Pope Chokonut the Indifferent

[Mighty Dwaarf]

Difference tile wise between Jumbo site and grass hill site is a trade between a grassland and a grassland hill. With the hill site having the extra hill. The plains hill site loses another hill and rice for a grassland and lake. I think is straight choice between Jumbo and forested hill. Forested hill site has more production potential and just enough food to be productive. Jumbo site has less production but still has 4 hills and will therfore have slightly more food thus growth.
The Jumbo site will give us an extra turn start and save a forest to chop. IIRC we will also keep the two hammers in city site spot too. Is the forested hill worth the extra turn

 

[Mighty Dwaarf]

I still think we should keep to worker first to get food improvements up to max growth to size 3or4.

 

[cubbiesin08]

Isn't the difference 2 hills or am I missing something? I would still be in favor of production and the benefit in the long haul vs. immediate return. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Ozbenno]

If you get the extra hammer, that makes settling on the jumbos more appealing. Can someone confirm this?

So let's have a final vote on where to settle, where the settler is now, 1W, 1SW or somewhere else. I'll start playing once there is a clear favourite.

Agriculture/worker anyone?

 

[GreyFox]

Here are the difference:

If we settle on the spot (brown): we get only pigs=+3F and cows=+1F, which means a surplus of +4F. Given each ivory camp is -1F, we would be hardpressed for growth later if we hope to work on the camps. It does have 2 more grassland and 1 more lake, making it a all-rounder.

Difference between settling 1W (blue) and ISW (purple):

- blue = 1 grassland, 1 grassland forest, 1 grassland hill, 1 plains, and 1 plains hill river.

- purple = 1 plains hill, 3 grassland hills, and 1 grassland river.

So, we are effectively trading 1 grassland and 1 plains in blue for 2 grassland hills in purple -- classical production vs commerce tradeoff.

I love food and production, so vote for 1 SW .

 

[Mighty Dwaarf]

If we settle purple we have the three grassland hills in very south. If we settle blue we have two grassland hills 2N and 1S (Where Purple would settle). So the trade off is only one grassland hill not two. I have checked and we do get 2H if we settle on Jumbo rather than 1H for a GH.


I played a couple of tests last night I managed to get Henge and Oracle both times with chance to settle 1 or 2 more cities in each. I took Machinery from Oracle about 700BC this was probably a bit lucky to get it that late. However the time to research MC meant that didnt have time to research Writing and techs for Mono which are needed for Theo. Second time I just settled for taking MC from Oracle much earlier and managed to be able to bulb Theo around 700BC. Both were pretty poor to average starts. No happy or sci bonus. I think best to go for MC from Oracle and use Gp to bulb Theo. I started Ag AH Mining and worker both times. Worker should finish farm just as AH comes in.

 

[GreyFox]

Oh, right, you are right (somehow, in my warped mind, ivory camp and grassland hill are treated as equal ).

so it is now trading 1 grassland and 1 plains for 1 grassland hill and 1 ivory camp.

Seems pretty balanced trade off to me. I am happy with settling either way.

As to build research order, I think hunting+agr+worker first should be the best opening move (the order of hunting and agr doesn't really matter, both should be done by the time the worker moves out).

-

 

[McArine]

I've allways liked settling on a 2 hammer spot. So my vote goes to the elephant spot.

 

[ianw1610]

I'm fine with settling on any 2-hammer spot.

As for the Tech order, how about (provisionally) something like Hun-AH-Poly-Priest-Ag-Pot-Min-BW and then MC from Oracle?? Thinking that Pottery before BW will be preferable as we are short of commerce, not hammers, and Hunting before Agriculture will be preferable, as we need to build Camps, not Farms (maybe???)

 

[mc-red]

I'll vote for the 2h/dumbo spot too, but happy with any choice. Worker first.

Noice dot map greyfox.

I see both views from mighty and ianw but can't really make a firm choice.

I'll tentatively vote for mighty's suggestion AG-AH-Min so worker farms then pastures.
Hunting can come somewhere after before we are ready to camp and/or hit happy cap.

Ianw I am guessing you prefer the two camps as opposed to the farm first because of the extra 2 commerce and 6 hammers?
Allowing us to trade slower growth to size four for knocking out poly and priest before getting to the farm as well has having more production (earlier settler?) during this phase.
I have never run a test before (I'm the noob on the team) but maybe will try today. No need to wait for me though i'll go with consensus.

Ok with mid term goal of MC from oracle and bulb of theo.

On pottery I definately see the lack of commerce but with no riverside grass can't see a cottage going down before farm, pastures, camps, mines. More likely will be needed for second city and the question is
with imperialistic how soon do we want to get it out.

edit:
Just noticed GreyFox going for ag-hunting before ah
so lets say at size two we get 5F+1C+3H from 1 camp and rice farm, 1 camp + cows is 4F+6H+2C and farm+cows is 7F+1C+3H
with caveat being camp+farm will be up faster I think and camp plus cows will be up at the slowest (edit: I was wrong).

I did test and camp+farm will beat cows+farm by 4 turns.
edit 2:
I think after reading cubbies and Ianw reply I will take the faster growth of cows+farm over camp and farm.

 

[cubbiesin08]

I'll vote for settling on dumbo as well. I also like playing it a little safer and taking MC with Oracle and using GP for theology.

In terms of tiles being worked at the start - I'm wondering at what size are we going to try and get out our 1st settler? At pop 2 or 3 - and at what turn do we finish the settler given tiles worked? If we do the camp+farm we've only got 8 (5F+3H) counting, but with cows+farm we've got 10 (7F+3H) - does that offset the 4 turns we're losing so that we get the settler done at the same point? I'm currently at work so I can't test this out.

 

[ianw1610]

Ianw I am guessing you prefer the two camps as opposed to the farm first because of the extra 2 commerce and 6 hammers?

The reasoning for my listed order of technologies was that I was picturing a size 5 city, settled in place (no 1W move to the Ivory). The Pig would be worked during the growth phase. At size 5, the 5 tiles to be worked would comprise 2 riverside cottages - 2S1E and 1N2E (although these would be lost if we moved to the Ivory) - as well as 1 cow pasture, 1 ivory camp and 1 mined Plains Hill. Total (I think...) 10 food, 12 hammers, 8 commerce (plus future cottage growth commerce).

 

[mc-red]

The reasoning for my listed order of technologies was that I was picturing a size 5 city, settled in place (no 1W move to the Ivory). The Pig would be worked during the growth phase. At size 5, the 5 tiles to be worked would comprise 2 riverside cottages - 2S1E and 1N2E (although these would be lost if we moved to the Ivory) - as well as 1 cow pasture, 1 ivory camp and 1 mined Plains Hill. Total (I think...) 10 food, 12 hammers, 8 commerce (plus future cottage growth commerce).

Got it.
In that case I'm definately voting for ag->ah seems to get us off to a good start

 

[mc-red]

I'm currently at work so I can't test this out.

Wow isn't it pretty early over there for work.

Techincally, I am supposed to be working but I end up thinking about civ and reading my favourite blogs.

I left the US a few years ago because my sister has MS and I came back and enrolled in a PhD program the UK.
I don't know why I did that at this stage in my life. I will do anything but work on my PhD.

hoo ha

 

[cubbiesin08]

I get to work around 6:30AM - but I get to leave around 3:30PM. Plus, by getting to work that early, no one else is really in so I can spend the first few hours "researching the internet"...

 

[Mighty Dwaarf]

Im going to be away all weekend so going to miss any further discussion on first turnset. So as it stands my vote is to go Ag AH first to enable food tiles to be worked to get to happy cap asap. Build wise worker then stonehenge whilst growing. If we are confident of getting Henge and have hit good size I am happy to interrupt Henge to get settler out for second city and finish henge later. If neede we can interrupt for warrior build too.

 

[Ozbenno]

Well there appears to be a majority view on settling on the Jumbos so...

What was less clear was the starting techs etc.

Agriculture is first in any case, we'll see after that. We're building a worker and then warrior.

We pop Fishing. Great

We then get some gold and discover the sea (and a lion). Our second city should be coastal (for our navy) or floodplains (for a science city).

Agriculture comes in and I muse about Mining, Hunting and Animal Husbandry.

Mining allows for increased production, Hunting gives production and a bit of commerce and decreases the cost of Animal Husbandry, which iteself gives food and production. If we go AH, our worker will have finished the rice farm before we complete, so we go Hunting as we can farm rice, camp a jumbo and then pasture cows.

Buddhism is FIADL.

Worker --> Warrior

I play 16 turns, as Hunting comes in. Animal Husbandry is selected but no beakers.

BTW, researching Hunting has unlocked the jumbos, so we get the extra happy without having to road one up.

I pop a map last turn as well, here are our lands.

There is gold up and down the coast but no great land to go with it. There are floodplains to our SE, which may be better for second city. There are a couple of huts here as well.

Our warrior is finished in 5 turns. We could go warrior/settler after this and be at size 3 (we need an escort as barbs are on remember).

So the million dollar questions are, builds and research and next city??

I think warrior (being built now)/warrior/settler for builds and Animal Husbandry/Mining for research. I don't see where we can use cottage at the moment (except on the floodplains for the next city) so I think Wheel/Pottery can wait. Should we consider building Stonehenge after the settler?

As for next city, I think the floodplains (which need to be explored further) are the better option.

In general it is better to play to a logical stopping point rather than a prescribed number of turns. We'll determine the roster order by who gets in first with the got it in the first time around. Whoever grabs it can play for 10-15 turns but wait for everyones thoughts before playing.

 

[mc-red]

Nice. Another pre-calendar happy. Size 7 capital working riverside plain hill, 5 bonus tiles and maybe a lake now we have fishing will be quite a city. Not only hammers some commerce as well.
FP's look interesting.
North near the gold hill gives plains cows, gold, and two riverside grasslands. Overall not much more it seems but early on would be quite useful with the gold bringing immediate commerce.
Will look again tomorrow as it is late here.

 

[GreyFox]

Nice popping fishes ... seems like one way or another, the game has a way of granting us one of our wishes

Well, I still think Hunting+Agr is the best opening move, because of the commerce from ivory. I am a bit surprised though that we get the worker out faster than we can tech Hunting +Agr, must be due to the extra hammer from the ivory city.

Offhand, since we have fishing, the best next city might be the crabs and gold towards the SW, but I do have a tingling intuition that metals will be found to the east of our ivory capitol (simply because we settled two west of our starting location, and there is no visible resources to the east).

Tech-wise, we need to go mining and BW pretty soon to enable mining the hills, so I suggest AH then Mining and BW. Wheel and Pottery can indeed wait a while. Production wise, I am fine with warrior->settler-> warrior->stonehedge, the settler obviously should be swapped in at a point when we get the pasture up.

I am not grabbing the save now since I am only 30% for CTON (which is already close to 40hrs). So someone else please be my guest.

-

 

[ianw1610]

I think warrior (being built now)/warrior/settler for builds and Animal Husbandry/Mining for research. I don't see where we can use cottage at the moment (except on the floodplains for the next city) so I think Wheel/Pottery can wait. Should we consider building Stonehenge after the settler?

Sounds good to me!