have any expectations about those same people wanting to help make the best Civ 4x game.

It's impossible to implement cross-platform modding tools if they are as deep as in Civ5 (DLL). Binary code is incompatible and native libraries use different formats.
If cross-platform modding tools will come out, they'll have roughly the same modding capabilities as current mods, just with some fancy wrapper.

That's just simply not correct. That is coming from someone who has implemented cross-platform modding platforms and tools in games. I suggest you look up platforms such as Modio and their API/tools.

 

[Gorbles]

I want to point out, I did NOT mean passion for your work. But passion for the game in particular. Wanting to do a good job and be proud of it, is a very different thing to wanting to help make the best Civ 4x game. I would hope that everyone wants to do a good job and be proud of it, but in no way do I have any expectations about those same people wanting to help make the best Civ 4x game.

I guess my baseline is still that there's no way of knowing this beyond knowing people individually. I also value diversification of outlook in a wide team (if everyone was 100% passionate about 4x games, sure you'd have good domain knowledge, but you'd struggle with the lateral moves). That's my position though, and I haven't been able to put it to the test yet.

That said, I completely agree insofar as not having expectations goes. Judge the product on its own merits, and don't buy based on thinking that it'll be good one day, if it's not good for you now.

 

[Dale]

I guess my baseline is still that there's no way of knowing this beyond knowing people individually. I also value diversification of outlook in a wide team (if everyone was 100% passionate about 4x games, sure you'd have good domain knowledge, but you'd struggle with the lateral moves). That's my position though, and I haven't been able to put it to the test yet.

That said, I completely agree insofar as not having expectations goes. Judge the product on its own merits, and don't buy based on thinking that it'll be good one day, if it's not good for you now.

As usual, the assumed disclaimer should be that any percentage I used was opinion, not based on fact.

But my opinion is based on over 30 years in software development, in commercial, industrial, entertainment (TV specifically), cloud, and now games. Most people are just there to pay the bills. Their interest in the specific piece of software they're working on is usually pretty low. But most people are also passionate about doing a good job and being proud of what they did.

 

[Gorbles]

Can't argue that I'm in software to pay the bills. I definitely am. But I also work on something I'm passionate about at the same time. Anecdote being an anecdote too, of course.

 

[reddishrecue]

I can’t watch Quill, his style is too “gee willikers aww shucks” for me, not sure how else to describe it, it doesn’t come across as how a normal human would act. Potato seems bitter, Marbozir has a funny voice but he seems smart and I appreciate how he talks about strategy so I put up with it. I guess they have all sort of given up on civ though for the moment at least. Maybe @TheMeInTeam will come back some day

U know what? I kinda miss some of these characters as well. Its been awhile since I've heard from some of them.

 

[Bug Repellent]

Civ 7 is just not up to the standards for this glorious franchise. I really tried to like it after over 4,000 hrs in Civ 6. But I just can't. It just looks... unplayable. Even the simple stuff, like map readability. I have a 32" 4K monitor and I can't make sense of what's going on. Seriously, how many minutes do you need to understand the map below? There's no way this game is suitable for huge, +12 players maps with each player having +10 cities. In Civ 6 in 10 seconds I can get a very good idea what's going on in another player's civ. In Civ 7, can anyone tell me what districts/buildings are in Paris? Or read the tiny yield numbers? There's no wonder streamers cannot gain traction for their videos. How can anyone follow this on YouTube? Yes, you know what's going on in your cities, but this?

 

[AD1730]

Civ 7 is just not up to the standards for this glorious franchise. I really tried to like it after over 4,000 hrs in Civ 6. But I just can't. It just looks... unplayable. Even the simple stuff, like map readability. I have a 32" 4K monitor and I can't make sense of what's going on. Seriously, how many minutes do you need to understand the map below? There's no way this game is suitable for huge, +12 players maps with each player having +10 cities. In Civ 6 in 10 seconds I can get a very good idea what's going on in another player's civ. In Civ 7, can anyone tell me what districts/buildings are in Paris? Or read the tiny yield numbers? There's no wonder streamers cannot gain traction for their videos. How can anyone follow this on YouTube? Yes, you know what's going on in your cities, but this?


View attachment 732877

It's so frustrating that they made the map tiles so beautiful, but then the urban sprawl just covers it up. The rural improvements don't look great either in my view.

 

[CliffCo]

It's so frustrating that they made the map tiles so beautiful, but then the urban sprawl just covers it up. The rural improvements don't look great either in my view.

The urban tiles would look a lot better if they didn't appear as mostly different shades on grey. I agree on the rural tiles, the forrests and grassland especially looked much better in 6.

 

[Sagax]

I agree on the rural tiles, the forrests and grassland especially looked much better in 6.

Did they?

In my experience, they didn’t bother me… until I discovered the denser vegetation mod + Civ 5 environment mod, and I’ve never looked back since.

 

[CliffCo]

Did they?

In my experience, they didn’t bother me… until I discovered the denser vegetation mod + Civ 5 environment mod, and I’ve never looked back since.

I used that mod too but even without it the forrests looked so much better than what they call vegetation in Civ7, also the grass was greener and we had rolling hills instead of piles of rocks as rough terrain, marshland and swamps were nice too, even when not using mods. On the plus side the mountains look a lot better in 7, and we have navigable rivers.

 

[sixty4half]

Yeah, I miss hills

 

[stealth_nsk]

That's just simply not correct. That is coming from someone who has implemented cross-platform modding platforms and tools in games. I suggest you look up platforms such as Modio and their API/tools.

Yeah, I'm familiar with this, it's totally possible to create cross-platform mod wrapper. But Civ5 offered capabilities to add native code to the game through opening DLL and native code can't be made cross-platform. Moreover, as far as I'm aware, consoles prohibit using native code mods as any native code needs to be reviewed by the company which owns the console. That's the reason why we have minor Civ patches, which break cross-platform compatibility, BTW - if they change any functional parts, each such patch requires review.