POLL: Some Balance Changes to add to VP

[pineappledan]

Hello All,

I have been hosting and updating a mod that contains numerous changes for base VP (link). I wanted to put some of these ideas out to a vote to see if the general VP community thinks any of these ideas are good enough to be added into main VP?

Below is a list of all the possible changes. This list does not contain everything in my tweaks mod, since some of the tweaks I have made require too much custom code, or aren't sufficiently polished to be up for a vote. Below are all the ones that I think pass that minimum level of quality:

Spoiler Sword Line Changes :

Swordsman Line Changes:
I reduced the base CS of swordsmen to 16. This gives a little more space to vary the strength of unique swordsmen:

• Legion remains at 18CS
• Mohawk remains at 17CS
• Kris is lowered to 16CS, same as base swordsman

Swordsmen and Longswords no longer start with the Cover I promotion. Enough other units get Cover I for free; it felt repetitive.
I have replaced free Cover I with a new free promotion for the Sword line.
Professionalism

+10 HP​

+10% Ranged Defense​

lost on upgrade​

Tercio units also get this promotion. All Tercio units have had their CS reduced by 1 across the board to compensate.
This promotions creates a continuation of the Field Works/Entrenchment/DFPs promotion line. Now, beginning in Classical, there is a unit with this anti-ranged niche promotion line in every era.

Spoiler Skirmisher Line Changes :

Skirmisher Line Changes:
Chariot units:

Chariot Archer-Class units have 4 moves​

Chariot Movement Penalty is back, but with a twist: Chariots lose 1 extra movement in rough terrain​

Chariots have high CS and RCS for their unit line, more like front-line tanks​

Post -Chariot Skirmishers:

All Non-Chariot Skirmishers have 5 base movement​

​

All Skirmishers RCS has been reduced​

Skirmisher doctrine (+/- strength in Open/Rough terrain) has been replaced with a new Skirmisher promotion:​

Hit & Run​

+50% when defending against ranged attacks​

Repetitive with Cover I, yes. But it is necessary to give the skirmishers some defense because their abysmal RCS means they die too easily against ranged units.​

With this change to Skirmishers, Mongolia's UA would also need to be reworked:

Mongols

• Skirmisher line units have +1 Attack (loses +2 moves and ZOC bonus)
• Tribute bonus reduced from +100% to +50%

Spoiler Archer Line changes :

Adds a new ancient era unit to the Archer line: the Slinger, available from the start of the game
Archer and Composite bowman are both made 1 tech later, stronger, and more expensive
Old Archer:

Trapping Tech / 55cost​

2moves / 2Range​

6RCS / 4CS​

Old Composite Bowman:

Mathematics Tech / 90cost​

2moves / 2Range​

11RCS / 11CS​

New Slinger:

Agriculture Tech / 45cost​

2moves / 1Range​

6RCS / 6CS​

New Archer:

Calendar Tech / 70cost (same as Spearman)​

2moves / 2Range​

9RCS / 7CS​

New Composite Bowman:

Currency Tech / 110cost (10 more than Sword, 25 less than Pike)​

2moves / 2Range​

14RCS / 12CS​

Also changes some techs, reshuffles some things without changing the actual component:
Jungle Chop moved forward to Trapping (1 tech earlier, occupies slot of old Archer)
Catapult moved to Mathematics (same tech level, occupies slot of old Composite Bowman)

This change affects several civilizations with unique Archer and CBows:
Incan Slinger:

Now a Slinger replacement. Renamed to Waraq'ak​

Unlocked at game start / 45​

7/7 (+1/+1)​

2 Moves / 2 Range​

Dazed promotion (-15% CS to units hit by Waraq'ak)​

​

Babylonian Bowman:

Now and Archer replacement​

Unlocks at Calendar / 70​

10/9 (+1/+2)​

2 Moves / 2 Range​

Indirect Fire​

Atlatlist:

Stays a Composite Bowman replacement​

Unlocked at Mathematics (1 tech earlier) / 100cost (-10)​

2moves / 2Range​

14RCS / 13CS (+0/+1)​

Atlatl Strike (+33% vs wounded)​

Spoiler small unit CS changes :

• Scout: 10CS
• Maori Warrior: 21 => 22 (to match longsword)

Spoiler England Tweak :

England

• Ship of the Line loses Breacher and Indomitable promotion. Gains Splash I and II promotions.

Spoiler Spain Tweak :

Spain

• Conquistador now replaces Explorer and unlocks at Compass instead of Chivalry
• Has 23CS and 3Moves.
• Gains Overrun and Vanguard promotions for free
• Cities settled by Conquistadors no longer get a free Castle
• Instead, Cities built by Conquistadors have access to the Missionbuilding
  • Missions can be purchased with Faith
  • Missions give +2Faith, +3Defense, +100 HP, and +1Faith to nearby Haciendas
  • Purchasing a Mission in the city triggers a spread action, converting the city to your Capital's majority religion

Spoiler Songhai Tweak :

Songhai

• Removed Road movement along Rivers (too OP)
• Removed +2 Visibility for embarked land units (overlaps with Polynesia)
• Reduced Embarked defense bonus from +100% to +50% (overkill)

Spoiler Brazil Tweak :

Brazil

• Removed Brazil's +25% Culture during Carnival
• Brazilwood Camp no longer requires an adjacent luxury; it requires no Fresh Water access instead (BW slightly more common)
• Added +1 to Brazilwood Camps from Amphitheater, so it has a resource building boost like other luxuries (BW slightly stronger)

Spoiler Korea Rework :

Korea

• UA gives +20%Science during Golden Ages instead of +30%Great Person Rate
• Hwach'a changes:
  • Now replaces Cannon (32, 16)
  • Does not require Iron
  • No longer has Logistics
  • Has Field I and unique 'Singijeon' promotions:
    • 5 splash damage (stacks with splash 1 & 2)
    • +25% combat strength when next to a city (friendly or enemy)
• Seowon changes:
  • No longer gives +15%Science during Golden Ages
  • moved back to Education
  • Base yields changed to 32
  • Gives +1 to all GPTIs near the city (to match the +1 from GWs)

Spoiler Power Plants Rework :

Reworks the 4 existing power plant buildings, and adds a 5th: the Tidal plant.

• No power plants require Factory any more
• All Power plants now give +10% to all Yield processes
• Nuclear plant stays as an option with no terrain augmentation, offering greater GP generation and a higher base production instead. Great for a city focused on specialists
• Wind gives yields to all terrain types, but the lowest yields per tile. Good for mixed-terrain cities
• Solar plant re-focused to production on landlocked and desert cities.
• Hydroelectric Plant split with Tidal Plant into Freshwater and saltwater tiles. Hydro gives more yields than wind if you have lots of freshwater access. Tidal gives very high yields for island and ocean-focused cities.

Power Plant details.

• Hydro Plant (Requires 1 Aluminum, City must be on a River):
  • +10 , +15%
  • +333 to River and Lake tiles
  • +10% to all Yields Processes in City
• Wind Plant (Requires 1 Aluminum):
  • +10 , +15%
  • +1 11 to All Tiles
  • +10% to all Yields Processes in City
• Nuclear Plant (Requires 1 Uranium):
  • +20 , +33%
  • +25% Great Person Rate in city
  • +1111 to all Specialists in City
  • +10% to all Yields Processes in City
• Solar Plant (Requires 1 Aluminum, City must be on or next to Desert):
  • +10 , +15%
  • +11 to Non-Desert Land tiles
  • +33 to Desert tiles
  • +10% to all Yields Processes in City

• Tidal Plant (Requires 1 Aluminum, City must be on Coast)
  • Unlocked at Alternative Energy
  • +10 , +15%
  • +2222 to Coast and Ocean tiles
  • +10% to all Yields Processes in City

Spoiler Refinery Tweak :

Refinery

Moved back 1 tech to Plastics​

Increased cost to 2000 (up from 1800)​

Now gives 1 Coal, Iron and Oil​

Spoiler Late Game Tourism Building Rework :

Airport:

Loses: +25% Great Work boost, +25% terrain, wonders, natural wonders culture to tourism​

Stadium:

Moved to Atomic Theory​

Removed Boredom reduction,​

Removed +25% terrain, wonders, natural wonders culture to tourism​

Gains +50% to Great Works (up from +25%)​

Removed Instant Tourism on completion​

Gains 2500GAP and +20 influence to all City States on completion​

Building requirements, WLTKD, and GAP per Population unchanged​

National Visitor Centre (National Wonder): Removed and replaced with Interpretive Centre

Interpretive Centre (New Building)

2250​

Available at: Telecommunications (same as Visitor Centre)​

Requires: Hotel (same as Visitor Centre)​

+50% of culture from terrain, wonders, natural wonders-> Tourism​

+2 happiness​

+1 and to all Landmarks on Empire​

Tech Changes:

Remove +2 to Landmarks on Telecommunications​

Move +2 to Musicians from Satellites to Telecommunications​

CN Tower Wonder Change:

CN Tower 50% to local GWs and Tile conversion reduced to 25%​

Added 25% global GW and Tile conversion (total of 50% local GW and tile bonus still)​

Spoiler Instant Tourism on Buildings removal :

Other Building Changes:

Remove all instant Tourism from buildings on construction:​

• Circus: Changed back to 100 on completion (Ceilidh Hall has still always been 100)
• Zoos: Changed to 500 on completion
• Stadiums: Changed to 2500 and 20 with all CS on completion (see above)

Spoiler National Parks & Supermarket :

2 new mechanics for players to decide how they will use their empire's land: will you preserve natural features into the late game and convert them into National parks( ), or will you maximize your farmland and urbanization with Supermarkets( )?

National Park (worker improvement)

Unlocked at Biology​

Can be built on any Forest, Jungle, or Marsh​

111​

222 at Alternative Energy​

22 for every adjacent Natural Wonder​

11 for every adjacent National Park​

2 If worked by a city with a Zoo​

Supermarket (Building)

unlocked at Refrigeration ​

2250, 10Gold maintenance​

+1Food for every Farm and Pasture Improvement on Empire, regardless of where it is or if it is being worked​

+200% Gold from City connections in this City​

2 Specialists in the city do not generate Urbanization​

Building changes:
Zoos only give +1 to Forest and Jungle (down from 21)
+2 to nearby National Parks

 

[gwennog]

I voted.
For the Songhai, I really prefer the Hinin Tweak. The very positive points for me in its proposals are the Slinger, the Power Plant Rework, National Parks and to remove instant tourism from building.

 

[Hinin]

Hwach'a changes:

• Now replaces Cannon (32, 16)
• No longer has Logistics
• Has Field I and unique 'Singijeon' promotions:
  • 5 splash damage (stacks with splash 1 & 2)
  • +25% combat strength when next to a city (friendly or enemy)

Also don't forget that the Hwacha doesn't require Iron, despite being a Cannon replacement (or maybe you added it back since the last time I looked).

 

[pineappledan]

I'm not happy with the songhai changes either. The long-term solution to Songhai's being overpowered -- I think -- requires new code for a different kind of river-related military bonus. That is outside my scope or abilities, but for the short term, nerfing his kit directly without reworking him keeps him from crossing over with Ethiopia/Denmark (although arguably he is just a carbon copy of iroquois but with rivers right now).

@Hinin's Songhai tweaks are part of a larger reshuffle of civs and UAs that I think tries to reorganize too many things at once, which makes it a harder sell, but also a bit confusing to keep track of what goes where. The %Faith during GAPs is taken from Ethiopia's Stele, which then also needs to be reworked, but it also comes into conflict with Korea, who also has major yield bonuses during GAs.

Currently Korea has TWO bonuses during GAs: +15% from the Seowon and +30%GAP generation from his UA. My Korea Proposal is to condense that to 20% just on the UA and a different bonus for the Seowon, so that Korea's kit is not so overlapping and repetitive with itself. However, it would therefore start to overlap more with Songhai, since both would be getting their yields during GAs bonus directly as a modifier on the UA.

Also don't forget that the Hwacha doesn't require Iron, despite being a Cannon replacement (or maybe you added it back since the last time I looked).

Fixed. Thanks for pointing that out. Do, I didn't re-add, and the tweaks mod still uses your plague placer. I think moving the ChuKoNu promotion whole cloth is an easier sell than a plague placer though.

 

[Hinin]

@Hinin's Songhai tweaks are part of a larger reshuffle of civs and UAs that I think tries to reorganize too many things at once, which makes it a harder sell, but also a bit confusing to keep track of what goes where. The %Faith during GAPs is taken from Ethiopia's Stele, which then also needs to be reworked, but it also comes into conflict with Korea, who also has major yield bonuses during GAs.

I think we could separate my civ tweaks in two categories : those who are really guided by personal taste (like Songhai or the upcoming Greece and Machrek reworks), and those who try more realistically to bring a possible rework to the table (like Rome, France or the upcoming Egypt).

The general changes of my tweak mod (ancient ruins, upcoming tech scaling change etc) are more important aspects of the mod that I would like to present to the general playerbase with a poll one of these days, but they require extensive testing and reviews to be up to the standards of base VP.

Fixed. Thanks for pointing that out. Do, I didn't re-add, and the tweaks mod still uses your plague placer. I think moving the ChuKoNu promotion whole cloth is an easier sell than a plague placer though.

Yes, I saw that. You want to give Logistics back to the Chu-Ko-Nu in exchange (with the XP removed from the second attack as a caveat), if I understood well what was going on in the discussions.

 

[KlHannibal2]

Lots of interesting ideas here.

The food bonus on the supermarket could be excessive if you go super wide and have the food corp. Maybe use a cap for max food.

 

[pineappledan]

I think we could separate my civ tweaks in two categories : those who are really guided by personal taste (like Songhai or the upcoming Greece and Machrek reworks), and those who try more realistically to bringt a possible rework to the table (like Rome, France or the upcoming Egypt).

I would say your Songhai rework in particular totally re-focuses the civ onto a different playstyle, and I don't think we've discussed what it is people want Songhai to do. For now I've just tried to keep his focus the same, but I think he is more balanced without his river roads movement bonus than he is with it. I think it's better than what we have, and it's better than what I have proposed here, but I am focused on being conservative and incremental with these changes.

The war canoes promotion bonuses just seem like an oversight to me; a holdover from when embarked defense was calculated differently. +100% defense on the new embarked units makes them much much stronger than contemporary melee ships, and basically immune to damage.

Yes, I saw that. You want to give Logistics back to the Chu-Ko-Nu in exchange (with the XP removed from the second attack as a caveat), if I understood well what was going on in the discussions.

I haven't proposed any changes to china (yet)

The food bonus on the supermarket could be excessive if you go super wide and have the food corp. Maybe use a cap for max food.

next time you play wide, count how many farms you have. I think you will be surprised how few you have without deliberately focusing them. My own experience with late game tells me a limit wouldn't be necessary, or would be set so high that most games you wouldn't reach it.

The other part of this is that I think players should be rewarded for pushing late game mechanics to the edge. There is no franchise limit on Order's Nationalization policy, for instance.

 

[Rekk]

If Maori is going to have the same CS as a longsword, it should just be a replacement.

 

[Rekk]

Note that the Ship of the Line hasn't had Breacher for some time, as it the damage on kill doesn't function for ranged. This is just replacing Indomitable + (Logistics on next promotion) with Logistics.

The original intention was to nerf the Ship of the Line because it was too strong with Logistics by replacing it with Indomitable; however a later decision to nerf Logistics for ships was made and Indomitable was made a prereq. So now the Ship of the Line is even stronger than it was before it was initially nerfed.

 

[Kim Dong Un]

I'm in favour of the Brazilwood adjustments, but no culture boost during Carnival just feels wrong. Why not just nerf it from 25% to 10% ?

 

[Rekk]

I'm in favour of the Brazilwood adjustments, but no culture boost during Carnival just feels wrong. Why not just nerf it from 25% to 10% ?

China and Brazil are sharing the niche of +% yields during WLTKD. Since Brazil already has -% needs (which feeds into their golden age trigger), he figures China should be the one that keeps all of the +% yields.

 

[Kim Dong Un]

China and Brazil are sharing the niche of +% yields during WLTKD. Since Brazil already has -% needs (which feeds into their golden age trigger), he figures China should be the one that keeps all of the +% yields.

Fair enough.

Though, IMO, increased culture during Carnival is more symbolic, thematic and representative of Brazil, than a minor increase in food is to China. Excuse me if that is ignorant; my knowledge of Chinese history and culture lacks anything pertaining to an "Empress Day".

 

[pineappledan]

I'm in favour of the Brazilwood adjustments, but no culture boost during Carnival just feels wrong. Why not just nerf it from 25% to 10% ?

There are several reasons I think that Brazil would be better without the %Culture on WLTKD bonus:

1. Removing it doesn't change how Brazil plays:: Brazil has a 2nd, more unique bonus during Carnival, which basically eliminates Needs on empire. Having the extra culture on top of that doesn't affect what you focus on, because there is already another powerful reward for getting Carnivals
2. Brazil's UA has bonuses to both offense and defense for CV:: The other big component to Brazil's UA is the conversion of GAPs into Tourism when a Golden Age begins. This is an offensive weapon for cultural victory. Raw Culture generation, in the form of a massive % modifier is a defense against CV. I personally don't like how the UA looks omnipotent in this regard; it should pick sword or shield, and focus on that.
   
3. Brazil has another powerful Culture bonus:: The Brazilwood Camp is primarily a large culture battery. Having both the UA and the UI pointed at the same yield focus is allowed, but not necessary, and it's not terrific design to have 2 components accomplish the same thing. It would be more sleek and well-designed if the UA lost its culture bonuses, and the UI was made stronger to compensate
4. There is another civ that has +% Yield during WLTKD in its UA:: China has +10%Food during its special WLTED. Considering Brazil also has the massive unhappiness reduction, and doesn't really need the culture to also be in the UA, it seems that Carnival's larger % bonus to a stronger yield type ( >>) mainly exists to make China look like a chump in comparison.

EDIT: 4.5 There is another-other civ that has +% during WLTKD in its UB:: Indonesia has 15% Culture modifier during WLTKD on the Candi, so the exact same bonus as Brazil, but on a UB instead of on the UA directly. In addition to this overlap, Brazil and Indonesia are the only 2 civs with unique luxury resources. We can do better than this.
​

Overall, it's my opinion that Brazil has been overdue for a nerf anyways. With the changes to the Candi and the Indonesian luxuries, Brazilwood was also the only luxury left in the game to not have a building boost. So this is an opportunity to clean up that inconsistency. If the UA is insufficient without the %Culture modifier, the things to do are
a) make the Brazilwood Camp even stronger
b) increase the GAP to Tourism conversion.
This will keep Brazil's bonuses separated and focused, making the design cleaner.

 

[InkAxis]

What's the justification for the late Game Tourism Building Rework? How does it interact with Polynesia who really wants those terrain converters?

 

[pineappledan]

What's the justification for the late Game Tourism Building Rework? How does it interact with Polynesia who really wants those terrain converters?

The total number of late game tourism converters and modifiers are nearly the same. However, bonuses are overall on later techs, especially the tile converter, and cost more production.
The global 25%tiles and +25% GW are on a world wonder instead of an easy national wonder. Same tech level, but harder and more expensive to get.
The maximum potential Tile conversion and GW modifiers you can have in 1 city has been reduced by 25% for each, because the CN tower now combines its own local bonus with the global bonus from the old Visitor Center, and the Airport doesn't contribute to a CV at all. Overall, this makes CN tower more powerful and valuable for CV players, but the spike in 1 city isn't as high as when it could be stacked with the Airport.

Old:
Hotel:: 25% tiles // 25% GW
Airport:: 25% tiles // 25% GW
Stadium:: 25% tiles // 25% GW
Visitor Center:: Global 25% tiles // 25% GW
CN Tower:: 50% tiles // 50% GW
Total in cities without CN tower:: 100% tiles // 100% GW
Total in cities with CN tower:: 150% tiles // 150% GW

New:
Hotel:: 25% tiles // 25% GW
Airport:: 0% tiles // 0% GW
Stadium:: 0% tiles // 50% GW
Interpretive Center:: 50% tiles // 0% GW
CN Tower 1:: Local 25% tiles // 25% GW
CN Tower 2:: Global 25% tiles // 25% GW
Total in cities without CN tower:: 100% tiles // 100% GW
Total in cities with CN tower:: 125% tiles // 125% GW

This is intentionally designed to slow down CV, as people have been saying that CV is too fast and too easy. Combined with the removal of instant Tourism from buildings, I hope this makes enough room for the possible inclusion of the national parks, which are another CV mechanic without bloating the late game, and putting us back where we started.

 

[Legen]

There are several reasons I think that Brazil would be better without the %Culture on WLTKD bonus:

I don't mind a nerf, but I think it would be better to hit not the culture, but the growth modifier. Brazil's Carnival used to replace WLTKD's 25% Growth for a 25% Culture, instead of adding on top of it, and I think it could be reverted back to that.

I remember discussing with Gazebo about that years ago. I suggested for Brazil to have the 25% Growth added back for two reasons: supply and happiness cap. Supply was especially low at the time, with Brazil suffering a lot to save some for Bandeirantes. The most relevant for this discussion, though, was that the lack of Growth worked against the -50% Needs, since the empire's happiness was capped by population; you could have 200 Happiness from your sources and zero unhappiness, but if your population is only 100, then you'd only have 100 Happiness and, therefore, only 100 GAP per turn from happiness. As such, maximizing growth was of essence for Brazil's UA to work.

That reason is no longer valid. One of the patches in the recent months removed population as a cap for happiness; you can now have more happiness than population. As such, growth is no longer necessary to get the most out of Brazil's UA. The Carnival can easily go back to replace growth with culture, instead of adding culture on top of it.

A particular benefit of this approach is that it makes Carnival a clear contrast to China's Empress Day; while China's UA pushes WLTKD's growth even further, Brazil would do the opposite and completely ditch away growth from WLTKD. This should address your fourth point:

There is another civ that has +% Yield during WLTKD in its UA:: China has +10%Food during its special WLTED. Considering Brazil also has the massive unhappiness reduction, and doesn't really need the culture to also be in the UA, it seems that Carnival's larger % bonus to a stronger yield type ( >>) mainly exists to make China look like a chump in comparison.

With Carnival being back as a replacement, Brazil and China become very distinct from each other, despite both focusing on WLTKD.

Also note that China is expected to proc those unique WLTKD more often with Great Works and city acquisition than Brazil with Golden ages; the former is expected to spend a lot more time under WLTKD than Brazil, and do so much earlier. So, even with >> , it should still be fair due to the frequency of the benefits, especially if Carnival no longer grants growth.

About the other points:

• Removing it doesn't change how Brazil plays:: Brazil has a 2nd, more unique bonus during Carnival, which basically eliminates Needs on empire. Having the extra culture on top of that doesn't affect what you focus on, because there is already another powerful reward for getting Carnivals

• Brazil's UA has bonuses to both offense and defense for CV:: The other big component to Brazil's UA is the conversion of GAPs into Tourism when a Golden Age begins. This is an offensive weapon for cultural victory. Raw Culture generation, in the form of a massive % modifier is a defense against CV. I personally don't like how the UA looks omnipotent in this regard; it should pick sword or shield, and focus on that.

• Brazil has another powerful Culture bonus:: The Brazilwood Camp is primarily a large culture battery. Having both the UA and the UI pointed at the same yield focus is allowed, but not necessary, and it's not terrific design to have 2 components accomplish the same thing. It would be more sleek and well-designed if the UA lost its culture bonuses, and the UI was made stronger to compensate

I don't think the 25% Culture should be removed. Brazil has been designed as a lategame civ, akin to Austria. The rework away from the BNW design didn't change that. Even the reworked design is start relatively weak and scale better than more generalistic civs. The +25% Culture is part of that intent, as such modifiers tend to be too small in the early eras, but noticeable in the later ones; I don't think it should go away, as the risk is of the civ losing the intended scaling.

Because of this design, I think the UI shouldn't be receiving buffs in the earlier eras. It already got a noticeable early yield buff back when Brazilwood went to have a monopoly (+2 culture) attached to it. If it is for consistency in having a building boosting it, I think it should be in a much later building than the Amphitheater, like the Opera House.

Brazil is also a civ focused into one specific victory condition, same as Austria, who also has both sword and shield when it comes to allying and keeping City-states, and its position in the World Congress. Unless you're also another CV focused civ (Arabia), you're expected to face Brazil by pursuing a different victory condition instead, or by knocking at their doors with your army. Brazil has worse military capability than a generic civ due to its UU being an utility-based one, rather than a core combat unit; their military never has a strong defensive window, nor keeps any extra combat promotions or capability over the next eras. Warmonger AIs tend to have a field day with AI Pedro for that reason, especially AI Montezuma and Hiawatha.

Last, the latest patch should have toned down Brazil's tourism anyway, and I'm not sure it the UA is actually that strong in that area anymore. I haven't tested it yet, but I think the civ should be on watch of being potentially overnerfed already.

- Fixed bug with Brazil's Golden Age mechanic (could be exploited to gain many more yields than intended)

Given the recent patch, I think the most I'd see Brazil nerfed is the growth removal from the Carnival, just like it used to be, for the sake of differentiating it from China. However, I'd add the Brazilwood yields on a late building (Opera House or so) as a compensation.

 

[Fluffball]

I said no to the Songhai nerf primarily as they are the only really dangerous civ i encounter and while i usually play with random civs if i am going for a warmonger run they are the one civ i tend to specifically add to the game. If i bump up against them early they usually require some serious out of the box thinking to deal with and if i bump up to them late in the game they are usually huge and create a serious challenge at a time where your usually just walking over everyone in your way.

I said yes to the national parks but for the supermarket and late game culture buildings i don't see them as the core issue. I would love tourism to go back to being more late game focused so these potential changes might be more interesting but tourism is so OP at the moment that it is usually over before the proposed tourism changes come in to play. Getting dominant with other civs is generally so easy that it even wastes tourism modifiers in ideologies as the leader or even leaders are usually dominant before they are available and their just counting down the tenants needed to build the wonder.

Tourism is in fact so easy i have even started thinking about not even bothering with artistry when going for tourism. Musicians are now worthless, you get much more science from fealty and you can also end up in an infinite golden ages easily by buying great artists with fealty which again are more useful as they increase your culture output which is the real bottleneck as your waiting for enough tenants to be able to win. Fealty also make it easier to pick a good religion which is generally much more influencial than artistry.

Only thing which really attract me to artistry these days is the 25% great person rate but not sure that even really means a great deal by itself.

 

[Zuizgond]

I like most of the proposed changes.

I don't like/understand the stadium rework. Boredom reduction was fine (and fits stadium well). GAP and city-state influence on completion why? It doesn't make sense. Tourism makes more sense for a stadium and if 2500 is too much we can just decrease the amount.

Also +500 science on zoo completion doesn't make sense either.

 

[pineappledan]

I don't mind a nerf, but I think it would be better to hit not the culture, but the growth modifier. Brazil's Carnival used to replace WLTKD's 25% Growth for a 25% Culture, instead of adding on top of it, and I think it could be reverted back to that.

I remember discussing with Gazebo about that years ago. I suggested for Brazil to have the 25% Growth added back for two reasons: supply and happiness cap. Supply was especially low at the time, with Brazil suffering a lot to save some for Bandeirantes. The most relevant for this discussion, though, was that the lack of Growth worked against the -50% Needs, since the empire's happiness was capped by population; you could have 200 Happiness from your sources and zero unhappiness, but if your population is only 100, then you'd only have 100 Happiness and, therefore, only 100 GAP per turn from happiness. As such, maximizing growth was of essence for Brazil's UA to work.

That reason is no longer valid. One of the patches in the recent months removed population as a cap for happiness; you can now have more happiness than population. As such, growth is no longer necessary to get the most out of Brazil's UA. The Carnival can easily go back to replace growth with culture, instead of adding culture on top of it.

A particular benefit of this approach is that it makes Carnival a clear contrast to China's Empress Day; while China's UA pushes WLTKD's growth even further, Brazil would do the opposite and completely ditch away growth from WLTKD. This should address your fourth point:



With Carnival being back as a replacement, Brazil and China become very distinct from each other, despite both focusing on WLTKD.

Also note that China is expected to proc those unique WLTKD more often with Great Works and city acquisition than Brazil with Golden ages; the former is expected to spend a lot more time under WLTKD than Brazil, and do so much earlier. So, even with >> , it should still be fair due to the frequency of the benefits, especially if Carnival no longer grants growth.

About the other points:



I don't think the 25% Culture should be removed. Brazil has been designed as a lategame civ, akin to Austria. The rework away from the BNW design didn't change that. Even the reworked design is start relatively weak and scale better than more generalistic civs. The +25% Culture is part of that intent, as such modifiers tend to be too small in the early eras, but noticeable in the later ones; I don't think it should go away, as the risk is of the civ losing the intended scaling.

Because of this design, I think the UI shouldn't be receiving buffs in the earlier eras. It already got a noticeable early yield buff back when Brazilwood went to have a monopoly (+2 culture) attached to it. If it is for consistency in having a building boosting it, I think it should be in a much later building than the Amphitheater, like the Opera House.

Brazil is also a civ focused into one specific victory condition, same as Austria, who also has both sword and shield when it comes to allying and keeping City-states, and its position in the World Congress. Unless you're also another CV focused civ (Arabia), you're expected to face Brazil by pursuing a different victory condition instead, or by knocking at their doors with your army. Brazil has worse military capability than a generic civ due to its UU being an utility-based one, rather than a core combat unit; their military never has a strong defensive window, nor keeps any extra combat promotions or capability over the next eras. Warmonger AIs tend to have a field day with AI Pedro for that reason, especially AI Montezuma and Hiawatha.

Last, the latest patch should have toned down Brazil's tourism anyway, and I'm not sure it the UA is actually that strong in that area anymore. I haven't tested it yet, but I think the civ should be on watch of being potentially overnerfed already.



Given the recent patch, I think the most I'd see Brazil nerfed is the growth removal from the Carnival, just like it used to be, for the sake of differentiating it from China. However, I'd add the Brazilwood yields on a late building (Opera House or so) as a compensation.

You're arguing against a proposed change by arguing for new code. I said this with the Songhai changes and I will say it here, I am not proposing any new code outside of a single new ability attached to the supermarket. If you want to discuss new code then the sky is the limit, but the Brazil thread is a better place for such theorycrafting.

As I said, I would happily also raise the to conversion to something like 50% (currently 30%), but having the 25% As it Exists Now is repetitive, both with itself and with another civ, and makes the UA less focused than it could be if the other aspects of the UI and UA were made stronger.
You recommended having the building boost for Brazilwood moved back to Opera House. I chose amphitheater for a few reasons:

• Amphitheater already has resource boosts on it and Opera house doesn't
• Brazilwood camps currently gain +2 at Acoustics, where Opera House unlocks, so this is already covered
• Brazilwood camps do not have any boosts in Classical, so adding a resource boost in that era smooths out the yield progression.

Now, you could make the Opera house boost it still, but you would probably drop the tech boost on the same tech, so you don't have 2 bonuses of the same kind (yields) for the same thing (tile improvement) in the same place(acoustics). You would just be stealing from Peter to pay Paul though.

 

[Hinin]

I said no to the Songhai nerf primarily as they are the only really dangerous civ i encounter and while i usually play with random civs if i am going for a warmonger run they are the one civ i tend to specifically add to the game. If i bump up against them early they usually require some serious out of the box thinking to deal with and if i bump up to them late in the game they are usually huge and create a serious challenge at a time where your usually just walking over everyone in your way.

To me, that sounds less like a problem with the Songhai being op, and more about the AI not being threatening enough most of the time.

From the tests I've seen, the AI still has problems with conquering during the first half of the game. Knowing that Songhai is at its strongest at this point (with a very relevant production bonus and the lack of ZOC making the river bonus movement even more powerful), it is no wonder that it feels much more "threatening" that other civs. That said, I feel like people should reject the power fantasy that is current Songhai, and so accept the nerf, but lobby for a more general buff to early warfare for the AI (lowered city defense and more aggression, most notably).