Poll: What is the Best Unique Unit?

[AfterShafter]

Really? Wow, AfterShafter, I thought you used to slam the fast worker in older threads circa '06

I did? I was a huge Gandhi fan in '05/'06 But, granted, I can't remember what I was liking or not back then, so who knows.

Anyways, Fast Worker gets my vote for one major reason now - I'm playing on Deity, and when I attack is dictated almost entirely by proper window of opportunity, not by when I get my super-cool unit. If my empire isn't ready to wage one of those arduous Deity wars with swordsmen, Praets aren't going to change that. Nor Oromos or Cataphracts or Redcoats in their respective eras...

Thus, Fast Worker gets my vote - he's always helpful to me, whether I'm going to war or not. What wins me games in Deity is being able to get my empire running ASAP, and being in as stable a position as possible in a really short time frame before I go to war. Fast workers always help me with that.

My vote goes for cataphract since my #1 pick is off the list... Red Coats getting a secondary nod. They're sometimes useful in their eras as I'm playing now, whereas things like War Chariots and Quechas get me killed 9/10 times, so what bloody good are they? Praets... Meh, most often I'm not ready to go to war at the point they're really useful. What's more, I just find them overrated at anything other than exploiting weak AI's these days.

 

[dirtyparrot]

I vote for praets, but I do like the Hwacha (which is basically an axeman with collateral damage minus the ability to fortify, which for me is OK since I like to do the attacking). I just do a beeline to construction and let loose with the Hwachas who are effective for quite some time.

 

[QuixotesGhost]

Here's what I don't like about Preats:

1. They're expensive.

2. IW is a fairly expensive ancient tech that is out of the way, it does hardly anything for you economically, and the only situationally useful tech it leads to is compass (oh yeah and Steel ).

3. Also there's the resource issue. Unlike an ancient era unit that enables with bronze or horses it's much harder to actually see the resource. So concerning tech and settling you have to:

A. Research iron while your still settling in lieu of a more useful economic tech just to make sure you actually settle near iron. If I grab something as expensive as iron before writing it sets me behind a huge amount. Just make up for it with Preats, you say? See that's the thing - I still don't know if I have iron nearby yet. So if I detour for iron that early and end up with none I'm up the creek without a paddle.

B. Wait a bit longer, when all the land has often been grabbed and hope and pray you just happened to settle near an iron resource.

Preats are incredibly powerful - don't get me wrong, but I find them awkward as hell to actually use. Give me immortals anyday over preats. At least then I can actually see the resource in a reasonable timeframe to plan for war or not. And they enable on animal husbandry, who doesn't want animal husbandry? It's on the way to writing and I can start herding.

 

[bestbrian]

In all the previous incarnations of this thread I've voted for the Fast Worker, but since that's not availible....

I think what AfterShafter wrote above is correct. I also think that the most important part of a UU is the fun factor; heck, this is a game after all. Playing Ottoman and bee-lining Gunpowder to get a stack of Jans up and running in the early ADs, that's fun. That having been said, I'll reveal myself to be the solo vote for the Conquistador. I just have so much fun with these guys. They own every other unit until Rifling and are a total blast. Also keep in mind that I play Marathon, where I get the time to enjoy them.

Honorable mentions, for fun factor, to the Quecha, Praet, and Jan. Cataphracts look like fun also, but I haven't played as Byzantium yet.

 

[feralminded]

I ignored Praets because they need to be nerfed.

I had to go immortals because they are better rushers than my War Chariots (although only slightly ... WC's are immune to first strikes out the gate) and I LOVE my WCs. They are the best rush unit in the game as long as you have horses. Faster movers than Quecha, better against the likely defender than WCs, and none of the UU axeman are good city rushers. I guess in reality Quechas are better because they are resourceless and its hard to go wrong with them, but oh well ... I like rushing with fast units.

That said I think Keshiks are a valid choice as well.

I also think you miscalculated by leaving Numidan's off the list. Recently I've been playing a lot of Hannibal and honestly these guys might as well be considered counterless. Pre-feudalism they steamroll nearly as hard as Keshiks. I mean 30% withdrawal out the door and a charismatic leader means you only need to be Theo or Vass to start with 3 promotions (flanking II, C1, Shock anyone?). Their "counter" is a very scared spearman who's facing a 50% withdrawal unit with a base strength of 9.25 vs his base of 8 and if he's lucky 8.8 at C2. Even C2, formation only brings that spearman up to 9.8 but the Numidan still has 50% withdrawal. Its not even close to a fair fight unless the spear has walls or a forest around him. And if there are no spears nothing is going to even vaguely stop them. Keshiks fare better once Longbows come around but the numidans still crush everything else better.

 

[Tephros]

Here's what I don't like about Preats:

1. They're expensive.

Compared to other units of their era, perhaps, but not compared to their strength. Much cheaper than war elephants or macemen, which have the same base strength.

2. IW is a fairly expensive ancient tech that is out of the way, it does hardly anything for you economically, and the only situationally useful tech it leads to is compass (oh yeah and Steel ).

That's situational. It does a heck of a lot for you economically if you have gems covered by jungle, and a little if you have ivory camps covered by jungle. Also, potential cottage cities, with a lot of grassland, are often covered by jungle. IW can allow you to get started on such a city, but carries the disadvantage that you basically need an extra worker to remove all that jungle.

Leading to compass is no small deal if you built/captured the great lighthouse.

3. Also there's the resource issue. Unlike an ancient era unit that enables with bronze or horses it's much harder to actually see the resource. So concerning tech and settling you have to:

A. Research iron while your still settling in lieu of a more useful economic tech just to make sure you actually settle near iron. If I grab something as expensive as iron before writing it sets me behind a huge amount. Just make up for it with Preats, you say? See that's the thing - I still don't know if I have iron nearby yet. So if I detour for iron that early and end up with none I'm up the creek without a paddle.

B. Wait a bit longer, when all the land has often been grabbed and hope and pray you just happened to settle near an iron resource.

Agreed here.

Preats are incredibly powerful - don't get me wrong, but I find them awkward as hell to actually use. Give me immortals anyday over preats. At least then I can actually see the resource in a reasonable timeframe to plan for war or not. And they enable on animal husbandry, who doesn't want animal husbandry? It's on the way to writing and I can start herding.

As TMIT pointed out, it's not like the AI spams spears, but I'd point out that spears do eat immortals for breakfast. There is nothing in their era that does that to praetorians (or war elephants). Because they can also fortify, praetorians also make better city defenders than archers. You can use praetorians for both offense and defense. Very versatile.

 

[CCRunner]

Praetorians, Immortals, and Keshiks are the top 3

Praets win by a small margin though. A 33% strength boost is massive

 

[TheMeInTeam]

War chariots and immortals come in a timeframe where AI spear production should be extremely limited, because you are going to find his metal and you are going to pillage it.

If you turn resource yields on, you can see the yields as they are for THAT CITY. This means that even if (for some reason) you're rushing an AI before you have BW/IW (or you just can't see iron), you can still tell where their metal is if you look carefully. That is your first stop, unless you can immediately take the only city that puts it within their culture really quickly.

Obviously war chariot/immortal kind of suck against maya but other than that they're pretty sound. I won't put them over the keshik but they're quite powerful too. Shorter lived, but probably a bit easier to use.

 

[azzaman333]

I really wish I could've voted for the Jaguar, so instead I voted for the War Chariot. And honestly, I'm really shocked that no one else voted for it. It takes 1 tech to get them, unlike the 2 for Immortals, so you're facing less Archers with less bonuses.

 

[feralminded]

WCs, Immortals, Keshiks, Numidans ... I think all are roughly equivalent when everything is considered at dominating their period. WCs/Immortals can knock down archers and only hit a hard stop with spears (which they can usually control through smart pillaging). Keshiks and Numidans can knock down spears and are only stopped by either Elephants (who are just cheap) or longbows ... but you can get HBR pretty early if you want to and exploit a period of horse dominance with planning. On top of that the most evil thing about it is all of these units FLY ... Keshiks obviously the best but the others still do fine on most terrain.

Actually I think only Quecha's and Praets are the only units I could put in the same league with the above. I suppose maybe Janissaries but the later a unit the more complicated it becomes to leverage them.

Yeah when looking at the numbers it was definitely a big mistake to leave Numidans out. Pre-feudalism they perform almost lockstep with Keshiks (its eerie how a Numidan under Hannibal w/ barracks + stable has 3 promotions and is only 3xp from a 4th while a Keshik under Ghengis w/ Barracks + Ger is exactly the same). Keshiks edge out Numidans against Archers but both roll them handily with their base promotions. Numidans edge out Keshiks against melee/spears but both still handily win with their 3 promotions (Keshiks cut it close though). Keshiks have the advantage against other horses. Keshiks have their movement. Still I cannot express how close these two units are out the gate but you almost never hear Numidans spoken about and Keshiks get tons of praise. I will admit that the Keshiks are slightly better but man, Numidans are nasty. They flatten spears with ease. And then of course you still get a FIN leader and you get one of the best UBs as well (whereas the Keshiks chew up the UB keeping up with the Numidans). I guess I just have a thing for the underdog ... go War Chariots and Numidans!!

Still ... have I said it enough ... Numidans are a top 10 unit, close to top 5, and you leave them off the list??!?!

 

[feralminded]

I really wish I could've voted for the Jaguar, so instead I voted for the War Chariot. And honestly, I'm really shocked that no one else voted for it. It takes 1 tech to get them, unlike the 2 for Immortals, so you're facing less Archers with less bonuses.

And they are immune to first strikes unpromoted.

 

[Justin Somnios]

I like to upgrade units ASAP, but Praetorians are pretty much equal to Macemen, so why do it? Unfortunately, when it's time to bring out the gunpowder, they're a pain to upgrade.

 

[feralminded]

Oh and yeah whoever voted "War Elephants" is right. They are ridiculous and make even the mighty Praet tremble. At least Praets can be reasonably controlled with Axes behind walls promoted to shock (although the CR line will win the Praet out here in the end, at least its close). A Praet loses to an axe in a forest and hits a dead stop at machinery. Elephants though? No real counter until Engineering. Even longbows behind walls don't fare so great against them. The elephants can stack defend against everything you can throw at them too. Its kind of sad but if you land ivory early and have a neighbor without it you should be all but guaranteed twice your land as soon as you tech construction.

 

[ace94d]

Fast Worker, by far.

It saves you far more turns then any other unit. It accelerates /everything/. Move into a forest and start chopping it, +1 turn. Move into a hill and start mining it, +1 turns. You can move your workers from city to city with incredible speed. And it never obsoletes. Ever. What other unit makes /everything/ you do faster?

But since it was so excluded, I'll go Cho-Ko-Nu. 50% Vs. Melee is, while natural, very useful. First strikes? Yes. /Collatoral Damage/? Hell yeah. Praets need Catapult support. Keshiks require the a dead-end technology(Horseback Riding) and /can/ have trouble against heavily fortified cities. Despite this, they are still useful.

Cho-Ko-Nu does not need a dead-end tech and needs no support, as it does it's own collatoral. Truly, it's biggest drawback is that it comes late.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Praets need Catapult support.

Not really. I have nothing against sacrificing a couple. I NEVER wait until having construction to declare war with my Praetorians.

Though catapults supply collateral damage and may be necessary later on when the AI has more defenders, when first getting Iron (assuming it's nearby), it would be silly to wait for catapults (and the AI to build up it's defense force).

With a good production capital, you can continuously pump out praetorians and assimilate or destroy all civs nearby. Although, on really high levels, you may be forced to wait until having Construction (depending on the AI leaders)

 

[feralminded]

Yeah you can attack with Praets when the AI is still at 20-40% range so you really don't need cats immediately.

 

[Iranon]

1st place: Quechua. They can be a gamebreaking advantage from turn 1. They remain viable combat troops for very long if you make it a priority to disconnect your opponents' resources. They do an excellent job of fending off barbarian archers, no techs or resources required.
Far after their era of glory is over, they remain dirt-cheap garrison units and also allow a limited form of rush-buying for melee units (up to and including Macemen if you don't have Hunting or Engineering), with a free promotion thrown in.

2nd place: Shared by Immortal and War Chariot. They also excel at taking archer-defended cities and remain effective against longbows.

3rd place: Shared by Praetorian and Cho-Ko-Nu, for being excellent general purpose units that tend to dominate warfare for millenia.

***

I am fond of Oromos and Jaguars for promotion madness, but they don't have the same potential to break the game.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Here's my argument against your choices Iranon (I like playing devil's advocate, since your rebuttal will teach me more about the game).

1. Quechas can only do so much good. On larger maps, by the time you can effectively invade a civ on the other side of the continent, they will already have plenty of axemen or chariots that will kick the crap outta the Quechas.

2. War Chariots and Immortals are easily stopped by spearmen so the same goes for them.

3. Praets are utilized immediately from their creation and can continue to invade civs on the other side of large continents. You can literally own the entire (huge map) continent before researching machinery with Praets.

 

[azzaman333]

Quechas and War Chariots only need to take the capital of a neighbour or two, and you're clear leader. Praets have to wait at least 1000 years longer before they can do that.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Again, I'm speaking of larger maps. Also, you can really kick some ass on a Pangaea or 2 continent standard and larger maps with Praets.

1000 years longer and I'll be capturing more mature capitals with more pre-developed land. Also, i'll grab a few more workers and get gold for capturing and/or razing more cities.

Granted, on smaller maps or smaller landmasses, the Quecha and chariot units are more desirable since you can pop them out very quickly and take over the whole land mass very early on allowing more strategic city placement.

But I'm normally a large or huge map player and like to crowd it.