Policies: The time has come!

[Wodhann]

Yeah, what funak said. If anything, the problem is the exact opposite: you get too few social policies before getting to ideologies. Now whether this is a problem or not, is debatable. In vanilla, it's not a real problem because policies are so unbalanced you probably only want a few of them anyway. But if we make all of them desirable, then this may (or may not) be a slight issue.

 

[mystikx21]

@Wodhann Other than moving a settler bonus to honor, I'm not sure that's a significant shift then. The names can stay basically as that's just moving the drapes to a new window. That's fine generally, but it doesn't change either policy tree structurally.

I don't follow that it is essential to do 2 per era (though that has a nice symmetry, symmetry isn't the same as balance) or that aesthetics needs to be moved. The basis for moving piety to classical is that it is too weak/narrow a role to leave it in the ancient competing against the other 3 starters. Aesthetics could basically be where ever from there. It could be in the classical era with piety as far as I'm concerned as long as the tree's effects are balanced. There's no well-defined reason to move it backward. I don't necessarily mind moving it backward, but I don't buy the argument that we have to move it instead of something else.

It is fairly trivial to change the culture cost for policies to make the accumulation somewhat faster or slower as desired. I'd say 30-35 including an ideology for a late-game would be okay as a goal as that's about "4" trees and an ideology. If they come much faster without something funky (a leader cultural bonus say), that's too many. The balance point for vanilla/GK was to get 30+ for a culture win. So a slight increase should be fine.

 

[Gamewizard]

Ninakoru made a balance mod that slightly altered some of the vanilla policies. I suggest we start with his changes and then continue to add small changes as we see fit. His simple fixes of slightly nerfing tradition and rationalism and buffing honor and piety made the game much better IMO, and this method would be easier to understand for someone new to the mod.

 

[Stalker0]

I have no idea which game you have been playing, but in my latest game(where I went for an extremely cultureheavy tourismvictory) I didn't even have 3 trees finished off before I picked my ideology. I had full tradition, full Asthetics, Patronage opener and secularism. (And that was with me rushing everything that gives culture)

This is much more my experience as well. I never have too many policies in standard play.

 

[Stalker0]

Funak mentioned something that we should think about.

The concern was without the culture openers in the trees, policies may come about at a "glacial pace".

This is a fair concern. Right now by taking the culture openers out of the tradition tree, we have greatly affected the pace of policy generation in the beginning of the game.

I am using the Tradition tree as the game "baseline" right now. It is the tree most commonly taken, so its pacing is what players are used to. My current tradition tree would be obtained much slower than this "baseline".

I do think the pace of policies early game should be maintained, so we have a couple options:

1) Maintain culture generation in the opener of all three trees.
2) Adjust the culture formula to remove the assumption.

Thoughts?

 

[Stalker0]

A lot of people are calling for specialist happiness in tradition. The reason I am so hesitant is that I am still in the camp that believes specialists should not generate extra unhappy...so I personally don't want to "lock that mechanic in" by introducing ways to negate it in a policy.

Alright let me try another cut of the tradition tree.


Opener: +2 food in the capital. Capital Growth increased by 4% for each tradition policy taken. (my math was wrong before, there are only 6 policies not 7, so I adjusted the percentage slightly).
Aristocracy: +15% bonus to wonders, +1 happiness for National Wonders.
Legalism: +3 culture/tourism in the capital, GP Improvements generate +2 culture.
Oligarchy: Palace gains a free engineer specialist slot, Border Expansion increased.
Landed Elite: Palace gains +2 hammers, Tile Buying Costs reduced by 15%.
Monarchy: +1 Gold per 2 Pop in Capital, any city with a National Wonder gains +10% GP generation.
Finisher: Can buy Great Engineers with Faith. Capital gains +10% hammers, science, culture, faith, and gold each time it gains a new population. - This is the mechanic from CSD buildings.

 

[Wodhann]

@Wodhann Other than moving a settler bonus to honor, I'm not sure that's a significant shift then. The names can stay basically as that's just moving the drapes to a new window. That's fine generally, but it doesn't change either policy tree structurally.

Fine, rather than explaining it, let's try to flesh it out shall we.

Here's Conquest 0.1:

Conquest

Opener: Adopting Conquest gives a +33% combat bonus against Barbarians, and notifications will be provided when new Barbarian Encampments spawn in revealed territory. Gain for the empire from each barbarian unit killed.

Collectivism: Unhappiness caused by each city reduced by 1 . A free Settler appears outside the Capital.

Imperialism: Garrisons in occupied cities reduce unhappiness by 25%. Garrisoned puppeted cities gain +25% . Requires Collectivism.​

Discipline: Construct Barracks, Armories, and Military Academies 50% faster. Every one of these buildings produces 1 .

Military Caste: Newly founded cities automatically spawn a garrison of latest technological caliber. A ranged unit appears outside each of your cities. Requires Discipline.

Warrior Spirit: A free Heroic Epic is built in your capital. Starts a Golden Age. Requires Military Caste.​

Finisher: Each non-puppeted city in your empire increases the cost of policies by 25% less than normal. Allows the purchase of Great Generals with starting from the Industrial Era.​

(NUMBERS ARE OBVIOUSLY SUBJECT TO CHANGE)

 

[mystikx21]

I guess this also moves the policy reducer over plus the settlers? I wouldn't be impressed with this as a tree still. The finisher is good for peaceful purposes, but it now has limited combat capabilities (the unit upgrade reduction for instance was useful for both) and doesn't really do much for peacetime expansion until the finisher.

Most of the combat capability is a possibly large army size increase if taken later on. That could be achieved by increasing military unit production, or making existing units stronger. It does reward conquest, but does it make (early) conquest/combat more likely? Or more successful? It should have some effects there as well.

The barracks policy is weak. Better than just a faster barracks (and better than giving barracks for free in x cities). I don't see anything wrong here with a great general or GG rate bonus.

I really don't have much desire to get WS except to get the finisher. I would rather it do something combat related (spoils from combat/pillaging or happiness effect from great generals?). Neither of those effects are very good or interesting. You can build Hero Epic anyway and may or may not want it in your capital every game and golden ages are obtainable through other means just fine that I don't really care if a policy gives me one.

Imperialism is solid conceptually (maybe high on production figure, but the idea is interesting).

Military Caste seems like one of those picks that we'd end up timing to get a maximum of effect, sort of like the legalism effect in tradition (but with a less potent follower). It isn't that hard right now to construct a garrison to ship with or ahead of the settler that this would necessarily interest me. Free units overall though might.

 

[mystikx21]

A lot of people are calling for specialist happiness in tradition. The reason I am so hesitant is that I am still in the camp that believes specialists should not generate extra unhappy...so I personally don't want to "lock that mechanic in" by introducing ways to negate it in a policy.

Alright let me try another cut of the tradition tree.


Opener: +2 food in the capital. Capital Growth increased by 4% for each tradition policy taken. (my math was wrong before, there are only 6 policies not 7, so I adjusted the percentage slightly).
Aristocracy: +15% bonus to wonders, +1 happiness for National Wonders.
Legalism: +3 culture/tourism in the capital, GP Improvements generate +2 culture.
Oligarchy: Palace gains a free engineer specialist slot, Border Expansion increased.
Landed Elite: Palace gains +2 hammers, Tile Buying Costs reduced by 15%.
Monarchy: +1 Gold per 2 Pop in Capital, any city with a National Wonder gains +10% GP generation.
Finisher: Can buy Great Engineers with Faith. Capital gains +10% hammers, science, culture, faith, and gold each time it gains a new population. - This is the mechanic from CSD buildings.

This looks about right then if you're trying to avoid the specialist unhappiness. "A lot of people" was more "mystikx repeatedly", and gazebo in another thread. I don't have that much say over what it will be, but I'm still sold on trying it that way. And even if the specialists are reduced in unhappiness in some way by default as long as they aren't eliminated as a source (which I have no interest in doing, they are population and should count for something), they should still benefit from policy effects that provide happiness benefits or unhappiness reductions.

The one effect that looks weak is the landed elite +2 production. If you have a free engineer slot, you already have that. Finisher is fine here.

 

[Funak]

Alright let me try another cut of the tradition tree.

Guess I'll do this thing once again.

Opener: +2 food in the capital. Capital Growth increased by 4% for each tradition policy taken. (my math was wrong before, there are only 6 policies not 7, so I adjusted the percentage slightly).
You still haven't answered my question about having it as 2-3%(x5 for policies) food instead of growth.

Aristocracy: +15% bonus to wonders, +1 happiness for National Wonders.
A bonus to national wonders is fine but happiness is boring, you could have it at X% yield/NWonder instead of your choice instead, would be more fun imho

Legalism: +3 culture/tourism in the capital, GP Improvements generate +2 culture.
Fine

Oligarchy: Palace gains a free engineer specialist slot, Border Expansion increased.
No real synergy between those 2 bonuses, should be moved to style

Landed Elite: Palace gains +2 hammers, Tile Buying Costs reduced by 15%.
Boring, weak and no synergy. If anything you should switch the border expansion in oligarchy with the productionbonus here, but it would still be dull

Monarchy: +1 Gold per 2 Pop in Capital, any city with a National Wonder gains +10% GP generation.
Would that be a stacking bonus? So 2 NWs would give 20% Because that would be rather broken. If not it would Encourage moving NWs around just because, which isn't really the tradition style either

Finisher: Can buy Great Engineers with Faith. Capital gains +10% hammers, science, culture, faith, and gold each time it gains a new population. - This is the mechanic from CSD buildings.
Still rather weak and boring imho

 

[Funak]

This looks about right then if you're trying to avoid the specialist unhappiness. "A lot of people" was more "mystikx repeatedly", and gazebo in another thread. I don't have that much say over what it will be, but I'm still sold on trying it that way. And even if the specialists are reduced in unhappiness in some way by default as long as they aren't eliminated as a source (which I have no interest in doing, they are population and should count for something), they should still benefit from policy effects that provide happiness benefits or unhappiness reductions.

The only problem with percentual reduction of specialist unhappiness in tradition is that is with clash with the percentual specialist unhappiness in Freedom (and the other free specialist policies in Freedom that already have negative synergy with eachother)

Don't get me wrong I would still like it in tradition, but we would need to remake freedom again.

 

[mystikx21]

Most likely we will. Keep in mind though that freedom would be bonuses for specialists anywhere (not just the capital).

 

[Funak]

Fine, rather than explaining it, let's try to flesh it out shall we.

Here's Conquest 0.1...

Wow, I can't believe you actually have a less combatfocused tree than I had in mind, and I was thinking my ideas were too much off.

My Honor concept was having honor actually give you an advantage in warfare, stuff like stronger GGs, faster GGs, free promotons, extra experience.

Also faster cityrazing and lower resistance time in captured cities. I still don't really think puppet empries is a good idea so I would keep the puppetbonuses extremely limited.

Ideas for free promotions would be stuff like:
Free siege promotion (X% cityattack)
Extra healing in enemy territory.
March (Would be way too strong however, maybe a march that works if you move but not attack?)
Ships can heal outside friendly territory (Assuming any of you actually care about naval warfare, I know I would like to see it)
Extra healing from Pillaging
Extra strength from nearby friendly unit
Bonus flanking
Extra Strength (Boring and too good on defense)

 

[Funak]

Most likely we will. Keep in mind though that freedom would be bonuses for specialists anywhere (not just the capital).

Ofc. but if you go tradition into Freedom (which doesn't seem too unlikely) You're most likely going to have all your guilds in your capital (To make use of the tradtion bonus).

Also a funny thing about tradition just affecting the capital is that all these bonuses are going to make your other cities crazy unhappy (Which isn't really a problem but it is rather funny =D, captial jealousy)

 

[Wodhann]

I wouldn't be impressed with this as a tree still.

You kind of forced me to show what I meant, so I had to come up with something on the spot. The point was to show you what "conquest" would look like.

Let me stress this, just to make it clear to everyone: That was an example of "conquest", not how I want "honor" to be.

It's early in the process, so I'm open to suggestions. I like the Imperialism and Military Caste ideas though. The rest are disposable.

Military Caste seems like one of those picks that we'd end up timing to get a maximum of effect, sort of like the legalism effect in tradition (but with a less potent follower). It isn't that hard right now to construct a garrison to ship with or ahead of the settler that this would necessarily interest me. Free units overall though might.

The only reason why someone would time is if they want more or less ranged units. Because overall, you still get the same amount of units regardless (one for each city you have, and one for each you settle) - all it encourages is for you to have more cities. EDIT: Wait. I'm stupid. Of course there's a difference. But anyway... It adds strategical flavor I think.

By the way, of everything I did in the tree, the "settled cities come with an unit" is the idea I'm the proudest of (it manages to get both "liberty" and "honor" into the same policy), so I'm not giving it up that easily.

 

[Lord Tirian]

Opener: +2 food in the capital. Capital Growth increased by 4% for each tradition policy taken. (my math was wrong before, there are only 6 policies not 7, so I adjusted the percentage slightly).

I like it, that's a good opener. @Funak: Food percentage is too good, it benefits the late game more than the early game and encourages "dipping" into the opener late for any empire, openers shouldn't be that good (even 4%-8% food are amazing).

Aristocracy: +15% bonus to wonders, +1 happiness for National Wonders.

Fine, wonder bonus is a nice bonus people in general seem to like, the happiness gives it extra relevance.

Legalism: +3 culture/tourism in the capital, GP Improvements generate +2 culture.

Decent enough.

Oligarchy: Palace gains a free engineer specialist slot, Border Expansion increased.

Agreeing with Funak, make this Palace +2 hammers, remove the border effect

Landed Elite: Palace gains +2 hammers, Tile Buying Costs reduced by 15%.

Move border expansion here, remove hammer bonus. I'd be a bit bolder here and reduce the tile buying costs by 25%.

Monarchy: +1 Gold per 2 Pop in Capital, any city with a National Wonder gains +10% GP generation.

Yeah, this should reward building several national wonders in the capital, I'd say give it +5% GP generation per NW, capped at 15%.

Finisher: Can buy Great Engineers with Faith. Capital gains +10% hammers, science, culture, faith, and gold each time it gains a new population. - This is the mechanic from CSD buildings.

Still a bit bland, I actually liked the God-King pantheon bonus here, but... stronger, what about: +2 gold, +2 culture, +2 science, +2 hammer, +2 faith and +25% city strength.

Furthermore, I think something that gives internal trade routes to the capital +25% yield bonus would be very fitting in Tradition and could be a replacement for Oligarchy or Landed Elite above, since they feel slightly "meh".

 

[Funak]

@Funak: Food percentage is too good, it benefits the late game more than the early game and encourages "dipping" into the opener late for any empire, openers shouldn't be that good (even 4%-8% food are amazing).
No one said it needed to be the opener (and even with it being the opener you would still need to fill out the tree to get the full effect) could be the finisher for all I care. And yes it is extremely powerful but so are the floating gardes and temple of artemis, and they affect all cities. And please don't tell me that a policy can't be stronger than a wonder, because it it clearly not true.

Agreeing with Funak, make this Palace +2 hammers, remove the border effect
Move border expansion here, remove hammer bonus. I'd be a bit bolder here and reduce the tile buying costs by 25%.
Would be boring even with cheaper tiles, that's the main problem

Yeah, this should reward building several national wonders in the capital, I'd say give it +5% GP generation per NW, capped at 15%.
Might aswell just have a flat bonus in that case

Still a bit bland, I actually liked the God-King pantheon bonus here, but... stronger, what about: +2 gold, +2 culture, +2 science, +2 hammer, +2 faith and +25% city strength.
Still boring

Furthermore, I think something that gives internal trade routes to the capital +25% yield bonus would be very fitting in Tradition and could be a replacement for Oligarchy or Landed Elite above, since they feel slightly "meh".
Was playing with the thought of stronger internal traderoutes aswell

 

[Lord Tirian]

The only reason why someone would time is if they want more or less ranged units. Because overall, you still get the same amount of units regardless (one for each city you have, and one for each you settle) - all it encourages is for you to have more cities.

I don't like policies with one-time effects in general and using this policy to suddenly pop a defensive army seems cheap to me. I do like the idea of getting a free ranged unit with new cities, though - without the instant army. It still encourages settling and gives makes your expansion more defensible.

I'd probably go for something like that (though I don't like the name "conquest", but that's a quibble for later):

Opener: +33% vs. Barbarians, encampment notifications and culture for barbarian units killed and for each conquered city (I like the Honor opener in general, but I think adding city conquest means it has some lasting effects after barbarians decline - yet it's rare enough not to do too much).

Feudalism: Garrisons in occupied cities reduce unhappiness by 25%, garrisoned puppeted cities gain +25% gold (this offsets the regular yield penalty to puppeted cities and makes it more useful for the empire as a whole, by making it available earlier, it helps you with earlier wars which cost you enough gold... might need something extra to make it worthwhile in peacetime, perhaps +1 hammer or +1 happiness from garrisons - I like the garrison theme, though).

Collectivism [requires Feudalism]: Free settler and 50% settler training speed. (free settler is too good to be handed out right after the opener, this is still a good policy)

Discipline: +15% unit combat strength w/ friendly adjacent unit and workers improve tiles 25% faster. (basically, it makes all units more efficient, including workers, as initial buy in, that should be fine - don't want to lose the combat bonus either)

Military Caste [requires Discipline]: Free ranged unit with new cities and upgrade costs reduced by 33% (gives that incentive for new cities and means it's easier to keep the garrison up-to-date).

Exaltation [requires Discipline]: Starts a Golden Age. Free great general and they are earned 50% faster and barracks give +1 culture (a free Heroic Epic is very timing dependent, this late in the tree, it's rather likely to already have it, this might be better - this policy is a bit weaker, so I slapped on the +1 culture which kind of fits, but... better ideas are good)

Finisher: Cities increase the culture cost of policies by 33% less than normal and all cities gain free barracks (no maintenance). GG purchase with faith at Industrial. (I like the culture reduction, but I think we can just copy the 33% from Representation. Free barracks are good, it's nice for settled/conquered cities to have them immediately and having them maintenance free for existing cities is good too and ensures that even the AI makes the best use of them)

EDIT: This is mainly my take on Wodhann's proposal, I think there is a need for more things in it to help with a peaceful wide play-style that benefits military, too. Mainly: happiness bonuses, city-connection bonuses and a bit of culture.

 

[Lord Tirian]

@Funak: Food percentage is too good, it benefits the late game more than the early game and encourages "dipping" into the opener late for any empire, openers shouldn't be that good (even 4%-8% food are amazing).
No one said it needed to be the opener

It just seems you want a percentage food bonus in general. The fact that you want it that much tells you that it might be over-powered...

Might aswell just have a flat bonus in that case

That encourages spreading them out again. By having an increasing bonus, even if capped, you encourage building at least three NW in the capital, which is very much in line with the Tradition design. Could make it a non-capital bonus (i.e. applying to all cities), meaning you encourage building taller cities with many NWs in general.

 

[Funak]

It just seems you want a percentage food bonus in general. The fact that you want it that much tells you that it might be over-powered...

I just think %Food is more interesting than %Growth

That encourages spreading them out again. By having an increasing bonus, even if capped, you encourage building at least three NW in the capital, which is very much in line with the Tradition design. Could make it a non-capital bonus (i.e. applying to all cities), meaning you encourage building taller cities with many NWs in general.

Could have any %yield bonus on NWs to keep them in the capital, but I really don't think things capping out is fun.
How many NWs are there anyways? Guilds don't count right?
Anyways a 5% science, gold or culture per NW would be fine wouldn't it? Production would be overpowered for sure, growth aswell. (could also have every NW provide an increase matching it's own type, National college giving science, Ironworks production and so on)