Possible Buggy combat resoloution. (Needs its own thread instaead of 5 or six others)

[Moulton]

Unless they have done something really wierd with teh random generator it should perform exactly the same on any system. It is just math.
Maybe they have skewed it so that it doesn't produce a bell curve, but two peaks, high and low.
Now obviously something is not the same everywhere.
I have not experienced had a serious problem, but do not doubt that it happens.
My analysis says it is in the hp stats. A battleship unit or tank should have more hit points than the spearman.
I would love to see your bic when you are done... Is there some way to modify hit points besides the regular/vet/elite growth?
You can make the armor in a mech unit high, and still take an occasional hit, and die. I tried that.
Perhaps as simple as make vet 2 points higher and elite 3 or 4.
However, if that applies to all eras, then it becomes impossible for a regular archer to defeat an elite spearman.
also, I have noticed that the unit heals two points when promoted to vet--as advertised. but does not heal when moving to elite. It is a real pain to watch a unit stand against an onslaught, go up to vet and heal, go up to elite, with only one hit point leftr, and die.

 

[AUDoc]

I was Babylon on monarch level, in the early industrial age and 2nd in points. I begin to notice a buildup of English swordsmen around Uruk. Now, I had four riflemen and a knight in Uruk, so normally I wouldn't have worried, but I had just gotten done reading these posts on combat .

I contacted Elizabeth and dealed for a MPP, I had to give her Medicine which wasn't a big deal because it doesn't give her any units or anything and everybody else already had it. I've used this trick before when I didn't want a war, and the AI normally turns around and goes home, but not this time.

England declares war on me as soon as I hit Enter. I forgot to mention all my troops in Uruk were average quality (I always forget to build barracks, on easier levels I normally have Sun Tzu's). Atleast 15 swordmen and 5 or 6 archers attack Uruk... and are mowed down. Now I have 3 Elite riflemen, 1 veteran riflemen, and the knight didn't even get into a fight. Plus, my city workers can't get anything out of my northern fields because of all the dead bodies, I hear they make good fertilizer, though.

What a crock... I wanted something weird to happen so I could get on here and complain with the rest of you. So I go on the offensive, thinking for sure my 7 cavalry and 3 knights would be slaughtered by the conscript rifleman, veteran pikeman, and average quality cavalry defending Birmingham. No such luck, I take the city without losing a single unit.

What's going on with this screwy combat system???

 

[Eliezar]

I think the biggest problem is exageration in this whole thing.

However, I also could swear that there is some momentum code. It often seems that if my first attacker loses to a defender then I might have 3 or 4 losses, but if the first attacker wins I tend to roll over the enemy. But the system is probably just straight up.

I personally have liked the system and the results it gives, but I haven't had 10 tanks attack 1 conscript spearman that was down to 1 hp and lose all 10 of them.

Eliezar

 

[Zachriel]

Don't know if there is a bug in the random number generator, but it should even out. In other words, you should win some incredible battles as often as you lose them, if all other factors are the same. On the other hand, if you keep attacking fortified units in cities with weak forces, you will lose.

I have not noticed any problem in any of my games.

With the multiple Caravels v. Battleship situation, of course, a stack of ships is the proper solution. Then each Caravel will have to attack a different unit. Nearly every Caravel will be destoryed, as expected.

If you leave your Destroyer vulnerable (U.S.S. Cole), or don't take the barbarians seriously (Rome v. Spartacus), or if you fall for a deception (Greeks v. Trojans), or if you have bad luck (your B2 crashes in the Indian Ocean), then you could suffer severe losses.

 

[Gruntboy]

Random numbers - computer generated "random" numbers aren't random. They have a pattern. I have a huge problem with this - think of the possible religous significance of every battle you ever fight being pre-determined.....

Bug - I dislike the use of the word bug to describe something that the user is upset with. A bug is a program error or a conflict. The civ3 combat system is designed to work like this. It may be crap but it is not a bug.

History - The very people decrying those who don't give a monkeys about the combat system use History as the basis for their gripe - "spearmen can't kill tanks"... in reality/History whatever. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot. This isn't History, its a game, hence...

Combat resolution: Tank Vs Spearman - Using the rather helpful spreadsheet posted on the index page, I came up with this:

Regular Tank (A16) Vs regular spearman (D2) garrisoned (+25%)in city/walled town (+50%) on plains (+10%).

= 16 / (16+2+ (2*0.1+0.5+0.25))
= 81.2%

Each round the tank has almost 20% (18.8%) chance of taking a hit from the spearman. With pre-seeded rolls the spearman could easily take out the tank. Though the true probability is, I believe (and its some time since I studied maths) =(18.8/100)*(18.8/100)*(18.8/100) or 0.7%.

 

[Gruntboy]

In the above example your tank has only a 53.6% chance of coming away victrious *unscathed*. Imagine a more defensible position: Tank Vs Spearman garrision in metropolis on hills behind a river. Not too whacky considering the AI penchant for rapid city development.

= 16 / (16+2+ (2(1+0.5+0.25+0.25)
= 72.7%

The spearman has a greater than 1 in 4 chance of damaging the tank each round and 2% chance of destroying the tank outright.

Clearly these numbers will cause more discomfort when facing veteran defenders (likely if they've been around a while - they are spearmen ) or more advanced troops/less advanced attackers. How does a legion/swordman fare against the same old spearman?

Example 1
=3/(3+2+ (2(0.1+0.5+0.25))
=44.8% chance sword hits spearman
9% chance decisive victory for swordsman.

Example 2
=3/(3+2+ (2(1+0.5+0.25+0.25)
=33.3% chance sword hits spearman
3.7% chance decisive victory for swordsman.

So what are the lessons to be learnt from this? If you don't like these numbers, you can edit the A/D values. There are plenty of threads that talk about doing this.

If you can live with the game "as is" (for whatever tripped out Historical reason you want, or if you see it as a game - "How come bishops can move on diagonals, I didn't think bishops even engaged in combat" ) then there are even clearer deductions we can make about civ3 combat.

Civ3 combat
There is a weighting towards the defense (there are *no* offensive bonuses). Consider two identical units, warriors (A1/D1), facing each other on a plain. The 10% bonus to defense on the plain means the attacker loses out (albeit marginally). Consider this when waging war. Be defensive. Use a "defensive-offensive" (move up and make them attack you). Don't fight at all, use diplomacy. Take a passive/defensive role and wait for others to attack you.

When directly attacking you can stack the odds in your favour. High A helps (which means you need the best technology). Use veterans and elites (use barracks always, you may want to fight battles before conducting sieges to gain elite troops). Bombard to reduce the number of rounds you have to fight to kill a unit, or to reduce city size (pillaging and starvation helps). Massive odds are required to attack. Example 1 for our swordsman might require attacking odds of 10-1 to bludgeon through if you're unlucky. Even using a tank, a backup unit might be helpful - if only to defend against counter-attack. Don't attack across rivers. Bypass strongholds on good defensive terrain. Use the alternative strategies in other threads (bombing capital road systems, camp out on strategic resources etc.). If you can't maintain odds of 10-1, you can at least stop that 1 from being reinforced.

Concentrate, don't dissipate. If you try to achieve everyting you may end up doing nothing.

If you do all this, you may not have to face such terrible odds when attacking cities. You may not have to face the annoying spearman knocking out your tanks.

If the Historical oddity bugs you, you can always edit the rules.

 

[Zachriel]

Historically, defense has nearly always had the advantage. Even the great armor victory of the Germans over the French in 1940 was not a direct assault on fortified infantry positions, but an end-round, cutting off the infantry from support.

Don't forget this important lesson. Do not fight the enemy on their terms. If they won't fight, then attack their infrastructure. At some point they will have to leave their bunkers and counter-attack, then you can destory them.

 

[Gruntboy]

I don't want to get into any Historical debates Zachariel - had too many in my short time here already.

But...

I think the dominance of offense/defense in History is cyclical. Your example is a broad reflection of this.

Regarding 1940, yes the popularly held belief is that the Germans went around the Maginot line. This is only part true. The main German thrust did go through the Ardennes, bypassing the line which ended at the Belgian frontier. However, the Germans *did* attack the Maginot line, breaching it in many locations and pinning the French forces there - keeping them away from the main thrust.

Note, this is not a personal attack on you, I'm just pre-empting any savage claim of "Historical baselessness" on you.

If you'd like to discuss it, PM me.

 

[Zachriel]

Though the Germans did attack the Maginot Line, this was just a diversion. The fact that they breached the Line is to be expected, and French forces were available for a counterattack to seal the breach. This is how the Line was designed to work.

The main thrust of the German attack was to cut off the French Infantry from their lines of support, and cut the army off from the capital. Once this occurred the French army had to turn around and walk back. By then it was too late.

The point is that the most successful armor attack in history avoided direct confrontation with infantry, and instead used its mobility to destory the lines of communication of the French army and so destroy their ability to fight. This is directly relevant to the game.

You can see the battle plans here;
http://www.onwar.com/maps/wwii/blitz/

And of course, defense and offense have traded places over time, but generally offense works best when when not directed at fortified positions. Castles are great, but not when enemy Knights are pillaging your villages.

 

[Zachriel]

Thanks, Gruntboy for trying to keep me from being flamed. Since I became Supreme Leader, I alway wear a flame suit.

King Zach

 

[Gruntboy]

That's OK Zachriel. Big difference is, I respect peoples opinions. I won't ever be swayed by them but you are entitled to believe whatever you want. Still, it might be best to keep historical discussions to some place else. You never know who you might be offending with loose Maginot line talk.

Nice flame proof suit btw.

 

[Dillo]

Well, heres whats going on. I have noticed that some troops are designated as defense units, wich I am assumeing gives them some kind of defensive bonus.Guess what. Spearman and Pike man are some of them designated as defens. So say, you have built a city, on a river,which gives a 50% defenseive bonus, and city walls, wich is more defense bonus,and Hills square wich is like a 25% defense bonus. and I think there are several more defense bonuses.Dump some defensive units in there, Like Infantry,Spearmen and Pikeman, then they are nearly undefeatable.The game is programmed to act this way. Though I think at times its unrealistic.Thats where your artillary comes in. Planes, ships, and ground artillary.Bomb the crap out of them untill you can send in the troops and take over.Simple as that.So there is no bug, Just a whole but load of random factors that apply.I havent yet discovered why this happens at sea still. I am working on it. Also I just wanted you guys to know that my interest in this topic and all the experements and research I have done,Has meade me decide to make a "realism" MOD. I have another guy who is gonna help me. We will need some guys to make Images for advisors and newleaders and new looks for old leaders.Aslo for Units and stuff. I will make a more specific post with info about this mod. I will also still post my realism,civmod.bic when I am through makeing tweaks,so you guys who have the same opinion as I do can heve it. And for you canadians out there, You will have your own civ and mounties will be your specfic unit. ;P