Playing with revealed hidden values?

[gavenkoa]

It is surprising to find out about WFYABTA & delays/decays.

There are lots of hidden parameters. Is it cheating for single player to see them?

Some events, like MEMORY_GIVE_HELP can be checked from public data but requires time consuming routing checks each turn/leader.

I'm thinking about additions to BUG mode for more stats on screen.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

can be checked from public data but requires time consuming routing checks each turn/leader.

This is the whole point of BUG, don't present any new information but take the drudgery out of compiling it. It's up to individuals how they view it.

 

[Nick723]

I do somewhat agree - I think there is a line ‘somewhere’ between what is good to know vs what constitutes an advantage.

My usual tests are:
- can I already get the information elsewhere?
- is it reasonable that if I played the game for a long time I’d work this out by myself?

For example, I am happy knowing when people are plotting. Where I get a bit more uncomfortable is specific information that is only really accessible by code diving. The civ illustrated ‘Know Your Enemy’ guide is an example of such a resource. Great to know and certainly helpful to progress up the difficulty levels, but perhaps takes some of the fun out of the game? Eg. can Peter plot at pleased? I don’t know for certain and don’t really want to know!

The other problem with this approach is that it’s hard to ‘unlearn things’. For example, on reading about the barbarian pathing issues (where if you block the only clear route to your borders they won’t come for you) it’s hard to forget that! Of course, I could choose not to exploit it, but then that also seems a bit pointless too!

Recognise that others will have different views, particularly if you’re seeking to beat Deity regularly.

 

[Pangaea]

Fair points. One of the pieces of knowledge that drastically changes the gameplay is the 'stuff' about barbs spawning. On purpose I don't write more than that, but those who know can't unlearn it. It will quickly become second nature.

BUG is great, though. It doesn't add any information that isn't already there, but it makes it easier to find out, it takes away some of the nuisances and unnecessary clicks.

 

[6K Man]

I'm on record in numerous threads here saying that there's no such thing as "cheating" in a SP game. Play the kind of game you enjoy. Different story if you are playing against others, whether in a comparison/HoF format or in MP. In that case, doing things that fall outside the bounds of the standard rules, or agreed-upon variations to the rules, is cheating. IMO of course.

In any event, it becomes really hard to draw the line on hidden parameters. Code diving to get the peaceweights and other predilections for each AI leader feels like an exploit, but a player could get (most of) the same information with a good memory and several thousand games under his or her belt. Same effect, but one of them feels more exploit-y than the other.

 

[Jellybug]

My one gripe with BUG is going to diplo screen and finding out that Pacal is worst enemies with Montezuma when I haven't met Montezuma yet

 

[gavenkoa]

- is it reasonable that if I played the game for a long time I’d work this out by myself?

There is a thing I learned from the forum that you can delay tech choice first 5T without losing progress. It might help you to choose appropriate tech when you scout more around.

There is no way for me to learn it except by accidentally discovering.

WFYABTA is also tough thing to "master". AI decision for stopping trade looked random to me. This forum full of advice not to trade Archery )) But the reason why is deep in the XML game files.

Imaging isolated player - AI doesn't trade, that means you made some mistakes. Should you start game again? Is it permanent? Even if you discover that each leader has own threshold next step you need to discover "decay" counters )) how many games should you complete to infer 1/30 probability of that counter?

Another a super confusing thing - city gifting. Who knows exact effect of relation bonuses after gifting? How long should you wait for other AIs grow angry (border tension mechanic?) against gifted civ?

I like to have full game rules on the table. Otherwise even advice read here is mystical, lacking reason behind. To make intelligent actions you need to know effects of actions... Like in chess ))

 

[elitetroops]

Where I get a bit more uncomfortable is specific information that is only really accessible by code diving. The civ illustrated ‘Know Your Enemy’ guide is an example of such a resource. Great to know and certainly helpful to progress up the difficulty levels, but perhaps takes some of the fun out of the game?

I agree this info isn't needed in the base game or even BUG mod. It does go a bit over the line of providing information that is not accessible in game, even if it is easily accessible from your file system. One could make a case for including it in the leader section of Civilopedia in BUFFY. Afaik that mod is mainly used for competitive HoF and GOTM play. Most players competing in those would be actively using 'Know Your Enemy' anyway.

 

[Nick723]

Fair points. One of the pieces of knowledge that drastically changes the gameplay is the 'stuff' about barbs spawning. On purpose I don't write more than that, but those who know can't unlearn it. It will quickly become second nature.

BUG is great, though. It doesn't add any information that isn't already there, but it makes it easier to find out, it takes away some of the nuisances and unnecessary clicks.

I totally agree with this, this is transformational to your chances of beating immortal (and I assume even more important for deity). Not sure how you ever find that out by yourself.

There is a thing I learned from the forum that you can delay tech choice first 5T without losing progress. It might help you to choose appropriate tech when you scout more around.

There is no way for me to learn it except by accidentally discovering.

WFYABTA is also tough thing to "master". AI decision for stopping trade looked random to me. This forum full of advice not to trade Archery )) But the reason why is deep in the XML game files.

Imaging isolated player - AI doesn't trade, that means you made some mistakes. Should you start game again? Is it permanent? Even if you discover that each leader has own threshold next step you need to discover "decay" counters )) how many games should you complete to infer 1/30 probability of that counter?

Another a super confusing thing - city gifting. Who knows exact effect of relation bonuses after gifting? How long should you wait for other AIs grow angry (border tension mechanic?) against gifted civ?

I like to have full game rules on the table. Otherwise even advice read here is mystical, lacking reason behind. To make intelligent actions you need to know effects of actions... Like in chess ))

I agree to some extent, but I also think think that there’s a lot you really don’t need to know to do well (at least to beat immortal comfortably - deity is perhaps another matter). I’d probably bucket everything you’ve said here into that? I certainly don’t need to know individual leaders WFYABTA thresholds, and to be honest I rarely find that it affects my games significantly. Similarly the 5 turn thing has very minor impact, and gifting cities is something you really don’t need to do.

Where I do sympathise is a need for some decoding of messages you get on the trade screen. I’m not sure eg. there’s anywhere in the game that says:
- WFYBTA means you’ve traded too much
- WHEOOHRN means they are plotting

Without that basic info you’re going to be struggling

 

[gavenkoa]

this is transformational to your chances of beating immortal

It makes Raging Barbs manageable on Immortal.

I use BULL or BUG coloring Alt-X to fight with Barb span, it simplifies area coverage determination:

 

[sampsa]

Nice fogbusting, but not going to help you much if your play is otherwise kingyounk-tier. Amount of roads, amount of forest left, unimproved (farm/cottage) banana+dye, pace of expansion...

 

[Fippy]

Blocking barbs path to Cap isn't an exploit imo, i find this mechanic makes sense.
I had many interesting games where i was pondering when i should expand beyond the safety point.

 

[Anysense]

I totally agree with this, this is transformational to your chances of beating immortal (and I assume even more important for deity). Not sure how you ever find that out by yourself.

This is perfectly normal - a lot of discoveries are done by accident, and that includes science. And this is the whole point of the forum to share your experience and learn from other people. Although stuff like whether Peter can plot at pleased can be derived from the game experience there can be a lot of complications. For example, your vassals affect relationships and land target neighbours can alter thresholds, making it rather difficult to understand AI's behavior. Indeed it took many years for this comunity - which includes really good researchers - to find this stuff out. Personally, I'd feel it is a horrible waste not to use this knowledge.