c92nichj
Chieftain
Heard about the Kyoto treaty that only one country didn't want to sign....
Pollution Info!
- Thread starter Cunobelin Of Hippo
- Start date
ChrTh
Happy Yule!
Distinguish between people and goverments, please.
Sparrowhawk
The Builder
But isn't a democratic government elected by the will of the people?? Therefore people=government
ChrTh
Happy Yule!
Um, no. A democratic government is rule by the people without representation. The Americans do not have a democratic government, they have a republican one (please no comments on political parties). The representatives elected by the people are supposed to run government in the best interests of the nation (a la Plato), not necessarily the interests of those which elected them.
bulletsponge
Warlord
- Joined
- Oct 22, 2001
- Messages
- 229
LMAO...haha...why should America sign that treaty?...its anti-american...basically because China and India(2nd and 3rd) dont have to do anything...not to mention its a load of crap...european countries didnt sign it either...lol...In fact...only 1...yes that 1...only ONE freakin country signed it...What are we suppose to do?...sign it then do down the toilet economically...while China and India just keep on chuggin along...lol...
Sparrowhawk
The Builder
I know, I know... I just wanted to see what kind of response I'd get.
ChrTh
Happy Yule!
Originally posted by Sparrowhawk
I know, I know... I just wanted to see what kind of response I'd get.
Well, hopefully you feel it was an intelligent response
(btw, do you like the fact that I covered up the reality that I am an American by referring to them in the third person?
)[dance]
Setsuna
Polemical Poster
- Joined
- Oct 28, 2001
- Messages
- 90
Don't blame'em if they're from the EU. Their media is even less objective than the U.S.'s. Here's a visual aid.
U.S. Media
----|------
EU Media
-|---------
So when our TV is going off about the evil Republicans passing an energy bill to appease to the oil lobby, their TV is saying that the U.S. is going to purposefully cover the earth with black soot and burn down every last tree on Earth.
As for Kyoto, the Bottom line is that it punishes the U.S. for being successsful without really helping the environment (By exempting countries like China and India.)
bulletsponge
Warlord
- Joined
- Oct 22, 2001
- Messages
- 229
No ones mention that the US is the most forested country in the world...i guess that counts for absolutely nothing since the EU doent want it too...
Sparrowhawk
The Builder
Originally posted by ChrTh
Well, hopefully you feel it was an intelligent response
(btw, do you like the fact that I covered up the reality that I am an American by referring to them in the third person?
[dance]
Thoroughly impressed
Besides, I'm originally from B.C., so I know exactly how well "democratic" governments function.
redsoxrule85
Lone Red Sox fan in NJ
quote: bulletsponge
No ones mention that the US is the most forested country in the world
wasnt europe covered in a thick forest back in like ancient times, and around the renaissance and industrial ages they cleared it for feeding their evergrowing population? i always thought europe was pretty much cleared of its forests, save a few areas(the black forest)
ive never been there, so tell me if im wrong
No ones mention that the US is the most forested country in the world
wasnt europe covered in a thick forest back in like ancient times, and around the renaissance and industrial ages they cleared it for feeding their evergrowing population? i always thought europe was pretty much cleared of its forests, save a few areas(the black forest)
ive never been there, so tell me if im wrong
c92nichj
Chieftain
If you been to Sweden or Finland you'll see more forest than you'll ever care to see. It is actually part of the same forest that runs through Siebria and in over Canada & North America.
donsig
Low level intermediary
It will be below freezing tonight where I live. A little global warming sounds good right about now.
Andu Indorin
Retired Druid
Good question. I assume that they mean Steel Foundry/Factory, where iron is converted to steel to make tanks and battleships and other fun things.
Ilspana
The Unready
Umm.. an ice age isnt something that happens over night.. If many nuclear explosions occur simultaneously (like they would in a nuclear war), the resulting fallout would block out the sun and cause temperatures to drop eventually. Obviously we've not experienced multiple nuclear explosions in the same time, so the ice age they talked about couldnt happen... duh...
Does anyone else notice how the people who say environmentalists dont know what they're talking about, know nothing about the atmosphere/geology/pollution themselves? The only thing they know is what their corrupt politicians tell them about how small scale the pollution would be in comparison to other disasters that have and could occur... its sad really... that people are willing to beleive that without doing the research. just to spare their peace of mind.
Cunobelin Of Hippo
Site Pachyderm
Originally posted by Sparrowhawk
Besides, I'm originally from B.C., so I know exactly how well "democratic" governments function.
Don't get me started
Glenny-boy is on trial as we speak
Setsuna
Polemical Poster
- Joined
- Oct 28, 2001
- Messages
- 90
Here's a great post I saw at another forum.
Global Warming: Snake Oil for the 21st Century
The huxter stands on the platform, his straw hat tilted at a jaunty angle and his cane in hand. His song and dance are eerily reminiscent of Harold Hill as he waves to the curious onlookers.
"You got trouble, my friends!" he shouts, "Trouble right here on Earth! The Rainforests are vanishing at the rate of millions of acres a day, and global temperatures have gone up a whole degree in the last century alone, and the polar icecaps are melting! There's a hole in the ozone layer, and it's growing every day, and cow flatulance is building up to dangerous levels in the upper atmosphere!"
Warming to his subject, he goes for the jugular "The whales are all dying! Every nuclear power plant on the planet is a potential Chernobyll (Need I even mention 3-mile island?) I tell you, my friends, greenhouse gasses are out of control! Humans generate a billion times more greenhouse gasses now than we did two hundred years ago! All of this is verified by genu-wine scientists with actual college degrees! Your only hope is to buy my Kyoto Miracle Environmental Youth Elixir!"
A small voice near the front of the crowd mutters "Which scientists? And what are their degrees in?" but it is ignored in the furor.
Let's look at some facts before discounting that little voice.
For many years, we've been told the rainforests (AKA Jungles) are "vanishing" at some ridiculous rate, but they're still there, and not much smaller than they were before. (The truth: Jungles grow back faster than humans have been cutting them down.)
We're also told that the global average temperature has gone up in the last century. Now do we know this? We didn't have the technology or the desire to go around measuring worldwide temperatures in 1901, so how can anyone say with certainty that there's ANY sustained trend up OR down in world temperatures? In any case, we've just come out of a mini ice-age that occurred in the middle ages. When you come out of an ice age, do you expect temperatures to go up or down?
Similarly, the so-called "Ozone Hole" (which isn't a hole at all, but a slight thinning in the polar regions) is the result of satellite observations (Impossible prior to the 1970s), so how can anyone tell that it hasn't ALWAYS been there?
There was a man who made millions of dollars claiming that the polar icecaps would melt by the year 1997 and half the dry land in the world would be underwater. He sold maps of what the world was supposed to look like and books, and made a bundle before his hypothesis was revealed to be completely wrong by the passage of time. Fortunately for him, everyone basically ignored his previous predictions and he was not publicly proclaimed to be a fraud. His biggest success was inspiring the movie "waterworld" to move his deadline forward twenty years or so.
The whole Icecap thing is just silly. Even counting ALL the ice in the icecaps, sea level would rise a grand total of perhaps twenty inches worldwide (Keep in mind that the North Polar icecap would have ZERO effect on worldwide sea level if it melted, since all the ice there is floating, and displaces the same volume whether it it liquid or solid (even Archemedes knew this), and only ice that is currently ABOVE current sea level in the south pole (and not even some of that) counts.)
The latest craze in the environmental alarmist handbook (which used to claim that all the smoke generated by the industrial revolution would plunge us into an ice age) is "Greenhouse gasses"...everything from cow flatulance to cigarette smoke is touted as contributing to "Global Warming (tm)" which (if you believe the hype) will reduce the entire planet to uninhabitability quicker than you can say "Bob's your uncle."
Now let's put this in perspective. All the greenhouse gasses generated by the sum total of all human activities for an entire year fall short of the total generation of the same gasses generated by the volcanic activity on Earth in a single day, even a day that isn't particularly active.
Let me tell you a true story...Around the turn of the century (look it up if you like) a new scientific test was performed on a comet that would pass near the Earth. It had been noted that Earth would pass through the comet's tail, so some scientists used new methods to determine what the tail consisted of. Among other things, they detected traces of Cyanagen, a poisonous substance. Despite the fact that the concentration was tiny, an entire industry sprung up selling "Anti-Comet" pills and gas masks. Ill-educated and poorly informed people listened to the opportunistic prophets of doom, who separated them from their cash in a frenzy of panic and confusion caused by a profusion of snake-oil pitches.
Sound familiar? Don't trust MY word...do your own research and find out what's really going on! Read about the 10,000 page scientific report that said, basically "We don't know if there's any such thing as Global Warming going on, or if human activity has any detectable effect on global climate", of which some radical environmentallists wrote a 10 page "summary" that said "There is DEFINITELY Global warming, and we have to do something about it RIGHT NOW!"
Global Warming: Snake Oil for the 21st Century
The huxter stands on the platform, his straw hat tilted at a jaunty angle and his cane in hand. His song and dance are eerily reminiscent of Harold Hill as he waves to the curious onlookers.
"You got trouble, my friends!" he shouts, "Trouble right here on Earth! The Rainforests are vanishing at the rate of millions of acres a day, and global temperatures have gone up a whole degree in the last century alone, and the polar icecaps are melting! There's a hole in the ozone layer, and it's growing every day, and cow flatulance is building up to dangerous levels in the upper atmosphere!"
Warming to his subject, he goes for the jugular "The whales are all dying! Every nuclear power plant on the planet is a potential Chernobyll (Need I even mention 3-mile island?) I tell you, my friends, greenhouse gasses are out of control! Humans generate a billion times more greenhouse gasses now than we did two hundred years ago! All of this is verified by genu-wine scientists with actual college degrees! Your only hope is to buy my Kyoto Miracle Environmental Youth Elixir!"
A small voice near the front of the crowd mutters "Which scientists? And what are their degrees in?" but it is ignored in the furor.
Let's look at some facts before discounting that little voice.
For many years, we've been told the rainforests (AKA Jungles) are "vanishing" at some ridiculous rate, but they're still there, and not much smaller than they were before. (The truth: Jungles grow back faster than humans have been cutting them down.)
We're also told that the global average temperature has gone up in the last century. Now do we know this? We didn't have the technology or the desire to go around measuring worldwide temperatures in 1901, so how can anyone say with certainty that there's ANY sustained trend up OR down in world temperatures? In any case, we've just come out of a mini ice-age that occurred in the middle ages. When you come out of an ice age, do you expect temperatures to go up or down?
Similarly, the so-called "Ozone Hole" (which isn't a hole at all, but a slight thinning in the polar regions) is the result of satellite observations (Impossible prior to the 1970s), so how can anyone tell that it hasn't ALWAYS been there?
There was a man who made millions of dollars claiming that the polar icecaps would melt by the year 1997 and half the dry land in the world would be underwater. He sold maps of what the world was supposed to look like and books, and made a bundle before his hypothesis was revealed to be completely wrong by the passage of time. Fortunately for him, everyone basically ignored his previous predictions and he was not publicly proclaimed to be a fraud. His biggest success was inspiring the movie "waterworld" to move his deadline forward twenty years or so.
The whole Icecap thing is just silly. Even counting ALL the ice in the icecaps, sea level would rise a grand total of perhaps twenty inches worldwide (Keep in mind that the North Polar icecap would have ZERO effect on worldwide sea level if it melted, since all the ice there is floating, and displaces the same volume whether it it liquid or solid (even Archemedes knew this), and only ice that is currently ABOVE current sea level in the south pole (and not even some of that) counts.)
The latest craze in the environmental alarmist handbook (which used to claim that all the smoke generated by the industrial revolution would plunge us into an ice age) is "Greenhouse gasses"...everything from cow flatulance to cigarette smoke is touted as contributing to "Global Warming (tm)" which (if you believe the hype) will reduce the entire planet to uninhabitability quicker than you can say "Bob's your uncle."
Now let's put this in perspective. All the greenhouse gasses generated by the sum total of all human activities for an entire year fall short of the total generation of the same gasses generated by the volcanic activity on Earth in a single day, even a day that isn't particularly active.
Let me tell you a true story...Around the turn of the century (look it up if you like) a new scientific test was performed on a comet that would pass near the Earth. It had been noted that Earth would pass through the comet's tail, so some scientists used new methods to determine what the tail consisted of. Among other things, they detected traces of Cyanagen, a poisonous substance. Despite the fact that the concentration was tiny, an entire industry sprung up selling "Anti-Comet" pills and gas masks. Ill-educated and poorly informed people listened to the opportunistic prophets of doom, who separated them from their cash in a frenzy of panic and confusion caused by a profusion of snake-oil pitches.
Sound familiar? Don't trust MY word...do your own research and find out what's really going on! Read about the 10,000 page scientific report that said, basically "We don't know if there's any such thing as Global Warming going on, or if human activity has any detectable effect on global climate", of which some radical environmentallists wrote a 10 page "summary" that said "There is DEFINITELY Global warming, and we have to do something about it RIGHT NOW!"
Ilspana
The Unready
Pollution goes way past just gas emmitions. What about oils spills, and chemical plants diliberately pouring their byproducts into river systems? I suppose the rise in cancer rates in communities whos water supply is dangerously close to such chemical dumps is just a coincidence.
You can debate the greenhouse effect, i'll give you that much, but you cannot deny the effects of industrial wastedumps (at least when they're poorly run/utilized.)
I'll just close by saying while there may not be a greenhouse effect, there is pollution and it does have an effect on the population it is located near. (however small it might seem for those of you who dont live in polluted areas. Which is a pretty small ratio, considering there arent many inland bodies of water that dont have at least a small bit of pollution in them, other than resevoirs)
Peteus
All good things...
But getting back on topic - I hope that it's possible/relatively easy to get the pollution % back down to zero! Hopefully Mass Transit and Recycling can get it done, because it doesn't look like anything else actually reduces the number. In Civ II lots of things did - The Hoover Dam just about ended your need for polution control except in really big cities!
If pollution control proves hard to keep down, those fast-working Industrious Civs will have another reason to look promising!
If pollution control proves hard to keep down, those fast-working Industrious Civs will have another reason to look promising!
