Please help my Monarch early game!

[Rast]

My problem is simple - I win every Monarch game I play now that lasts into the Classical era, only about half don't, I get overrun by barbs. So I come and ask better players than I for advice.

I typically play Monarch/Continents/Marathon

Here's my usual tech build:

- Beeline to BW
- Continue to IW if there's no copper nearby
- Beeline to Pottery
- Beeline to Alphabet
- Code of Laws if I have trading partners, backfill early stuff if I don't

And my normal unit build

- Warrior (Scout)
- Warrior until capital grows to 2 pop, then stop and build a worker
- Chop the warrior (Scout)

At this point if I'm lucky and have Copper in my initial fat cross...

- Hook up the copper while building more warriors (Garrison/scout), usually get 2 or 3
- Chop an axe (garrison)
- Chop another axe (Secure 2nd city site)
- Chop a settler

If I don't...

- Chop another warrior (garrison). Send a scouting warrrior to secure 2nd settlement site
- Chop a settler
- Chop a worker
- Hook up the iron
- Start chopping axes

and I'm usually OK if I live that long.

My main problem is that if I don't have copper in my initial fat cross the barbs usually start showing up with archers before I can get my copper hooked up. If I have to go to IW right away it's a toss up as to whether I'll have any axes by the time the barbs start coming in with them. I try to keep my land as secured as best I can (fortify on a forest hill, only fight on terrian advantages to my units, etc) but until I can start chopping axes that one archer that takes out a warrior is usually all it takes.

This is the main reason I like the Incans so much on Monarch, the Quechas are strong against archers and get free Combat I to boot - I rarely lose with the Incans but I don't want to be dependant on only being able to play one civ.

Any advice? Thanks!

 

[cabert]

if you want axes, you don't need that much warriors (they do a pretty poor garrison).

You have a pretty typical start for monarch level. Don't forget the fogbusting+worker robbery opportunities.

One thing you really need at monarch level is to tech in an efficient way = open the best workers' tasks for your map.
For instance, if you have cow/sheeps, it may be better to delay BW while teching for AH. Play your traits and your starting techs.
If you don't have mining as a starting tech, going straight for BW is not optimal (unless you have gold/silver/gems in the fat cross).

 

[slowcar]

chariots are a wunderful weapon against barbarians. they beat archers on the open field and wipe axes.
if you have pigs/sheeps nearby AH may be worth a shot.
you still need axes to go after your neighbour though

better to get archery if you have no fast access to horses or copper.
and as cabert said, fogbusting helps a lot against barbs.

 

[shivute]

You have the problem that I always have and the BW and ignore archery gang don't - I often don't get copper anywhere near my starting city!
I play emperor now and I always research archery before BW. Not a hard decision unless you want to gamble on copper and I don't.
Get archery ASAP (perhaps only after fishing if suitable resource to work) and build 2. 2 archers in your cities 95% of the time wont be defeated.

 

[Galileo44]

It seems like settler is like your 8-9th build! After the first 2 warriors and the worker(if he has anthing to do) build a settler. If you can grab 2-3 good city spots, it is much easier to survive. If you think about it, a capital with 9 hammers gets a lot less production than a civ with 3 cities with 4 production. the borders will beat back some barbs, grab more land for chopping, and allow you more units. This should speed you along. Just don't overexpand before CoL and Currency.

 

[Naismith]

You have the problem that I always have and the BW and ignore archery gang don't - I often don't get copper anywhere near my starting city!
I play emperor now and I always research archery before BW. Not a hard decision unless you want to gamble on copper and I don't.
Get archery ASAP (perhaps only after fishing if suitable resource to work) and build 2. 2 archers in your cities 95% of the time wont be defeated.

I don't know if I'm unlucky or what, but it seems like I don't get copper about 50% of the time on Monarch. I have probably only played about 6 Monarch games, I currently favor going for chariots (AH) if there isn't any copper.

 

[InvisibleStalke]

I agree with going for chariots. They are nice and cheap, handle barbarians and can be handy as medics and pillagers late into the game.

Generally I would either go for AH or BW early - no later than my second tech. Which will depend on what I think is more likely given the terrain and my starting techs. If I miss out I will usually go for the other. And if I miss both horses and bronze, then I hurry towards archery. And build a few extra warriors.

The last game this happened to me, I was playing a protective civ - Korea. At the time I didn't value protective too highly, but I appreciated it much more once my elite archers turned the tide against the barbarian axemen.

The only thing I don't like about archery is the tech carries no other benefits and if you don't have an immediate reason to chase hunting due to a resource, its a side trip that I'd like to avoid. However I'd rather go for archery as a sure thing than risk losing out on copper, horses and iron. Usually I can get the 4-6 techs to get through BW, AH and archery before the barbarians become too serious a problem.

But each time I fail to get the resource I have to plan on extra warriors and fogbusters. Its not a big deal to divert to AH because its such a useful tech anyway - it speeds up writing and there are almost always nearby resources that you can claim.

 

[Meatbuster]

OP: We're the same, I can beat Monarch as soon as I survive the barbarians.

How about not going for BW early so that barb axemen don't appear until later?

 

[Mannu]

Or you could chop-rush the Great Wall. If you have stone in your city radius or are Industrious this is a good idea and can allow you to expand quickly and safely thereafter.

hmm... on second thought this might come too late for you, depending on what civ you are playing.

It would have to include these techs

Mining (unless you start with it)
Bronze Working
Masonry
Wheel (if stone is not on a river)

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

I'm having similar issues, trying to make the jump from Prince and as a bonus enabling the Raging Barbs.

Right now, it feels like there aren't a lot of tech choices - it's really easy to get hemmed in; a worker pinned in the city is awfully useless.

 

[Shillen]

I don't know why people are so afraid to research archery. Both it and hunting are really cheap techs. It doesn't set you back that much to research them. I end up researching archery more than half the time (especially with warlords) because I have terrible luck with resource spawns.

 

[pukii]

aah too bad i saw this post too late.

i already posted something that would fit into that under another topic:

-> How do YOU fight the expansion urge:

nobody will look at that link right?

-_-° awww

 

[PMabey]

get archery.

 

[karr1255]

In case you play warlords the chariots are the absolute barb destroyer with 2 movement and +50%(100% even?) against axeman. Otherwise archery is really not that bad although IF you can skip it it's a profit.

Aside from barbs, just get used to falling behind and build better cities than the AI and war a little bit. Sometimes just pillaging all of Mansas cottages absolutely kills him.
Think outside the box, of course the higher the difficulty the less options you really have. But you see people here in SGs winning without cottages on emperor or cultural without warring on emperor, so everything is possible.

 

[cabert]

I'm a convicted "no archery" fan, but on higher levels you have to take into consideration that:
- the WFYBTA effect is based on number of techs, not value. So trading for 1 turn researcheable techs is a waste.
- you may have a hard time with barbs
- archery is needed for archer (really???, unbelievable )Long Bow, Cross Bow, horse archers. i can often live without archers, LB, Ha but crossbows are just to good to miss.

 

[dutchfire]

turn off barbs

 

[lilnev]

If you make a settler your third build (after warrior-worker or worker-warrior), you should be able to settle next to any copper/horse and hook it up in plenty of time. Barbs won't actually invade cultural borders until something like 2000 BC. If I don't find copper or horse within a reasonble distance (and I don't have Quechua), then I'll get Archery. It's a reasonble solution, just a bit inefficient. I almost never research Iron Working. It takes too long. I'll trade for it later.

Depending on the map structure, fog-busting may be a lot more efficient than city defense. Often 3-5 warriors can bust 90% or more of the land that's closer to me than to any rival. Sometimes I don't even leave a defender in a city, and count on the fog-busters (or a quick retreat, if necessary). It can save your improvements from pillaging, too.

peace,
lilnev

 

[lilnev]

My previous advice applies to normal barbs. But I did several test starts last night with raging barbs, and I think the strategy changes significantly with that setting. I was practicing starts for the upcoming GOTM -- Monarch, highlands, standard, normal, Roosevelt, raging barbs.
The barbs were a pretty big problem. The first I saw was 2520 (wandering into my view, not with WB), and the latest I saw my first barb was around 2300, in about 6 games. That doesn't seem unduly early. But:
1) There were a lot of them. In one game that I played to 600 BC, I killed 47, about 1/turn.
2) Archers appeared from the start -- there was no warrior-only honeymoon. Archers and warriors appeared in about equal numbers. I didn't see any axemen by 600 BC.
3) They beelined towards my cities from the start, rather than lurking outside cultural boundaries.
4) Fogbusting didn't work very well. Even with a radical build order (warrior-warrior-warrior-warrior-warrior-warrior-warrior-warrior-warrior-worker), I couldn't bust enough. Partly this may be a map effect: highland maps have little water, so the effective area is too high.

The third point was really the key problem. I found that I couldn't use my second city to hook up copper or horses. There just wasn't time, and I got overrun.

Conclusion: If you've turned raging bargs on, I think early Archery is necessary (unless copper of horse appears in the fat cross of the capital).

peace,
lilnev

 

[pukii]

yep totally my opinion - on monarch (raging) barbs are nasty