PolyCast Episode 73: "More Tangenty Than Usual"

[AlphaShard]

I played the Civilization Call to Power that had that kind of trade route literally shown on the map and that ANYONE could pillage/attack it. I found that to be one of the major turn offs of the game. I hated that feature so much, as for Ammunition I really don't see the point this isn't an action game where ammunition would matter.

I am however up for having caravans back and assigning a unit to protect it.

I do think that depletion of resources does make it more realistic I just don't know how it should be handled. I certainly don't want to keep track of a number value for each of my non-renewable reasources.

As for the animals like Elephants, horse, Cow, sheep, etc. How about they move about the map after a few turns of being in one place, unless you get your Worker over that tile and start working said pasture to keep them in?

 

[DanQ]

Sorry for the double post, but I just listened to it, so now I'll put my angry face on.

No problem.

You were way, way, way too harsh on the valued resources and ammunition ideas. Your main complaint seemed to be that it would be too tedious and add too much micromanagement to the game. However, the general consensus on the ideas was to have them as implicit aspects of the game that did not require micromanagement... With the resource thread, the main idea was to have quantifiable resources and depleting resources, but again, as an implicit aspect of the game.

I argued that if you are going to go the depletion route, saying that another square will emerge within your cultural borders right away, that that wouldn't be very interesting. It would certainly be implicit, however, so I'm not totally opposed to the idea. (The thought of having a resource deplete and emerge outside your borders, yikes -- realistic, yes, but not fun.)

Similarly, the ammunition idea wouldn't require any micromanagement, so much as a tiny bit more military strategy. Ammunition and supply lines would be automated. The only thing you would have to do is protect those easily viewable and uncomplicated supply lines. [..] Realism comes largely in the sense that it would add a kind of distance to palace maintenance, whilst reducing the cost of more local wars. Unit maintenance, IIRC, doesn't really do that.

To be more specific on unit maintenance, there's Unit Cost (amount of money spent on unit upkeep) and Unit Supply (amount of money spent on units in enemy territory). In both instances, ammunition falls under this categories inherently.

On supply lines, they were discussed in the second pilot where there was some comparable discussion.

I completely agree on what you said about chess-like strategy and animals.

I am however up for having caravans back and assigning a unit to protect it.

I prefer the trade routes as managed and documented through cities directly. In addition to that, there are Great Merchants which could be used to conduct a trade mission... and they could be killed if left unprotected or insufficiently protected.

As for the animals like Elephants, horse, Cow, sheep, etc. How about they move about the map after a few turns of being in one place, unless you get your Worker over that tile and start working said pasture to keep them in?

What you're suggesting is comparable to the spreading of forests but that spread is not so guaranteed and understandably so. Given that these are resources, such an automatic spread would be quite exploitable to me -- randomizing its spread would lessen that and be more realistic. My immediate concern still on that then is with regards to parts of the map that have such resources and are not settled in the early(ier) game: the potential for some uber(ish) city sites, particularly when dealing with Elephants or Horse re: direct military impact, is heightened.

 

[Rusty Edge]

Speaking of The Research Lab...

I've noticed some ideas/comments in recent episodes have originated from the same poster on the ideas and suggestions forum. I've also noticed some negative reactions from the panel that discredited the intellect of the poster as well as the diplomacy of our distinguished panel.

C'mon, if we're elitists we should respect each other's intellects. Research Lab discussions should focus on aspects like realsim,gameplay, fun, balance, practicality, one..more..turn factor, etc. and their dynamics.

 

[AlphaShard]

Then I think you'll like this next episode better Rusty *heh*

Well Dan you've convinced me to go listen to the second pilot then, cause I always hated those visible routes that were completely vulnaruble to everything.

 

[DanQ]

Speaking of The Research Lab...

I've noticed some ideas/comments in recent episodes have originated from the same poster on the ideas and suggestions forum. I've also noticed some negative reactions from the panel that discredited the intellect of the poster as well as the diplomacy of our distinguished panel.

C'mon, if we're elitists we should respect each other's intellects. Research Lab discussions should focus on aspects like realsim,gameplay, fun, balance, practicality, one..more..turn factor, etc. and their dynamics.

While we have been admittedly harsh on a number of suggestions in the Research Lab recently, they have been on the suggestions themselves -- reflections on them -- and not the person making the suggestions. Admittedly when it is one or more of the same users putting forth such suggestions that we, as the panel, do not care for in whole or in part, it can come across as though we are picking on particular individuals. I don't feel that is the case, and I don't believe that we are being disrespectful.

When criticizing these ideas, we work to explain why in a constructive fashion: if we did not believe they were worthy of consideration, they would not be covered on the show. Yes, some of our remarks in criticism have been more aggressive than not -- that is even acknowledged at one point in the episode itself -- but on balance, I think that when taken in the greater context of our discussions, we are fair in our analyses. If we have left a perception with some in our audience otherwise, it was not our intent and hope that at least is accepted.

Well Dan you've convinced me to go listen to the second pilot then, cause I always hated those visible routes that were completely vulnaruble to everything.

 

[Camikaze]

Perhaps I'm slightly miffed (although not annoyed- I still enjoyed the discussion) that the negative aspects of the ideas seem to be discussed more than the positive aspects. And also, it seemed to me that the discussion was more on preconceived thoughts on the idea and first impressions of the OP than on what is dismissed or expanded upon within the threads discussed.

I argued that if you are going to go the depletion route, saying that another square will emerge within your cultural borders right away, that that wouldn't be very interesting. It would certainly be implicit, however, so I'm not totally opposed to the idea. (The thought of having a resource deplete and emerge outside your borders, yikes -- realistic, yes, but not fun.)

I agree with this. But, IIRC, it was also dismissed within the thread. Perhaps it would be better to discuss the potential of the idea along the lines of what has been posted in the thread, rather than focus so much on the bad suggestions (such as this one) that have been made, and then dismissed. It was really only a small aspect tacked onto the end of the depletion idea. Resource depletion would function the same with or without it. The difference is in what happens after the resources are depleted. My thought on the discussion of it were that instead of focusing on the idea of resource depletion itself, which was the major idea, discussion was focused a bit too much on the dismissed and subsidiary idea, and how bad it was.

Basically, in Ideas & Suggestions, a lot of ideas are thrown around for discussion and to see if they would work. And thus, a lot of these ideas are bad. My thoughts are that in Polycast, instead of focusing on the bad aspects of ideas, the good and conceivable aspects of them could be focused on. But I enjoy listening to the discussion anyway, even if I don't agree.

To be more specific on unit maintenance, there's Unit Cost (amount of money spent on unit upkeep) and Unit Supply (amount of money spent on units in enemy territory). In both instances, ammunition falls under this categories inherently.

To , the idea is to transform Unit Supply into a more variable cost, dependent upon distance, which is more realistic. Additionally as part of the idea is supply lines (not supply units), for realism and to enhance war in civ (by ridding it of simple SoDs, and adding second lines of defence to protect your supply). It is fun, in that you always have something to defend- you don't just click on a city and attack. You have to leave a unit or two behind to prevent that surprise attack on your supply lines.

On supply lines, they were discussed in the second pilot where there was some comparable discussion.

The key difference between the current idea and this discussion is that the current idea is focused around supply lines without units, and that that discussion was not counting the possibility of not having units. Lines would be visible to you (either through a little animation of a line of caravans, or though a toggle-able layer), but would occur automatically, taking the shortest route near your units from your borders to your invading force(s). That doesn't really require any micromanagement, so it wouldn't be tedious or un-fun.

 

[AlphaShard]

Perhaps I'm slightly miffed (although not annoyed- I still enjoyed the discussion) that the negative aspects of the ideas seem to be discussed more than the positive aspects. And also, it seemed to me that the discussion was more on preconceived thoughts on the idea and first impressions of the OP than on what is dismissed or expanded upon within the threads discussed.

I guess the problem can occur when the people talking about the idea don't see the positive or feel the negative aspects would out wiegh the positive. It may help in that case to get the person who created said thread if they feel passionate about it. I know they did this for one poster who emailed in twice about realism and they used a voice simulator. So definatly write to them or even just ask to be on.

BTW Dan I want to know what voice simulator you used!!

The key difference between the current idea and this discussion is that the current idea is focused around supply lines without units, and that that discussion was not counting the possibility of not having units. Lines would be visible to you (either through a little animation of a line of caravans, or though a toggle-able layer), but would occur automatically, taking the shortest route near your units from your borders to your invading force(s). That doesn't really require any micromanagement, so it wouldn't be tedious or un-fun.

Those lines are EXACTLY what I was talking about in Civ Call to Power. I would create a trade route having that visiable line to a city only two turns later a barb would show up, or even a Civ wasn't friendly with, would come by and pillage it. So bye bye line and .

 

[DanQ]

... the negative aspects of the ideas seem to be discussed more than the positive aspects. And also, it seemed to me that the discussion was more on preconceived thoughts on the idea and first impressions of the OP than on what is dismissed or expanded upon within the threads discussed.

The reason for the focus on the opening post was because quantifiable resources had been discussed previously (Episode 17) on the show. Similarly, resource obsolescence was discussed only briefly here as it too was a topic of earlier consideration (Episode 07). (See more on this generally speaking below.)

Basically, in Ideas & Suggestions, a lot of ideas are thrown around for discussion and to see if they would work. And thus, a lot of these ideas are bad. My thoughts are that in Polycast, instead of focusing on the bad aspects of ideas, the good and conceivable aspects of them could be focused on.

Not all ideas that have been discussed in the Research Lab on the show to date have been negatively viewed by the co-hosts of the episode they were covered on. A balance between positive and negative reactions to such ideas is always sought, but until the discussion comes about it's not always clear what the consensus of the panel will be (if any).

But I enjoy listening to the discussion anyway, even if I don't agree.

To , the idea is to transform Unit Supply into a more variable cost, dependent upon distance, which is more realistic.

Distance-wise, it is already in effect in an 'absolute' way when it comes to units being in enemy territory. The thought of modifying that to be distance-based in a more scaled way, whether at war/peace with the nation your units are in or whether they're beside your palace or at the most distant reaches of your far-flung empire, has merit, worthy of game testing and in turn requisite balancing. Were it to come about, I would see it becoming another variable under Unit Cost/Unit Maintenance and be labeled as such.

The key difference between the current idea and this discussion is that the current idea is focused around supply lines without units, and that that discussion was not counting the possibility of not having units.

Two reasons for focusing on the initial ideas in this and the couple of other threads discussed in question: opening post focus and overlap.

Three first-season topics on PolyCast have been re-visited already this current season, identifiable by a quick glance or search under the label "redux". I initiated this primarily in recognition of changes brought about post-Beyond the Sword, and its subsequent patches, and secondarily changes in panelist gameplay. When such follow-ups would be prompted by a subsequent post in a thread to its opening post, it's less likely to get noticed: topics for discussion are chosen based on the latter and its title. Such 'subsequents' (made by shortly before an episode's recording) more often than not get noted, but if its topic has been previously discussed on the show, its mention and discussion is minimized.

We are most welcome to topic suggestions -- a dedicated thread on Apolyton for that has been linked to from the show's website since last February -- which could also be made in response to an episode. This most certainly includes re-visiting older topics if and where one feels that there is one or more substantial differences to be considered in follow-up... just specify.

It may help in that case to get the person who created said thread if they feel passionate about it. I know they did this for one poster who emailed in twice about realism and they used a voice simulator. So definatly write to them or even just ask to be on.

After reading and responding to both of that person's emails on the show (with voice simulator for him as Scott notes), he was invited to and did guest on a later episode.

Even if one doesn't want to guest, writing or even calling into the show is without a doubt the prime way of getting a response 'from' if not on the show.

BTW Dan I want to know what voice simulator you used!!

It's name and address are included in the credits for when it has been used to date: SpokenText. (I have not used the service since sometime before it went to a pay-for only model.)

 

[AlphaShard]

Ah that sucks I was hoping it was a downloadable program that you could type text into any time you wanted like Dr. Sbaitso or Bonzi.

 

[DanQ]

Ah that sucks I was hoping it was a downloadable program that you could type text into any time you wanted like Dr. Sbaitso or Bonzi.

Oh, nostalgia trip! I so remember Dr. Sbaitso... loved it when it was in its prime (perhaps a generous word in hindsight, but still ).

 

[TheDS]

Hey! Cool to be in another episode so soon.

Took a while to get to my speaking part... Is that what you meant by "language barrier", Rusty?

As for the animals like Elephants, horse, Cow, sheep, etc. How about they move about the map after a few turns of being in one place, unless you get your Worker over that tile and start working said pasture to keep them in?

What you're suggesting is comparable to the spreading of forests but that spread is not so guaranteed and understandably so. Given that these are resources, such an automatic spread would be quite exploitable to me -- randomizing its spread would lessen that and be more realistic. My immediate concern still on that then is with regards to parts of the map that have such resources and are not settled in the early(ier) game: the potential for some uber(ish) city sites, particularly when dealing with Elephants or Horse re: direct military impact, is heightened.

No, Dan, I think he's saying they MOVE a square, not SPREAD.

If we kept picking ideas we liked [instead of "stupid ideas", as Cartimandua said] we'd be like 'I agree', 'K'. [followed by the others agreeing it would be boring]

Ah, so that explains why none of my suggestion topics ever got reviewed! (Or were they and I just never heard about it? It's been a while since I posted them. Hmmm, now I wonder if any of my other stuff got reviewed and I never knew!)

I didn't have any problem with the audio quality in this one. A few imperfections are to be expected when you use internet telephony.


Oh, hey, I've got a funny suggestion for you: In each episode, when Mak is introducing herself, play one of the (many, apparently) clips of me mispronouncing her name instead!

Watch out for zombies!

 

[AlphaShard]

Your right DS I did mean migrate and move to another square. So you have to in effect capture the herd as it's roving the land without it turning into a Benny Hill sketch.

I feel so bad I mispronounced her name as well after spending time going over their names in my head so I wouldn't mess them up. I mean no one messes up DanQ's name it's like barely two syllables, so he's lucky.

 

[Grey Fox]

I commented on the weplayciv site, but I'll add my last comment here as well.

As to experienced units, I've never gotten that high in Civ4, but I have made a city that produces 20-26 xp units. 20xp with charismatic and 26 without, for instant lvl 6 units. That's pretty sweet, you can make an army of Commando units, which are deadly. And become even more so if your target has railroads. Haha that's such a comical thought. Consider, a hostile army covertly using the enemy's trains.

 

[Rusty Edge]

I commented on the weplayciv site, but I'll add my last comment here as well.

As to experienced units, I've never gotten that high in Civ4, but I have made a city that produces 20-26 xp units. 20xp with charismatic and 26 without, for instant lvl 6 units. That's pretty sweet, you can make an army of Commando units, which are deadly. And become even more so if your target has railroads. Haha that's such a comical thought. Consider, a hostile army covertly using the enemy's trains.

Ever seen the WWII Movie "Von Ryan's Express"? Starring Frank Sinatra, Trevor Howard and James Mason?

 

[DanQ]

I mean no one messes up DanQ's name it's like barely two syllables, so he's lucky.

And boring.

Hey! Cool to be in another episode so soon.

Ah, so that explains why none of my suggestion topics ever got reviewed! (Or were they and I just never heard about it? It's been a while since I posted them. Hmmm, now I wonder if any of my other stuff got reviewed and I never knew!)

The archives await (Also, season one).

Oh, hey, I've got a funny suggestion for you: In each episode, when Mak is introducing herself, play one of the (many, apparently) clips of me mispronouncing her name instead!

Your right DS I did mean migrate and move to another square. So you have to in effect capture the herd as it's roving the land without it turning into a Benny Hill sketch.

Ah, kind of a "catch 'em if you can" to so speak. Would you see the movement to a particular adjacent tile being through some sort of 'random' assignment (with consideration of what terrain is on those tiles, including if any are applicable)?

I feel so bad I mispronounced her name as well after spending time going over their names in my head so I wouldn't mess them up.

No reason to feel bad at all. I know Maki takes no offense; in fact, she probably gets more enjoyment out of the mispronunciations of her username than the rest of us regulars combined.

 

[Rusty Edge]

Hey! Cool to be in another episode so soon.

Took a while to get to my speaking part... Is that what you meant by "language barrier", Rusty?

Nah, just the time it takes for my brain to adjust to vowel shifts of regional dialects.
You did very well.

I'm 11th-generation Allegheny ( if you don't count the Iroquois ancestry ), went to school in the Appalachians, and moved to America's Dairyland to marry a cheesehead.

More than once I've tried to order "salmon" , and the waitress thought I said "sam' tin' " (how the local scandanavian descendents pronounce "same thing" ). My sister-in-law lives in Minnesota, and I couldn't even understand her on the phone when I first met her. I don't pretend to be superior, I'm a joke .

 

[TheDS]

Dang, I was hoping for something more like specific ep#s. Hey, your first season list isn't nearly as pretty and readable as the lists for seasons 2 and 3. (And I don't see anything in the topics list that looks like one of my topics.)

@ Rusty: There is no "T" in "salmon", so no wonder she couldn't understand you! I mostly have a midwestern accent, having grown up in Indiana, but I've also lived in Mississippi and I pick up the drawl real easy when I go through the south. On those rare occasions I've been to/through Boston, NYC, and the Lake Superior region, I pick up those accents too, but I don't hold them as long. Oh, and a lot of New Yorkers live in my area in Florida (as snowbirds) so I sometimes pick that up when I'm home, too. It all adds up to an inconsistent dialect that confuses most people as to where I'm from.

@ AlphaShard: I was going to pronounce his name as a single syllable - pronouncing it like "dank" - but after screwing up Mak's name for real, I figured the humor would be lost.

We ARE gonna hafta change Mak's name. When President Kennedy was introducing the "RS-71 Blackbird", he mispronounced it as "SR-71", and so they promptly renamed it. If Mak is even half as polite as the Air Force, she'll change it. Come on, girlfriend, you don't want people to think you're as rude and snobby as the Air Force, do ya?

 

[DanQ]

Dang, I was hoping for something more like specific ep#s.

Follow the first season promo discussion links, and those threads on Apolyton reference episode numbers indirectly.

Hey, your first season list isn't nearly as pretty and readable as the lists for seasons 2 and 3.

That is because what you see there inherited much of its data from the original design of the PolyCast website. Modifying it to align with the current format would have required some considerable effort, and most of it tedious; therefore, I worked to come to a balance between the two.

(And I don't see anything in the topics list that looks like one of my topics.)

Ah 'k.

 

[AlphaShard]

@ AlphaShard: I was going to pronounce his name as a single syllable - pronouncing it like "dank" - but after screwing up Mak's name for real, I figured the humor would be lost.

You'd have to almost add letters or mess up his last name but then that might be crossing a line. *heh*

We ARE gonna hafta change Mak's name. When President Kennedy was introducing the "RS-71 Blackbird", he mispronounced it as "SR-71", and so they promptly renamed it. If Mak is even half as polite as the Air Force, she'll change it. Come on, girlfriend, you don't want people to think you're as rude and snobby as the Air Force, do ya?

No no no, See if it was Bush or Dan Quayle the media and people in general would lay into them like no tomorrow. With Kennedy it's like "No sir you didn't mispronounce it, we misspelled it, it was our bad"

Besides I like the Makalua name it reminds me of Kahlua.

 

[Rusty Edge]

Then I think you'll like this next episode better Rusty *heh*

Thanks for the "heads up".

While we have been admittedly harsh on a number of suggestions in the Research Lab recently, they have been on the suggestions themselves -- reflections on them -- and not the person making the suggestions. Admittedly when it is one or more of the same users putting forth such suggestions that we, as the panel, do not care for in whole or in part, it can come across as though we are picking on particular individuals. I don't feel that is the case, and I don't believe that we are being disrespectful.

When criticizing these ideas, we work to explain why in a constructive fashion: if we did not believe they were worthy of consideration, they would not be covered on the show. Yes, some of our remarks in criticism have been more aggressive than not -- that is even acknowledged at one point in the episode itself -- but on balance, I think that when taken in the greater context of our discussions, we are fair in our analyses. If we have left a perception with some in our audience otherwise, it was not our intent and hope that at least is accepted.

This deserves further explanation. I brought this to your attention because I trust that neither host, nor panel nor guests intended to pick on anyone. While I believe the discussion turned disrespectful, I also believe it was unintentional.The idea was discussed well up to a point.

I appreciate your efforts to keep the crew on track, and I heartily enjoyed "Similization V", I thought it was the highpoint of the show, and you probably wouldn't have reached that moment without the free exchange of ideas. Heavy handed moderating would have ended the discussion on the topic. I guess the answer lies in a little more editing.

This is where I would draw the line- I think that terms like 'dumb', 'stupid', 'what were they thinking?', & 'did they think about this?' ,' use their head?'etc. are perfect in the context of discussing the A.I. . Sometimes it lacks sense in it's behavior, but the fact that we talk about workers and governors and leaders as if they were living, thinking people is really a compliment to the game designers and programmers.

On the other hand, having our ideas discused in those terms feels like an insult to ourselves. We've all had teachers or parents or supervisors who have done this to us in our lives. We know how it feels to enthusiastically put forth an idea, only to have it dismissed & put down in a way that reflects on our mentallity. Words like 'stupid' do that. In my experience, people on internet forums are smarter on the whole than people in real life. I think they deserve to be treated with the same courtesy and respect you'd give them on the forums, or if they were a live guest on the show.

Having frequented this forum long before I joined it, I can appreciate that a lot of these more micromanagement ideas are born from things like pride in a person's heritage. A Russian might be justifiably proud of the way that his people threw back Napoleon and Hitler even though they'd both rolled over most all of Europe, but that's hard to re-create in game terms without introducing supply... which means micromanagement.

I appreciate that micromanagement is nowhere on the panel's One..More..Turn.. slider,
and 5% on mine ( I play a mod with 5% increments, increasingly useful as the game goes on ) , but words like stupid are a poor shorthand for more micromanagement, when we all know that micromangement takes brainpower. A person that likes micromanagement could be boring, but they probably aren't stupid. "Not fun" would be preferable as a term.

IMRAN- I think I smell micromanagement

CARTIMANDUA- Cool! I'll pick cathair off of the couch while you guys do that!

IMRAN- Hey wait! Can I help you out on the couch?

CARTIMANDUA - No! Don't talk. Just don't talk.

MAKI- Eh. I need a refill before we even start...

DAN- Lulabye----- and goodni---ght...

MAKI - WE HAVE A NO SINGING RULE !!!

@ Rusty: There is no "T" in "salmon", so no wonder she couldn't understand you! I mostly have a midwestern accent, having grown up in Indiana, but I've also lived in Mississippi and I pick up the drawl real easy when I go through the south. On those rare occasions I've been to/through Boston, NYC, and the Lake Superior region, I pick up those accents too, but I don't hold them as long. Oh, and a lot of New Yorkers live in my area in Florida (as snowbirds) so I sometimes pick that up when I'm home, too. It all adds up to an inconsistent dialect that confuses most people as to where I'm from.

We ARE gonna hafta change Mak's name. When President Kennedy was introducing the "RS-71 Blackbird", he mispronounced it as "SR-71", and so they promptly renamed it. If Mak is even half as polite as the Air Force, she'll change it. Come on, girlfriend, you don't want people to think you're as rude and snobby as the Air Force, do ya?

Interesting stories.