Poll: Founder Beliefs - How is their strength?

[Stalker0]

The usual strength poll. Let us know if any of the founder beliefs need adjustment, or if they are good as is.

If you think conceptually they need adjustment, mention that in the comments.

 

[CrazyG]

I find apostolic tradition a bit much. It's enough to basically ignore food forever in that city, and enough culture to catch up or even get ahead of the AI.

 

[LifeOfBrian]

I think Way of transcendence is also a Founder belief?

Divine inheritance is too strong in my opinion and Way of the Pilgrim needs a conceptual rework because by its very nature it's too human friendly, so it's too hard to properly balance (and after being nerfed, it's way too weak, especially in AI hands).

 

[youngsteve]

I think Way of transcendence is also a Founder belief?

Divine inheritance is too strong in my opinion and Way of the Pilgrim needs a conceptual rework because by its very nature it's too human friendly, so it's too hard to properly balance (and after being nerfed, it's way too weak, especially in AI hands).

Way of Transcendence is, & used to be a good choice for me, but then it got nerfed awhile back & no longer take it.

 

[DeAnno]

Does anyone ever take Ceremonial Burial these days? Even with Tradition often it seems a little weak, maybe if you do the thing with Orders powering TTGOG it's good? But usually I just do Apostolic into that so I don't know.

I feel like Way of Transcendence's main problem is it's super awkward to use the hammers half the time, especially with how the AI hoovers wonders. Maybe you just need to get really good with the timings, or set up to trigger instant yield science on your turn? I feel like the main comparison is Council of Elders which gives you the yields much faster for the wonder rush and much more under your control.

I agree Pilgrim probably wants a full rework, as it is now it's just a bit too pathological of a goal.

 

[CrazyG]

Does anyone ever take Ceremonial Burial these days? Even with Tradition often it seems a little weak, maybe if you do the thing with Orders powering TTGOG it's good? But usually I just do Apostolic into that so I don't know.

I take it if I get a late religion as tradition and other choices were taken first.

I enjoy games with it, or Way of Transendence, a lot more than games with apostolic tradition and other power beliefs. However it's clearly weaker and I hate the feeling of nerfing myself. I think it's about the strength that a founder should be and the other choices are out of line and what should change. Some of the other options just single-handedly solve major challenges and make the game much easier.

On a related note I think holy sites are trash because the rewards you can get for spreading are just absurd by comparison. Like a holy sites requires giving up 6 to 7 medieval era missionaries that easily earn 2000 culture and food with apostolic tradition.

 

[Stalker0]

I think Way of transcendence is also a Founder belief?

Divine inheritance is too strong in my opinion and Way of the Pilgrim needs a conceptual rework because by its very nature it's too human friendly, so it's too hard to properly balance (and after being nerfed, it's way too weak, especially in AI hands).

Thank you for the catch, I have added it as an option to the poll.

 

[tothePAIN]

I think you'll find that the Founder Beliefs that are strongest enable culture. As @CrazyG pointed out in a different thread, the value of certain yields changes over time. Culture is most valuable in the early to mid game.

Apostolic is my go to belief for a tradition civ. Sometimes even for other civs, if I'm going to use the early faith to get culture. It's the best faith to culture engine right now. (Way of the Pilgrim used to be better).

For authority civs, Hero Worship is awesome. It's worth it.

The power level of the spreader founder beliefs depends heavily on the difficulty level. On Deity, Apostolic and Council of Elders are weaker, because the AI spreads its religion very fast. On lower levels, you can get 30 or so procs of the founding belief which pays off in spades.

 

[azum4roll]

The power level of the spreader founder beliefs depends heavily on the difficulty level. On Deity, Apostolic and Council of Elders are weaker, because the AI spreads its religion very fast. On lower levels, you can get 30 or so procs of the founding belief which pays off in spades.

Map size/number of civs matters too. More targets to spread to.

 

[Thibix Magnus]

in theory I would find ceremonial quite good for a tall civ that doesn't have a strong faith production because it provides some faith feed-back. Also (at some point at least) it was much better than I thought because yields seemed to scale with era, which is not on the tooltip. But I struggle to really assess its strength as it is delayed. Also no idea what to do with the faith on unit loss. I could be cool with zealotry (or Venice Lansknecht) and just throw waves of expendable units with faith refund, but this more an authority game, so you don't benefit from the main GP synergy.

 

[DeAnno]

I remember being asked about this before so I took some data in my current game on a GP Spread with Apostolic. This was around turn 160 in a Standard speed Deity game spreading to a pair of size 20+ cities I was walking between as the AI used Inquisitors on them.

Believer Change: / Reward
1->21: 525
2->20: 475
1->19: 475
3->19: 425

So from one GP I got 1900 / yields, pretty nuts on t160-165ish.

From missionaries around this period it is easy to get ~75 / just by the sum of two spreads touching up your own cities (a spread that doesn't flip anyone is 25, and usually there's one of those. A spread that flips at least one is guaranteed 50), or by a little walking to nearby cities you can often get ~100 /.

 

[jekke]

I usually take apostolic tradition in every game where I manage to found a religion and it is available, simply because it is too powerful. One small catch is that you have to choose the holy city carefully, so that this food is most useful in that city. I personally believe the extra food is so good that it could be a decent belief even without the culture.

 

[Melchizedek]

I don't necessarily want founder beliefs to be equally powerful. It takes a large investment to get to religion early: the payoff is first pick. Making them exactly equal constitutes a large nerf to India and a small one to other civs with early faith.

 

[Circe]

Pilgrim is still crazy if you build around it, especially on a faith civ with Veneration. Apostolic tapers off due to increases in food requirements and loss in yields due to established religions, but Pilgrim maintains its yields longer and even gets slightly better as populations rise. The tourism will easily get you to influential with anyone you can reliably reach, which means more yields including food from those trade routes.

Personally I never take Holy Law or Transcendence. It's more psychological than having a mathematical basis, but I look at how they're only giving you yields at fixed intervals and just see more potential coming from the spreading beliefs or Inheritance. You don't always have the luxury of tying wonder construction to era advance. You're also giving up one of the best ways to get more policies(Apostolic or Pilgrim) to take Holy Law. If I go Tall/low faith prod, it's usually Inheritance > Theocratic Rule > Calender, as available.

 

[CrazyG]

Making them exactly equal constitutes a large nerf to India and a small one to other civs with early faith.

Founder beliefs are a major reason not to play as India. Because he can't build missionaries; he can barely use several of the options.

 

[Grassland Farm]

Ceremonial Burial: The associated Wonder is awkward, but close to good.
Hero Worship: Should have an incentive to have followers to recieve the bonus and not just Found + Capture Cities
Pilgrim: Haven't played recently but ever since I won a Theodora game by just spamming Missionaries that were converting noone but still netting me huge tourism... Yeah. I felt like something was up.

Founder beliefs are a major reason not to play as India. Because he can't build missionaries; he can barely use several of the options.

Yeah... I spent so much time trying to "make India work" but I just can't get it right.

 

[Gazebo]

So Way of the Pilgrim and Apostolic are going to get some tweaks (WIP):

Pilgrim: dropping the culture off of the spread, but upping the tourism to 25 (scaling). Adding on: a +8 gold/food (flat, added to city yields) to all cities following this religion. So it's got early spike, with a wide benefit on the city yields and a tall benefit on the tourism.

Apostolic: dropping the culture on spread; adding on +100 faith (era scaling) when you research a technology. We have a policy-centric founder, getting a tech one feels right.

G

 

[DeAnno]

Apos nerf will be the end of an era... I like what's happening to it though, it stays relevant and interesting, the food was always the part of it that was intriguing and not overpowered. Now with additional faith there will be even more food!

Dunno about Pilgrim. Does it still scale in the weird way as before or does it have a new mechanism? The idea of big flat yields is interesting but it almost seems to tread on the heels of follower beliefs.

 

[CrazyG]

Pilgrim: dropping the culture off of the spread, but upping the tourism to 25 (scaling). Adding on: a +8 gold/food (flat, added to city yields) to all cities following this religion. So it's got early spike, with a wide benefit on the city yields and a tall benefit on the tourism.

Is this even a nerf? That's like having 2 follower beliefs instead of a founder, even if you never use the tourism.

 

[Gazebo]

Is this even a nerf? That's like having 2 follower beliefs instead of a founder, even if you never use the tourism.

It's a side-grade. The flat values are not set in stone, but I think the core mechanic (foreign tourism versus wide city yields) has legs.

G