You could always get a mod with Afrikaners. IMHO we should remove a few European/Middle eastern nations, and add a few from Ameica, Africa, and SE Asia/Oceania (Add Hebrews too!) Why not add the Confederacy? They influenced warfare too (Guerilla attacks, trench warfare, etc.)
Please add the Afrikaners as a Civilization!
- Thread starter Abrie JF Kilian
- Start date
Lockesdonkey
Liberal Jihadist
I also agree that we need more African civs. I am an Egyptian by ancestry (rah, rah Egypt!) and an American citizen by birth, but my mother grew up in Zambia. I therefore propose at there should be an African cultural group with the following civs
by the way govs are assuming that they do not change from civ3)
Zulu (obviously)
Remains the same as in civ3.
Mali
You could run this one or Songhay; it doesn't matter except for leader name. I can't name any Songhay leaders off the top of my head, so I'll use Mali
Mali:
Commercial and Religious
King Mansa Musa
Agression: low
Preferred Gov.: Monarchy (No, duh)
Sunned gov.: This one's tough at first, but then merchants don't exactly like Marx. So the shunned should be Communism
Ethiopia (Abyssinia)
This one was suggested earlier, but I'll add some stuff:
Militaristic and Commercial (please note: most african civs concentrated on trade, so most will have commercial)
Negus Ezama (the one who converted to Christianity and then kicked Nubia's ass)
Agression: high (but not very high)
Preferred gov: Monarchy (again, duh)
Shunned gov: Communism (again, but makes sense considering trade emphasis)
Hausa
I dont know this one that well, but they were the big traders in Central Africa.
Industrious and Commercial
Find your own damn leader
Agression: low
Preferred gov: was collection of city-states, so Feudalism or Republic
Shunned gov.: ummm... see above
by the way govs are assuming that they do not change from civ3)Zulu (obviously)
Remains the same as in civ3.
Mali
You could run this one or Songhay; it doesn't matter except for leader name. I can't name any Songhay leaders off the top of my head, so I'll use Mali
Mali:
Commercial and Religious
King Mansa Musa
Agression: low
Preferred Gov.: Monarchy (No, duh)
Sunned gov.: This one's tough at first, but then merchants don't exactly like Marx. So the shunned should be Communism
Ethiopia (Abyssinia)
This one was suggested earlier, but I'll add some stuff:
Militaristic and Commercial (please note: most african civs concentrated on trade, so most will have commercial)
Negus Ezama (the one who converted to Christianity and then kicked Nubia's ass)
Agression: high (but not very high)
Preferred gov: Monarchy (again, duh)
Shunned gov: Communism (again, but makes sense considering trade emphasis)
Hausa
I dont know this one that well, but they were the big traders in Central Africa.
Industrious and Commercial
Find your own damn leader
Agression: low
Preferred gov: was collection of city-states, so Feudalism or Republic
Shunned gov.: ummm... see above
Abrie JF Kilian
Chieftain
Afrikaners
Militaristic Industrious
Paul Kruger(m) or Johanna Brandt(f)
Aggression: Medium
Preferred Gov.: Republic
Sunned gov.: Monarchy, as the fight for independence was against Britain and a certain affinity for the House of Orania for not supporting the Afrikaners.
Unique unit: Ruiter (Upgraded cavalry) or Rooi Valk (Attack Helicopter) or G6-Artillery (Upgraded Artillery).
With the Afrikaners and the Zulus in Civilization 4, would bring balance to Southern Africa and Africa in general.
Militaristic Industrious
Paul Kruger(m) or Johanna Brandt(f)
Aggression: Medium
Preferred Gov.: Republic
Sunned gov.: Monarchy, as the fight for independence was against Britain and a certain affinity for the House of Orania for not supporting the Afrikaners.
Unique unit: Ruiter (Upgraded cavalry) or Rooi Valk (Attack Helicopter) or G6-Artillery (Upgraded Artillery).
With the Afrikaners and the Zulus in Civilization 4, would bring balance to Southern Africa and Africa in general.
Abrie JF Kilian
Chieftain
Afrikaners
Afrikaners are white South Africans predominantly of Calvinist Dutch, German, French Huguenot and Belgian descent who speak Afrikaans. Some settlers from other parts of Europe (e.g. Scandinavia and Britain) also joined the ranks of the Afrikaners. Non-Europeans (including Malay, Indian, Khoi and Bantu) make up around 5-7% of Afrikaner origins.
Afrikaners are descended mostly from white Calvinist settlers and refugees who occupied the Cape of Good Hope during the period of administration (1652-1795) by the Dutch East India Company (Vereenigde Oostindische Compagnie or VOC) and the subsequent period of British rule.
The term Afrikaner encompasses disparate communities of white Afrikaans speakers. Originally it distinguished those Dutch speakers who saw themselves as local, i.e. "African", from those who still primarily identified with Europe; it was later used to distinguish between Afrikaans speakers and English speakers among the white population. Its earliest use dates from 1707 but was not widely used until after the Anglo-Boer War of the early 20th century. Prior to then, the various white Afrikaans speaking communities were known under different names. A significant amount were known as Boers (farmers). The semi-nomadic/migrating farmers of the eastern frontier were known as Trekboers. Those who lived in the western Cape & did not trek eastward were known as the Cape Dutch. The isolated pioneers from the eastern cape frontier who trekked / migrated into the interior en masse in a series of migrations later known as the Great Trek were known as Voortrekkers. Though a small number of Voortrekkers came from the western Cape as well.
In the 1830s and 1840s an estimated 12,000 Voortrekkers penetrated the future Natal, Orange Free State and Transvaal provinces to put themselves beyond the reach of British authority, in order to escape relentless border wars, British colonialism and its Anglicization polices, as well as to ease pressure on an overcrowding frontier where land was becoming scarce. While some historians claim that these series of migrations, later known as the Great Trek, was caused because the Boers did not agree with the British restrictions on slavery, most Trekboers did not own slaves, unlike the Cape Dutch; their more affluent cousins in the western Cape who did not trek eastward and migrate or participate in the Great Trek. The vast majority of Voortrekkers were Trekboers from the eastern Cape who engaged in pastoralism. Nevertheless, the British promulgation of Ordinance 50 in 1828, which guaranteed equal rights before the law to all "free persons of color", was indeed a factor in Boer discontent, as is well documented by numerous contemporary sources; the various republics founded by the Voortrekkers while prohibiting slavery itself would all enshrine inequality by race into their constitutions.
The Great Trek was mainly the result of the "bursting of the dam" of pent up population migration and population pressures, as Trekboer migrations eastward had come to a virtual stop for at least three decades (though some Trekboers did migrate beyond the Orange River prior to the Great Trek). During the Great Trek they fought with the Zulus (after Voortrekker leaders Piet Retief and Gerhard Maritz, along with almost half of their followers, were killed by Dingaan and his warriors after initially signing a land treaty with them), who at the time occupied the areas the Boers were trekking into.
The Boers established independent states in what is now South Africa, Natal / Transvaal (the South African Republic) and the Orange Free State. The English wish to extend their colonial empire to the Boer areas led to the two Boer Wars of 1880-1881 and 1899-1902, which ended with the inclusion of the Boer areas in the British colonies. Following the British annexation of the Boer republics, the creation of the Union of South Africa (1910) went some way towards blurring the division between British settler and Afrikaner. The black majority, however, was excluded from equal participation in the affairs of the State / country until 1994 owing to the British colonial policies then later Afrikaner political leadership's policy of apartheid (the Afrikaans word for "aparthood" or "separation"), particularly under the National Party from 1948.
In recent years there has been encouragement from some Afrikaners to encourage the mixed race "coloured" population of South Africa, most of whom speak Afrikaans as their first language, to consider themselves Afrikaners. This has seen some success despite the history of exclusion under Apartheid.
Support the Inclusion of the Afrikaners.
Air you views on this extraordinary and young civilization that made a significant contribution towards modern war fare.
Afrikaners are white South Africans predominantly of Calvinist Dutch, German, French Huguenot and Belgian descent who speak Afrikaans. Some settlers from other parts of Europe (e.g. Scandinavia and Britain) also joined the ranks of the Afrikaners. Non-Europeans (including Malay, Indian, Khoi and Bantu) make up around 5-7% of Afrikaner origins.
Afrikaners are descended mostly from white Calvinist settlers and refugees who occupied the Cape of Good Hope during the period of administration (1652-1795) by the Dutch East India Company (Vereenigde Oostindische Compagnie or VOC) and the subsequent period of British rule.
The term Afrikaner encompasses disparate communities of white Afrikaans speakers. Originally it distinguished those Dutch speakers who saw themselves as local, i.e. "African", from those who still primarily identified with Europe; it was later used to distinguish between Afrikaans speakers and English speakers among the white population. Its earliest use dates from 1707 but was not widely used until after the Anglo-Boer War of the early 20th century. Prior to then, the various white Afrikaans speaking communities were known under different names. A significant amount were known as Boers (farmers). The semi-nomadic/migrating farmers of the eastern frontier were known as Trekboers. Those who lived in the western Cape & did not trek eastward were known as the Cape Dutch. The isolated pioneers from the eastern cape frontier who trekked / migrated into the interior en masse in a series of migrations later known as the Great Trek were known as Voortrekkers. Though a small number of Voortrekkers came from the western Cape as well.
In the 1830s and 1840s an estimated 12,000 Voortrekkers penetrated the future Natal, Orange Free State and Transvaal provinces to put themselves beyond the reach of British authority, in order to escape relentless border wars, British colonialism and its Anglicization polices, as well as to ease pressure on an overcrowding frontier where land was becoming scarce. While some historians claim that these series of migrations, later known as the Great Trek, was caused because the Boers did not agree with the British restrictions on slavery, most Trekboers did not own slaves, unlike the Cape Dutch; their more affluent cousins in the western Cape who did not trek eastward and migrate or participate in the Great Trek. The vast majority of Voortrekkers were Trekboers from the eastern Cape who engaged in pastoralism. Nevertheless, the British promulgation of Ordinance 50 in 1828, which guaranteed equal rights before the law to all "free persons of color", was indeed a factor in Boer discontent, as is well documented by numerous contemporary sources; the various republics founded by the Voortrekkers while prohibiting slavery itself would all enshrine inequality by race into their constitutions.
The Great Trek was mainly the result of the "bursting of the dam" of pent up population migration and population pressures, as Trekboer migrations eastward had come to a virtual stop for at least three decades (though some Trekboers did migrate beyond the Orange River prior to the Great Trek). During the Great Trek they fought with the Zulus (after Voortrekker leaders Piet Retief and Gerhard Maritz, along with almost half of their followers, were killed by Dingaan and his warriors after initially signing a land treaty with them), who at the time occupied the areas the Boers were trekking into.
The Boers established independent states in what is now South Africa, Natal / Transvaal (the South African Republic) and the Orange Free State. The English wish to extend their colonial empire to the Boer areas led to the two Boer Wars of 1880-1881 and 1899-1902, which ended with the inclusion of the Boer areas in the British colonies. Following the British annexation of the Boer republics, the creation of the Union of South Africa (1910) went some way towards blurring the division between British settler and Afrikaner. The black majority, however, was excluded from equal participation in the affairs of the State / country until 1994 owing to the British colonial policies then later Afrikaner political leadership's policy of apartheid (the Afrikaans word for "aparthood" or "separation"), particularly under the National Party from 1948.
In recent years there has been encouragement from some Afrikaners to encourage the mixed race "coloured" population of South Africa, most of whom speak Afrikaans as their first language, to consider themselves Afrikaners. This has seen some success despite the history of exclusion under Apartheid.
Support the Inclusion of the Afrikaners.
Air you views on this extraordinary and young civilization that made a significant contribution towards modern war fare.
Abrie JF Kilian
Chieftain
rbis4rbb
Greetings.
Still the question is: What defines a civilization to be recognized by the Civilization genre? Rbis4rbb, I dont know if you read the messages under this title, but I will advise you to do yourselves a favor and read it.
Greetings.
Still the question is: What defines a civilization to be recognized by the Civilization genre? Rbis4rbb, I dont know if you read the messages under this title, but I will advise you to do yourselves a favor and read it.
Abrie JF Kilian
Chieftain
Greetings Mr. Meyer
As the debate with regards to Civ4 is heating up and everyone is excited, I just want to relive my request.
After reading Soren Johnson How to Maintain a Successful Franchise, I concur and add that the addition of the Afrikaners will add to an increase in game sales in South Africa which will, off coarse have an increase of exports to Africa.
The name Sid Meyer has already become a house hold name in the gamers family. Adding the Afrikaners could even have you running for President, thats now if you apply for South African citizenship. (South Africa is worth visiting)
I also requested a review on the Zulu town names to have it authentic and true.
I really hope that others will support my request and that you will take it inconsideration.
As the debate with regards to Civ4 is heating up and everyone is excited, I just want to relive my request.
After reading Soren Johnson How to Maintain a Successful Franchise, I concur and add that the addition of the Afrikaners will add to an increase in game sales in South Africa which will, off coarse have an increase of exports to Africa.
The name Sid Meyer has already become a house hold name in the gamers family. Adding the Afrikaners could even have you running for President, thats now if you apply for South African citizenship. (South Africa is worth visiting)
I also requested a review on the Zulu town names to have it authentic and true.
I really hope that others will support my request and that you will take it inconsideration.
It wasn't the Spanish technology and military that defeated the Native Americans, it was the disease, no? The impression I get is that they could have likely fought the Europeans back if they didn't succumb to the diseases that they carried. But I didn't live back then, so I dunno 
I would rather see Polynesia, Mali, and Ethiopia in before the Afrikaners I don't really follow your claim about how they "ended gentleman warfare" and whatnot - I can think of plenty of instances before 1900 when warfare wasn't very gentlemanly. If that's a word 
I would rather see Polynesia, Mali, and Ethiopia in before the Afrikaners
I don't really follow your claim about how they "ended gentleman warfare" and whatnot - I can think of plenty of instances before 1900 when warfare wasn't very gentlemanly. If that's a word 
sealman
Hater of Babylonians
I also think that there are other more deserving civilizations before the Afrikaners but you got to admire Abrie for fighting so hard to get his civ in there.
Abrie - Good luck on your Don Quixiote like quest.
Abrie - Good luck on your Don Quixiote like quest.
Lockesdonkey
Liberal Jihadist
UM, ABRIE, ARE YOU SURE THAT THE GUY WHO CALLS HIMSELF SID ISN'T REFERRING TO SID LEVEL???
I mean, are you sure you're talking to Sid Meier himself?
I mean, are you sure you're talking to Sid Meier himself?
Grand Cadfael
Freedom fighter
If they did put an Afrikaners civ I think it should be militaristic and scientific.for obvious reasons
Abrie JF Kilian said:
You are apparently the recipient of some tainted history. It was the South Africans that were defeated in Angola. The definitive moment, of course, was in 1988 when the South African advance on Cuito Cuanavale was halted by the alliance of Angola, Cuba, SWAPO, and the MK. The South African air force with its Mirages waas defeated in the air by the Mig23. On the ground, the South Africans were forced to retreat into Namibia. After the communist alliance seized Ruacana (and owned part of Namibia) the South Africans were forced to sign a withdrawal aggrement.
The wars against the 'communists' had never gone brilliantly for SA. Remember, SA invaded Angola at least 3 times, and was forced out each time. Right after Angolan independence SA marched to within a few score miles of Luanda, but was beaten all the way back to the border.
This is why SA generals were saying things in the papers like "God will see us through, somehow.' ...not exactly words of confidence
sealman
Hater of Babylonians
Carver said:
Well, yes. But then again... almost everyone is an off shoot of someone else and should not be used ass the main argument against inclusion. Look at America and England for example.
Chazbagel
Prince
Why add african civs when you can American Civs. They should make America two seperate culture groups... north and south america. They should also add the Navajo and the CHEROKEE !! But he does have a point with the Afrikaners. If they add any other modern civs.. they should definatly add them. Or we could go back to the Civil war idea. and the Afrikaners be a breakoff of the dutch civilization.
Chazbagel
Prince
[/QUOTE]Well, yes. But then again... almost everyone is an off shoot of someone else and should not be used ass the main argument against inclusion. Look at America and England for example.
lol you said ass.
Admiral8Q
Prince
Another topic on African Civs? Cheers! Here's a Civ I think is important to add
I suggest this because I've actually lived there before
Dahomey/Benin
Leader: Kérékou?
Characteristics: Scientific & Commercial
(In the 1800s the French sashayed in and gained control of the coast, making the kingdom of Dahomey part of French West Africa. Named the 'Latin Quarter of West Africa', Dahomey became famous over the next century for its educated elite, employed as regional advisors. This education process backfired on the French; the locals became vocal and began agitating for equality. They even published a newspaper critical of the French.)
Special Unit: Warrior Women (Amazons)
Although warfare is typically conducted by men, in various places and at various times women have fought bravely and well, and in the West African kingdom of Dahomey during the 19th century, they formed the elite corps of a successful army. Many European visitors to Dahomey commented favorably on their military bearing, finding them more impressive in discipline and maneuver than male Dahomean soldiers.The Warrior Women of Dahomey were refered to by the French as Amazons!
Aggression Level: *----
Favorite Government: Communism
After World War II the people of Dahomey modernised rapidly, forming trade unions and political parties. In 1960, and without much fuss, Dahomey attained independence from France. Due to their education, many Dahomeyans were running administrations throughout French Africa. Following independence, these officials were deported en masse, forming an unstable presence at home. In 1963 this boiled over into a successful military coup. For the next nine years Benin became the Bolivia of Africa. There were five coups, nine changes in government and five different constitutions. With typical wry humour, the locals refer to this time as le folklore. Despite all of this upheaval, the famous civil nature of the Fon people triumphed. No leader was ever killed, and when the army deposed General Soglo in 1967 they politely knocked on his door and told him, 'You're through'.
The pleasantries didn't last long. In 1972 Lt Col Mathieu Kérékou seized control, renamed the radio station 'the voice of the revolution' and fuelled anti-white sentiment. Marxism became the official ideology of the newly named Benin in 1974. Private industry continued to flourish.
Shunned Government: Despotism
Not sure on this one.
Culture Group: African?
City Production Emphasis: Science, Trade
A summary:
History - The African kingdom of Dahomey originated in Benin. By the 17th century, the kingdom, ruled by an oba, stretched beyond the borders of present-day Benin, covered a large part of West-Africa. The kingdom was prosperous and established slave trading relations with the Europeans (mostly Portuguese and Dutch) who first arrived in the late 15th century. By the 18th century, Dahomey started to fall apart, enabling the French to take over the area in 1892. In 1899, the land became part of the French West Africa colony, still as Dahomey. In 1958, it was granted autonomy as the Republic of Dahomey, and full independence followed in 1960. A turbulent period followed independence, and there were several coups and regime changes before control was seized by Mathieu Kérékou. He established a Marxist government, and the country was renamed to the People's Republic of Benin. By the late 1980s, Kérékou abandoned Marxism and decided to re-establish democracy. He was defeated in 1991 elections, but proved victorious again in the 1996 vote.
I suggest this because I've actually lived there before
Dahomey/Benin
Leader: Kérékou?
Characteristics: Scientific & Commercial
(In the 1800s the French sashayed in and gained control of the coast, making the kingdom of Dahomey part of French West Africa. Named the 'Latin Quarter of West Africa', Dahomey became famous over the next century for its educated elite, employed as regional advisors. This education process backfired on the French; the locals became vocal and began agitating for equality. They even published a newspaper critical of the French.)
Special Unit: Warrior Women (Amazons)
Although warfare is typically conducted by men, in various places and at various times women have fought bravely and well, and in the West African kingdom of Dahomey during the 19th century, they formed the elite corps of a successful army. Many European visitors to Dahomey commented favorably on their military bearing, finding them more impressive in discipline and maneuver than male Dahomean soldiers.The Warrior Women of Dahomey were refered to by the French as Amazons!
Aggression Level: *----
Favorite Government: Communism
After World War II the people of Dahomey modernised rapidly, forming trade unions and political parties. In 1960, and without much fuss, Dahomey attained independence from France. Due to their education, many Dahomeyans were running administrations throughout French Africa. Following independence, these officials were deported en masse, forming an unstable presence at home. In 1963 this boiled over into a successful military coup. For the next nine years Benin became the Bolivia of Africa. There were five coups, nine changes in government and five different constitutions. With typical wry humour, the locals refer to this time as le folklore. Despite all of this upheaval, the famous civil nature of the Fon people triumphed. No leader was ever killed, and when the army deposed General Soglo in 1967 they politely knocked on his door and told him, 'You're through'.
The pleasantries didn't last long. In 1972 Lt Col Mathieu Kérékou seized control, renamed the radio station 'the voice of the revolution' and fuelled anti-white sentiment. Marxism became the official ideology of the newly named Benin in 1974. Private industry continued to flourish.
Shunned Government: Despotism
Not sure on this one.
Culture Group: African?
City Production Emphasis: Science, Trade
A summary:
History - The African kingdom of Dahomey originated in Benin. By the 17th century, the kingdom, ruled by an oba, stretched beyond the borders of present-day Benin, covered a large part of West-Africa. The kingdom was prosperous and established slave trading relations with the Europeans (mostly Portuguese and Dutch) who first arrived in the late 15th century. By the 18th century, Dahomey started to fall apart, enabling the French to take over the area in 1892. In 1899, the land became part of the French West Africa colony, still as Dahomey. In 1958, it was granted autonomy as the Republic of Dahomey, and full independence followed in 1960. A turbulent period followed independence, and there were several coups and regime changes before control was seized by Mathieu Kérékou. He established a Marxist government, and the country was renamed to the People's Republic of Benin. By the late 1980s, Kérékou abandoned Marxism and decided to re-establish democracy. He was defeated in 1991 elections, but proved victorious again in the 1996 vote.
Tom_Bombadil
Chieftain
- Joined
- Aug 28, 2004
- Messages
- 47
Gentlemanly combat is reserved for close quarters, where you can't be unemotional unless you are a psycho.
Lockesdonkey
Liberal Jihadist
Admiral8Q said:Another topic on African Civs? Cheers! Here's a Civ I think is important to add
I suggest this because I've actually lived there before
Dahomey/Benin
Leader: Kérékou?
Characteristics: Scientific & Commercial
(In the 1800s the French sashayed in and gained control of the coast, making the kingdom of Dahomey part of French West Africa. Named the 'Latin Quarter of West Africa', Dahomey became famous over the next century for its educated elite, employed as regional advisors. This education process backfired on the French; the locals became vocal and began agitating for equality. They even published a newspaper critical of the French.)
Special Unit: Warrior Women (Amazons)
Although warfare is typically conducted by men, in various places and at various times women have fought bravely and well, and in the West African kingdom of Dahomey during the 19th century, they formed the elite corps of a successful army. Many European visitors to Dahomey commented favorably on their military bearing, finding them more impressive in discipline and maneuver than male Dahomean soldiers.The Warrior Women of Dahomey were refered to by the French as Amazons!
Aggression Level: *----
Favorite Government: Communism
After World War II the people of Dahomey modernised rapidly, forming trade unions and political parties. In 1960, and without much fuss, Dahomey attained independence from France. Due to their education, many Dahomeyans were running administrations throughout French Africa. Following independence, these officials were deported en masse, forming an unstable presence at home. In 1963 this boiled over into a successful military coup. For the next nine years Benin became the Bolivia of Africa. There were five coups, nine changes in government and five different constitutions. With typical wry humour, the locals refer to this time as le folklore. Despite all of this upheaval, the famous civil nature of the Fon people triumphed. No leader was ever killed, and when the army deposed General Soglo in 1967 they politely knocked on his door and told him, 'You're through'.
The pleasantries didn't last long. In 1972 Lt Col Mathieu Kérékou seized control, renamed the radio station 'the voice of the revolution' and fuelled anti-white sentiment. Marxism became the official ideology of the newly named Benin in 1974. Private industry continued to flourish.
Shunned Government: Despotism
Not sure on this one.
Culture Group: African?
City Production Emphasis: Science, Trade
A summary:
History - The African kingdom of Dahomey originated in Benin. By the 17th century, the kingdom, ruled by an oba, stretched beyond the borders of present-day Benin, covered a large part of West-Africa. The kingdom was prosperous and established slave trading relations with the Europeans (mostly Portuguese and Dutch) who first arrived in the late 15th century. By the 18th century, Dahomey started to fall apart, enabling the French to take over the area in 1892. In 1899, the land became part of the French West Africa colony, still as Dahomey. In 1958, it was granted autonomy as the Republic of Dahomey, and full independence followed in 1960. A turbulent period followed independence, and there were several coups and regime changes before control was seized by Mathieu Kérékou. He established a Marxist government, and the country was renamed to the People's Republic of Benin. By the late 1980s, Kérékou abandoned Marxism and decided to re-establish democracy. He was defeated in 1991 elections, but proved victorious again in the 1996 vote.
I started a thread for African civs. It's further down.
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