Possible collaborative project: Truly Heroic Mod

Hmmm...
Categories....
I LIKE IT!

Military Buildings.
Health Buildings.
Commerce Buildings.
Religious Buildings.
Entertainment (happiness).
Luxury (Happiness and commerce mixed positive and negative)

I like the idea of penalties to balance things...

For example a furrier may be a good idea during the age of exploration and even into the industrial era...but in later years it should become a bit less effetive, perhaps even changing from Commerce and Happiness to Commerce and UNHAPPINESS as the whole "fur is murder" thing gets into full swing...

just an example, perhaps not the best.
 
FexFX said:
as the whole "fur is murder" thing gets into full swing...

In the U.S. this attitude has never been held by more than a tiny minority of people. It just so happens that this minority is extremely vocal, i.e., they won't shut the hell up, and the press here just LOVES to give them air time. Sort of like PETA; virtually no one belongs to the organization but whenever they part their ass-cheeks to make a comment every newscaster in the country is there to lap it up.

Perhaps you might have a tech called "Rabid Environmentalism" which gives a city a -1 happy face if it's collecting fur after it's discovered. Or doing just about anything else, for that matter. Almost every tech, city building, and tile improvement in Civ is something that'll make these yahoos whine like three-year-olds about how evil humankind is, and how utterly wrong any sort of technological advancement is likely to be. Or make that a side effect of Ecology.

Max
 
maxpublic said:
In the U.S. this attitude has never been held by more than a tiny minority of people. It just so happens that this minority is extremely vocal, i.e., they won't shut the hell up, and the press here just LOVES to give them air time. Sort of like PETA; virtually no one belongs to the organization but whenever they part their ass-cheeks to make a comment every newscaster in the country is there to lap it up.

Perhaps you might have a tech called "Rabid Environmentalism" which gives a city a -1 happy face if it's collecting fur after it's discovered. Or doing just about anything else, for that matter. Almost every tech, city building, and tile improvement in Civ is something that'll make these yahoos whine like three-year-olds about how evil humankind is, and how utterly wrong any sort of technological advancement is likely to be. Or make that a side effect of Ecology.

Max

Ah we are on the same side of this argument.
:)
Ecoterrorism is JUST terrorism...the same rules should apply
 
Poser002

Everything built in a city normaly has to be thought about for the long term is it good for the city

Yes .... your earlier points are extremely valid :) but I think that the above quote is most probably the MOST IMPORTANT consideration. However, as you mention, there is (afaik) already a de facto penalty for excessive deforestation in the default game (as one loses the health benefits associated with a forest tile).

As you might have noticed (by reading some of my earlier posts), I am not really in favour of having too severe a penalty associated with any particular building. [Lets just say that I would NEVER build a Nuclear Power Plant in the default game .... as it would not be fun suffering a melt down and have all that pollution spreading over my finely crafted city]. :(
 
Son of Moose said:
Lets just say that I would NEVER build a Nuclear Power Plant in the default game .... as it would not be fun suffering a melt down and have all that pollution spreading over my finely crafted city(
.

The odds of such a thing occurring are 1 in 1000 in vanilla civ. It'll probably never happen to you in a normal game. And that actually brings me to my point: if you extend the game so that the industrial/modern eras are longer, you'll need to adjust the meltdown chance, else the odds of that meltdown will much, much higher in your game (more turns means more checks means more risk). If you want the risk factor to remain the same, you'll need to multiply the '1000' part by the increase in the number of turns for the time period when you can build the reactor (e.g., if you have ten times as many turns, you need to lower the odds of a meltdown to 1 in 10,000).

Max
 
FexFX

Hmmm...
Categories....
I LIKE IT!

Yes .... although I was largely considering these categries for planning purposes (as it will hopefully assist us in our thinking), this concept might somehow be able to be incorporated into the gameplay. :king:

I am just not too sure how .... :eek:


I like the idea of penalties to balance things...

As stated above, I am a little wary of introducing too heavy a penalty to any particular building .... imho, it just seems slightly counter-intuitive (as it might well be ignored by the majority of players :sad: ). However, I certainly agree with you that the furrier (and everything associated with it :mad: ) does seem to present a valid concern. ;)

I have a possible solution in my next reply .... ;)
 
Maxpublic

Perhaps you might have a tech called "Rabid Environmentalism"

Perhaps this should be changed from a TECH to a CIVIC option .... although the benefits of such a civic would have to be thoroughly considered. :crazyeye: Maybe extra food .... mainly due to decreased pollution? :)

EDIT/ADDITION

FexFX

Ecoterrorism is JUST terrorism...the same rules should apply

Indeed .... that is PRECISELY why Rabid Environmentalism could make for a rather interesting civic. Just imagine a leader feeling as strongly about environmental issues as Isabella feels about her religion!! :o This could actually add a WHOLE new dimension to the so-called End-game. :)
 
MaxPublic

you'll need to adjust the meltdown chance

Yes .... this is an extremely important consideration!! :eek:

I must admit (from a personal perspective) that the Nuclear Meltdown "thing" is not much fun (although I can fully understand why it was introduced into the game). It just reminds me a bit of the "whack-a-mole" pollution in Civ 3 that the devs eventually admitted was a bad mistake (and a really unfit element of the game). :(

Maybe I still have too many memories of trying to contain an ever-growing sea of orange "goo" in Civ 3. :sad:
 
Son of Moose said:
Perhaps this should be changed from a TECH to a CIVIC option .... although the benefits of such a civic would have to be thoroughly considered. :crazyeye: Maybe extra food .... mainly due to decreased pollution?

More likely due to a "Soylent Green" strategy - a combinatin of extra food along with decreased population growth. Jonathan Swift's "A Modest Proposal" would probably be a holy environmentalist tract under these circumstances. ;-)

Max
 
Maxpublic

An extremely valid point!! :D

I guess (from the default gameplay perspective of Civ 4) that Sid and Soren might not be Rabid Environmentalists. :mischief:

[After all, more food equals more people!! ;) ].
 
Son of Moose said:
I must admit (from a personal perspective) that the Nuclear Meltdown "thing" is not much fun

I don't care for it either. Fact is, we've had one real meltdown in the entire history of nuclear power, while the number of catastrophic accidents associated with the coal and oil industries has been orders of magnitude higher, with far worse effects. Yet there's no chance of any of these accidents occurring in the game. The whole 'nuclear meltdown' thing seems to be a sop to the radical environmentalist fringe.

A more likely effect would be a -1 happiness to any city with a nuclear power plant, a combination of unhappy environmentalists and the propaganda/scare tactics they use to upset the ignorant in the local population.

Max
 
MaxPublic

I don't care for it either

I am glad to hear that you agree with me on this one. :)

Maybe we can seriously consider modding this particular aspect out of the LITTLE mod. After all, most large Empires have generally made use of the "latest and greatest" technological options at their disposal.

Sure there might eventually be adverse consequences to unfettered (and totally idiotic) expansion (like the increased maintainance in Civ 4) but I actually think that too many potentially catastrophic (and random) episodes run counter to the ethos of "Building a Civilization to Stand the Test of Time". :(

But maybe I am wrong in this regard .... maybe some checks might be necessary in the game. :confused:
 
Son of Moose said:
Maybe we can seriously consider modding this particular aspect out of the LITTLE mod.

Change <iNukeExplosionRand> to 0 for nuclear power plants, but make sure they cost, say, triple the price of a coal plant. Also, if you make nuke plants a -1 happiness you do you might want to consider increasing the health penalty of coal plants (else no one will buy the nuke plants). The health penalties of coal plants are vastly understated anyway; they're the number one cause of pollution world-wide. They also put thousands of tons of radium, thorium, and uranium straight into the atmosphere every year, just so we all can have the joys of breathing the highly radioactive elements we no longer get from above-ground bomb testing.

Max
 
Maxpublic

Change <iNukeExplosionRand> to 0 for nuclear power plants, but make sure they cost, say, triple the price of a coal plant.

This seems like an eminently reasonable solution!! :king:

I (for one) would not mind paying a LOT extra for such a potentially useful economic building (multiplier). It is actually good to have to work fairly hard in order to be able to construct any structure that will provide ones civilization with major economic, cultural or military bonuses. :king:

In many respects, I think that this is indeed the beauty of civ (that we can hopefully retain and even augment in the LITTLE mod) .... it is a heavily ASPIRATIONAL game insofar as the player continually aspires to improve these parameters and thereby expand his/her Empire. :goodjob:

This is MAGNIFICENT and imho one of the major reasons for the success of the Civilization franchise and the "one more turn syndrome" .... :king:

EDIT/ADDITION:

Sure, by this definition, the vast majority of RTS and TBS games could possibly be described as "aspirational" but Civ is certainly unique in the DEPTH of gameplay (options) that it provides in order to achieve the ultimate victory. There is just so much more to it than merely "churning out" miltary units!! :D
 
Well really we have had 2 melt downs in the history. THe us had 3 mile island. Whyt it was not a major melt down it could have been alot worse if things were not just right there. Unlike the one in russia everything went wrong and they could not control the meltdown and it went super hot. Major reason why the us has not built a new factory in the last 30 plus years i belive the last one built was in the early 70's i think not 100% on that.

See that is just one thing risk vs reward. The chance of a melt down is always a risk but the likly hood is very very slim in the real world. Why the gain of power out put is very very high the risk of a melt down and the loss of a city keeps citys from voting to build one in there city. Same thing goes for dam's now. There under attack as alot of dames have busted and alot of them are getting to there life they were ment to last. Like hover dame is comming up on the point it was ment to last and some time in the next 10-15 years it might give way. So they say.

Just saying to make a game a bit more realistic some builds should have down sides to them, For the long run. to counter this could have a option to remove buildings from a city. Cost money and time to remove but they u wont have a negtive in the city from that building any more.
 
Poser002

The chance of a melt down is always a risk but the likly hood is very very slim in the real world.

Yes .... and mercifully so!! :)


Just saying to make a game a bit more realistic some builds should have down sides to them

True .... doing this would (to a degree) make the game appear a lot more realistic. But, as we are playing an Empire Building Grand Strategy game (where continuous ongoing expansion is invariably the key to winning the game), I could well ask the following question:

Would the introduction of this potentially punitive (and somewhat random) gameplay feature be fun to play (i.e. would it actually succeed in enhancing one's game-playing experience)?

In many respects, FUN and STRATEGY trump REALISM .... although it is great when they can happily co-incide. :king:
 
poser002 said:
Well really we have had 2 melt downs in the history. THe us had 3 mile island.

It wasn't a meltdown in the common sense of the word at all. The zirconium insulation on the uranium pellet tubes ruptured, starting a reaction which destroyed the inner core. However, the housing of the containment building was never breached. The plant itself never melted down, and no radioactivity of any kind was released into the area. Because of the accident the plant itself is toast (it'd cost more to repair than to build a new one), but other than that there was no damage, no injuries, no loss of life, and no radioactive spillage of any kind.

Compare that to a single Exxon Valdez, which practically destroyed a huge chunk of the ecology of Prince William Sound. That was a single oil spill from a single tanker, and not a very big one. Valdez, for example, spilled only 37,000 tons of oil; the Atlantic Express spilled *287,000* tons. There are several large oil spills every year (around 100,000 tons per year), and this is just the cost *from tanker spills*. The game doesn't take this into account, nor the damage caused by oil or coal plants. Coal plants, if you didn't know, release thousands of tons of highly radioactive material - uranium, plutonium, and thorium, among others - right into the atmosphere. No controls of any kind. You're breathing it in right now.

My point is this: the game models the highly unlikely event of a meltdown as an actual mechanic, but fails to model the much-more-damaging effects of accidents in the oil, coal, and natural gas industries - which kill thousands and cost billions every year. Why bother with something like putting a meltdown into the game, but just toss off a tiny -2 health for coal plants? Despite what the lunatic fringe says, nuclear power is far safer and far, far more healthy than any 'conventional' power source.

Major reason why the us has not built a new factory in the last 30 plus years i belive the last one built was in the early 70's i think not 100% on that.

The U.S. hasn't built nuclear power plants because idiots in the 'environmental' movement convinced the general public that they were all going to die in horrible accidents if we did build them. So instead of mass-producing nuclear breeder reactors and having safe, clean power for pennies on the dollar by now, we're still stuck with incredibly dirty, unsafe, dangerous coal and oil plants that kill thousands of Americans every year.

Why the gain of power out put is very very high the risk of a melt down and the loss of a city keeps citys from voting to build one in there city.

No, inane radical propaganda keeps people from building nuclear power plants. But it looks like that's about to change, and thank the gods for that.

Same thing goes for dam's now. There under attack as alot of dames have busted

The only part of the U.S. that's primarily hydropower is the Northwest, where I live. No dam has failed in the Northwest since the 1950's; no hydropower dam has failed here - ever.

and alot of them are getting to there life they were ment to last.

I can't speak for the rest of the world, but our dams are doing just fine. The only thing they're coming to the end of their operational life on is the turbine structures themselves. What do you do? You order new ones and replace them, just like the spark plugs or brake pads in your car.

Dams don't just fall apart after X number of years. They're enormous structures of stone and steel much like artificial mountains, and they're continuously maintained. There is no hydropower dam in the Northwest in danger of failing.

Like hover dame is comming up on the point it was ment to last and some time in the next 10-15 years it might give way.

The only people spouting this nonsense are environmentalists who hate dams. Usually they go on and on (and on and on...) about how every dam in the Northwest should be destroyed because somehow, it's more important to have a specific species of salmon than to provide the cleanest power possible to our states. Not that they want us to replace the dams with coal plants; they just want us to have...no power, I guess. They never provide a realistic alternative.

They don't try to tell us in the Northwest that are dams are about to fail and kill us all - we just aren't stupid enough to believe that crap, since most of us have lived downstream from a series of dams most of our lives. But Hoover Dam is a special exception which seems to be imbued with a particular aura of evil by environmentalists, I think because it's so bloody large. A testament to human ingenuity and technological achievement that these high priests of animism-gone-horribly-wrong just can't stand and *must* do their best to tear down.

Listening to the environmental fringe is just like trusting a used car salesman. No, scratch that; the used car salesman is invariably more honest.

Just saying to make a game a bit more realistic some builds should have down sides to them

Sure. Have nuclear plants cost more than coal plants. It's not realistic (just ask Sweden or France) but it balances the game. But a meltdown? That just isn't necessary. It certainly isn't necessary if you aren't going to model all the accidents, damage, and costs associated with much worse power-producing industries.

Max
 
Maxpublic

Coal plants, if you didn't know, release thousands of tons of highly radioactive material - uranium, plutonium, and thorium, among others - right into the atmosphere. No controls of any kind. You're breathing it in right now.

Indeed .... I have also followed the Nuclear vs non-Nuclear debate with much interest (and concern).

Therefore, how about this as a rather interesting (and somewhat heretic) solution:

Let the Nuclear Power Plant actually ADD to a city's Health :) .... as they do (without ANY doubt) substantially reduce the dangerous ecological emissions of the older Coal Power Plants. I know that this is largely contrary to the curent default Civ philosophy. :eek:


But a meltdown? That just isn't necessary. It certainly isn't necessary if you aren't going to model all the accidents, damage, and costs associated with much worse power-producing industries.

:goodjob: :king:
 
It is not so much the fact of haven them melt down that gets everyone in a uproar this days it is the fact of what to do with the extra waste. Like righ tnow till i belive it was 2010 we are shiping over 100 load's of the waste to nevada to store it in the new goverment mt/cave they built to store it there. That is the real prom with nuke planets is we dont know what to do with the extra crap we make form it. If we would have spent the time in the last 30 years workign on making new planets we might have found a source to use the extra crap till there was nothing left but we havent. About the dame's the building specs on them from teh time they were built the builders placed a life tag on all them how long they should last befor we have to start to upgrade them. The hover dame life time is comming up and as it is one of the hugest dame's in the world is a huge reason to start to look in to ways to upgrade them.

Well i'm not an environmentalest but i think we need to find better ways to save the planet and cheaper ways of doign things. Like i think solor power needs to be pushed more on the people as it is cheaper way and better for the envirerment then burning gas's. Also it would get us off this huge 70 dollors for a drum of gas that the gas companys make like 60 dollors a drum i think is nuts.

That might be a good game add thoe to have oil tankers. To have oil fields and if u have alot of oil fields could use it as export and up the dmg of oil spills on ur coast. Could make it that if u have wild life in the sea there it dies and makes it that u cant use so many sq's off that cost for use with ships. Like a hgue tanker spill u cant use the next 50 sq's around that are till it is cleaned up.
 
maxpublic said:
.

The odds of such a thing occurring are 1 in 1000 in vanilla civ. It'll probably never happen to you in a normal game. And that actually brings me to my point: if you extend the game so that the industrial/modern eras are longer, you'll need to adjust the meltdown chance, else the odds of that meltdown will much, much higher in your game (more turns means more checks means more risk). If you want the risk factor to remain the same, you'll need to multiply the '1000' part by the increase in the number of turns for the time period when you can build the reactor (e.g., if you have ten times as many turns, you need to lower the odds of a meltdown to 1 in 10,000).

Max

Thanks! Good catch, I hadn't even thoguht about this one!
Is there anything else like this that you can think of to make sure I havent missed other things?

The factor here is 7 BTW.
 
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