Possible collaborative project: Truly Heroic Mod
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Son of Moose
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Kandalf
That would make for an extremely useful and interesting technology in (presumably) the Modern era.
That would make for an extremely useful and interesting technology in (presumably) the Modern era.
I have yet to work on the later tech tree.
My work has been primarily on the anchient tech tree which is where we will need the most filler space for those 1200 turns spent in ancient.
Right now the tech tree for has been increased so that the first 26 techs from the original tree are now mixed in with 28 new techs. This means that there are more than twice the number of techs in that era. 54 techs to reach the tech level of machinery, drama, code of laws, currency, engineering and fuedalism!
As a result if we tripple the length of time that it takes to research techs, and multiply the number of turns by 7...the result is that research becomes a mere 10% faster relative to the timeline...so...we need to go a hair higher than triple or come up with a few more things to add to the chart to maintain the timeline's flow...
The End goal should be that you reach the end of the tech chart in relatively the same time as a "normal" game...
If the game is 7 times longer...and it originally took you 400 of the 440 turns in an normal game to get future tech...then you should end up with future tech in turn 2800 of a 3080 turn game...
Ideally you would make things a hair slower than that however in the name of not finishing so early...
perhaps increasing the tech times by 5% above normal...resulting in a finish turn of 420 or in the 7x game 2940 which is actually not unreasonable!
To do this we simply increase tech costs to 338% of NORMAL...
Which begs the question...will that play tollerably? Will waiting 3.38 times as long for every tech feel intollerable or will it still be fun?
The only way to change this number would be to make more techs somehow...
and considering how many I've proposed will only carry these numbers out to the age of Fuedalism...I need to come up with about 50 MORE techs to carry this to the end of the timeline...
Oye...I think I just gave myself a headache...
My work has been primarily on the anchient tech tree which is where we will need the most filler space for those 1200 turns spent in ancient.
Right now the tech tree for has been increased so that the first 26 techs from the original tree are now mixed in with 28 new techs. This means that there are more than twice the number of techs in that era. 54 techs to reach the tech level of machinery, drama, code of laws, currency, engineering and fuedalism!
As a result if we tripple the length of time that it takes to research techs, and multiply the number of turns by 7...the result is that research becomes a mere 10% faster relative to the timeline...so...we need to go a hair higher than triple or come up with a few more things to add to the chart to maintain the timeline's flow...
The End goal should be that you reach the end of the tech chart in relatively the same time as a "normal" game...
If the game is 7 times longer...and it originally took you 400 of the 440 turns in an normal game to get future tech...then you should end up with future tech in turn 2800 of a 3080 turn game...
Ideally you would make things a hair slower than that however in the name of not finishing so early...
perhaps increasing the tech times by 5% above normal...resulting in a finish turn of 420 or in the 7x game 2940 which is actually not unreasonable!
To do this we simply increase tech costs to 338% of NORMAL...
Which begs the question...will that play tollerably? Will waiting 3.38 times as long for every tech feel intollerable or will it still be fun?
The only way to change this number would be to make more techs somehow...
and considering how many I've proposed will only carry these numbers out to the age of Fuedalism...I need to come up with about 50 MORE techs to carry this to the end of the timeline...
Oye...I think I just gave myself a headache...
FexFX said:
Bear in mind that simply increasing the cost in GameSpeedInfo *will not* accomplish this. Production of tech points increases from era to era with the advent of buildings, increasing commerce, and the addition of specialists - it isn't a straight linear relationship, by any stretch of the imagination.
In terms of straight tech points in an unmodified game, the relationship looks something like: 1/2/4/8/16/32. That is, if you want the same number of turns per era then the tech point cost of all must-research-this techs in that era has to double with every era (or thereabouts, depending on what else you do with the mod). So if all the must-research-this techs cost a grand total of 1,000 points in the Ancient Era, then all of the must-research-this techs will have to cost around 2,000 points in the Classical Era in order to keep the game from speeding up. And 4,000 in the Medieval, 8,000 in the Renaissance, etc.
After I noticed this I decided not to make the changes to GameSpeedInfo (which won't work, if that's all you do) but instead to take the point totals and divide them among the techs for these eras by hand. Since you're already reinventing the tech tree this shouldn't be any real additional work. However, if you aren't aware of this factor and you reinvent the tech tree first, then after your playtests you'll have to go back and adjust the costs again - so I'm pointing this out to save you additional labor. No sense in you having to reinvent the wheel that I and others have already stumbled over.
Max
Son of Moose
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FexFX
This is REALLY IMPRESSIVE work!!
Yes .... balancing out everything is going to be a major task.
In addition, as you so correctly say, we must try hard to retain the original Vanilla Civ Epic game speed (wrt the default rate of acquiring new technologies and building structures and terrain improvements).
We cannot really afford to slow everything down .... otherwise the gameplay could become incredibly tedious.
However, I suppose, it might be acceptable to have slightly slower technological development (if we cannot devise enough appropriate new technologies) while having a "normal" (or even slightly accelerated .... to compensate for the slower technologies) build speed.
In other words, the LITTLE mod must still offer fairly brisk game play where something (research technology, building or terrain improvement) is always a few turns away from completion.
Have you checked this link appearing on page 4 of this thread:
http://civ3.bernskov.com/RaR/about.asp
Proceed to the "Techchooser" option in the toolbar at the bottom of the page. This extremely detailed page outlines ALL of the technologies (200+) appearing in the DYP/RAR mod. These techs are even divided according to era .... beginning with the Ancient era. Therefore it might be useful to consult this list in order to see whether you have included all (or most) of their Ancient era technologies (and a few more to spare 
).
Perhaps also visit the "Resources" section for possible additional inspiration for technologies based upon the various resources listed. It is a singularly impressive list!!
This is REALLY IMPRESSIVE work!!
Yes .... balancing out everything is going to be a major task.
In addition, as you so correctly say, we must try hard to retain the original Vanilla Civ Epic game speed (wrt the default rate of acquiring new technologies and building structures and terrain improvements). We cannot really afford to slow everything down .... otherwise the gameplay could become incredibly tedious.
However, I suppose, it might be acceptable to have slightly slower technological development (if we cannot devise enough appropriate new technologies) while having a "normal" (or even slightly accelerated .... to compensate for the slower technologies) build speed. In other words, the LITTLE mod must still offer fairly brisk game play where something (research technology, building or terrain improvement) is always a few turns away from completion.
Have you checked this link appearing on page 4 of this thread:
http://civ3.bernskov.com/RaR/about.asp
Proceed to the "Techchooser" option in the toolbar at the bottom of the page. This extremely detailed page outlines ALL of the technologies (200+) appearing in the DYP/RAR mod. These techs are even divided according to era .... beginning with the Ancient era.
Therefore it might be useful to consult this list in order to see whether you have included all (or most) of their Ancient era technologies (and a few more to spare ).Perhaps also visit the "Resources" section for possible additional inspiration for technologies based upon the various resources listed. It is a singularly impressive list!!
Son of Moose
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Maxpublic
GOOD POINT!!
Yes .... it will be vitally important to consider the effect of these non-linear relationships when the tech tree is being redesigned (and eventually tested). Otherwise things might become severely unbalanced.
This makes me think of another possibility .... although it might prove to be a legitimate (and highly successful) strategy in an ultra-epic game featuring relatively accelerated build turns:
What about someone pursuing a highly aggressive economic and cultural building strategy (which would probably be my favoured strategy ) with the production of tons of cultural enhancement buildings and the resultant equivalent number of GPs? This would surely "rake in" the technologies .... although I would be the first person to say that such a strategy should reap its rewards.
GOOD POINT!!
Yes .... it will be vitally important to consider the effect of these non-linear relationships when the tech tree is being redesigned (and eventually tested). Otherwise things might become severely unbalanced.
This makes me think of another possibility .... although it might prove to be a legitimate (and highly successful) strategy in an ultra-epic game featuring relatively accelerated build turns:
What about someone pursuing a highly aggressive economic and cultural building strategy (which would probably be my favoured strategy
) with the production of tons of cultural enhancement buildings and the resultant equivalent number of GPs? This would surely "rake in" the technologies .... although I would be the first person to say that such a strategy should reap its rewards. Max,
My understanding was that the setting in Gamespeedinfo was a multiplier for the cost of all techs...so that if set to 200, techs whcih cot 50 would cost 100 and techs which cost 1500 would cost 3000...is this not so?
The relationship SHOULD be entirely linear since city tech production should NOT increase significantly in this mod. Meaning that the cost of all techs are increase but tech output is not increased...thus double is double...this held true at 216 percent all the way up to the rifle...My period of discovery seemed to be the same by year roughly even though by turn it was double which was the effect I was aiming for.
There will be some manual editing of tech costs on an individual basis, however most should be able to remain the same unless there is some part of your logic I do not follow, or my understanding of the tech multiplier in gamespeedinfo is completely flawed...
My understanding was that the setting in Gamespeedinfo was a multiplier for the cost of all techs...so that if set to 200, techs whcih cot 50 would cost 100 and techs which cost 1500 would cost 3000...is this not so?
The relationship SHOULD be entirely linear since city tech production should NOT increase significantly in this mod. Meaning that the cost of all techs are increase but tech output is not increased...thus double is double...this held true at 216 percent all the way up to the rifle...My period of discovery seemed to be the same by year roughly even though by turn it was double which was the effect I was aiming for.
There will be some manual editing of tech costs on an individual basis, however most should be able to remain the same unless there is some part of your logic I do not follow, or my understanding of the tech multiplier in gamespeedinfo is completely flawed...
Son of Moose said:What about someone pursuing a highly aggressive economic and cultural building strategy (which would probably be my favoured strategy
Good for you, bad for all the AIs that don't use this strategy. I agree that would be the logical way to go, but in the end you'll make it easier for a human player to win.
Max
Son of Moose said:FexFX
This is REALLY IMPRESSIVE work!!
Yes .... balancing out everything is going to be a major task.
We cannot really afford to slow everything down .... otherwise the gameplay could become incredibly tedious.
In other words, the LITTLE mod must still offer fairly brisk game play where something (research technology, building or terrain improvement) is always a few turns away from completion.
Have you checked this link appearing on page 4 of this thread:
http://civ3.bernskov.com/RaR/about.asp
Proceed to the "Techchooser" option in the toolbar at the bottom of the page. This extremely detailed page outlines ALL of the technologies (200+) appearing in the DYP/RAR mod. These techs are even divided according to era .... beginning with the Ancient era.
Perhaps also visit the "Resources" section for possible additional inspiration for technologies based upon the various resources listed. It is a singularly impressive list!!
Yes, I am VERY familiar with DYP and RAR, but I dont want to just copy them.
As to slowing everythign down...I found that slowing the tech tree down to reltaiveistically 5%-10% slower was not a problem. Units should probably be slowed a bit but not relativistically. Relativistically, in a game with 7 times as many turns doubling the time it takes to produce a unit would result in 3.5 times the number of units being produced...so you must keep that in mind or we will be dealing with standing armies of literally hundreds of units per AI and then there is the PC...think about how much the game would slwo down from a system performance! If I made units take 3.5 time longer to produce, it might seem painful at first, but in the long haul, you'd still end up producing twice as many units and having 7 times longer to utilize them...I think somewhere in between would be best...say 2.8 times longer to produce a unit results in 2.5 times more units...
You have to look at things relative to the entire gamescale, and keep things from becomming too insane.
IF u have the tech tree all ready done up to this point and in game maybe u can take a screen shot and post it to give a better idea of what u have and to help better give more ideas to add on to the tech tree.
Also an idea maybe is to make free citys/tribes. Thsoe lil tribes u see at the start maybe make them more in to bigger tribes. In teh early days there were more towns and they revolted alot in there countrys. Look at scottland and brit. China had lots of interneal fighting for 100's of years befor the xing dynasty i think it was brought them all together under one leader. Could add more of a real feel to the game. Also make it a lil harder to just walk in to those tribes and get the free tech and make u think about clearing out ur country or making peace with the tribes if u can then just marshing ur armys to the first leader u see in game.
Also an idea maybe is to make free citys/tribes. Thsoe lil tribes u see at the start maybe make them more in to bigger tribes. In teh early days there were more towns and they revolted alot in there countrys. Look at scottland and brit. China had lots of interneal fighting for 100's of years befor the xing dynasty i think it was brought them all together under one leader. Could add more of a real feel to the game. Also make it a lil harder to just walk in to those tribes and get the free tech and make u think about clearing out ur country or making peace with the tribes if u can then just marshing ur armys to the first leader u see in game.
poser002 said:
No where near the implementation phase yet.
Because of how things work its vital to plan all your techs before implementing since the tech tree is written backwards on cause and effect...
Things are not written so A Leads to B Leads to C...
They are written as C Requires B which requires A...
And not even that simple since G actually requires B and D or E...
Meaning that if you plan B D and E without thinking about G by the time you get to G things may seem odd and then you end up shoehorning.
Look back a few pages (page 4?) and you'll see that I poseted a spread sheet showing the currently poroposed tree.
Shqype
Shqyptar
Here's another idea I had regarding additional resources. Someone mentioned wood as an additional resource, but comment about how wierd it would be to have a resource (wood) inside a terrain (forest).
So this would be better:
A civilization has access to wood if it has a forest inside it's borders. This will prevent players from cutting down every forest for the sake of speeding up city production (something I like to do when building wonders) and will make use of more improvements such as the lumbermill , which currently seems to be neglected.
When pillaging a civ's countryside to prevent them from having access to wood, perhaps you can:
Just a few ideas, but it would create a new resource which was used all throughout human history, and have a means of balance.
So this would be better:
A civilization has access to wood if it has a forest inside it's borders. This will prevent players from cutting down every forest for the sake of speeding up city production (something I like to do when building wonders) and will make use of more improvements such as the lumbermill , which currently seems to be neglected.
When pillaging a civ's countryside to prevent them from having access to wood, perhaps you can:
- Create a new unit (arsonist) for the purpose of burning down the forest from 1 tile away (and causing collateral damage to any units stationed in the forest)
- Give military units (preferably siege weapons) a new option for destroying the forest
- Allow workers to be able to cut down enemy forests
Just a few ideas, but it would create a new resource which was used all throughout human history, and have a means of balance.
OH here is just an idea to. COuld make it that if u have to many things around ur city the population gets unhappy and might leave. Such as any major city with high industry people move out of hte city to the smaller citys that are near the main city but not right in it. This would make thinking about what u really want to build for a city. high resource buildings or sci stuff and not just build everything u can get.
Hmmm...An Urban sprawl factor, and Wood.
Wood?
Isn't that what a forest is?
It already provides a bonus as it is, and with a lumber mill it becomes even better, and then with Environmentalism its even better...
I think you may be onto something witht he idea of a city improvement that requires a forest inside city borders, but wood as a resource...I just cant see it with all of the current benefits of Forests.
And units that can destroy terrain like a forest...IF its possible its not a bad idea...tho I think it would even be better if they could start a forest fire and cause adjacent forests to catch fire...but I dont know if it belongs in this mod. I want to avoid it becoming too "kitchen sink".
The Urban sprawl idea is intersting in some ways, but a penalty for growing seems counter intuitive...also it seems that the penalty for population already partially covers this.
Wood?
Isn't that what a forest is?
It already provides a bonus as it is, and with a lumber mill it becomes even better, and then with Environmentalism its even better...
I think you may be onto something witht he idea of a city improvement that requires a forest inside city borders, but wood as a resource...I just cant see it with all of the current benefits of Forests.
And units that can destroy terrain like a forest...IF its possible its not a bad idea...tho I think it would even be better if they could start a forest fire and cause adjacent forests to catch fire...but I dont know if it belongs in this mod. I want to avoid it becoming too "kitchen sink".
The Urban sprawl idea is intersting in some ways, but a penalty for growing seems counter intuitive...also it seems that the penalty for population already partially covers this.
one resource that could be added would be diamond. Could have diamond mines. Could turn diamonds in to a rich income for the city or just for trade.
Also might want to remove the barracks from warrior code. Really at this area in time they dont have order to the warriors. They mostly just have a spear nothing more. Barracks i would say would come in around bronze working area. About this time they start to get some order to the armed forces of that time. They have smiths to make and store weapons and train tropps.
Also that might be a skill that coulb e added armory. Stores all the weapons and armor made from that city.
One other thing the calendar should that really have the map? Wouldnt navigation/paper be better for maps?
Also might want to remove the barracks from warrior code. Really at this area in time they dont have order to the warriors. They mostly just have a spear nothing more. Barracks i would say would come in around bronze working area. About this time they start to get some order to the armed forces of that time. They have smiths to make and store weapons and train tropps.
Also that might be a skill that coulb e added armory. Stores all the weapons and armor made from that city.
One other thing the calendar should that really have the map? Wouldnt navigation/paper be better for maps?
Son of Moose
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There was certainly a "lot of action" while I was asleep last night!! 
Therefore I will start with a few fairly short replies:
FexFX:
Hopefully you are indeed correct about the Gamespeedinfo!! This would be MUCH easier to implement.
Maxpublic
Yes .... I am not too sure whether the ai would be able to be ultra-competitive (especially in the higher levels of the game) over such a prolonged period.
Having recently read about the Raging Barbarians function, this option would seem to provide the more competitive player with a LOT of extra action!!! They would certainly serve as a bit of a "balancer".
FexFX:
Indeed .... I think that (with some thought and planning) we might be able to do even better with this project!! I just think that the DYP/RAR mod does contain a wealth of additional material that might readily be able to be incorporated into this mod. (Remember that i have previously raised some concerns about their choice of buildings. ).
Yes .... this is an extremely valid concern. Perhaps it might still be feasible (especially considering all the new buildings that we will be adding to the default game) to largely retain the default BUILDING and TERRAIN IMPROVEMENT production speeds?
Maybe this might not be too insane? Although, i fully agree that we need to thoroughly consider the implications of such a decision.
To be continued ....
Therefore I will start with a few fairly short replies:
FexFX:
Hopefully you are indeed correct about the Gamespeedinfo!! This would be MUCH easier to implement.
Maxpublic
Yes .... I am not too sure whether the ai would be able to be ultra-competitive (especially in the higher levels of the game) over such a prolonged period.
Having recently read about the Raging Barbarians function, this option would seem to provide the more competitive player with a LOT of extra action!!! They would certainly serve as a bit of a "balancer".
FexFX:
Indeed .... I think that (with some thought and planning) we might be able to do even better with this project!!
I just think that the DYP/RAR mod does contain a wealth of additional material that might readily be able to be incorporated into this mod. (Remember that i have previously raised some concerns about their choice of buildings. ).Yes .... this is an extremely valid concern.
Perhaps it might still be feasible (especially considering all the new buildings that we will be adding to the default game) to largely retain the default BUILDING and TERRAIN IMPROVEMENT production speeds?Maybe this might not be too insane? Although, i fully agree that we need to thoroughly consider the implications of such a decision.
To be continued ....
Son of Moose
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Poser002
Superbarbarians.
Certainly the current default barbarians on "Raging" difficulty are already a "handfull" to deal with and are extremely organized. However, there might be ways of getting closer to your idea.
FexFX
True .... but maybe we can find another function for some of them (like the proposed concept of PRESTIGE) or (more likely) balance some of the existing buildings in order to accomodate their inclusion within the game. However, as both you and Maxpublic have suggested, balancing will be vital ....
[As an aside (slightly tongue-in-cheek ), I should imagine that there are not too many players that would like to be too badly mauled by the ai (and/or the barbarians) after (say) 2000 turns!! ]
To be continued ....
Superbarbarians.
Certainly the current default barbarians on "Raging" difficulty are already a "handfull" to deal with and are extremely organized. However, there might be ways of getting closer to your idea.
FexFX
True .... but maybe we can find another function for some of them (like the proposed concept of PRESTIGE) or (more likely) balance some of the existing buildings in order to accomodate their inclusion within the game.
However, as both you and Maxpublic have suggested, balancing will be vital .... [As an aside (slightly tongue-in-cheek
), I should imagine that there are not too many players that would like to be too badly mauled by the ai (and/or the barbarians) after (say) 2000 turns!! ]To be continued ....
Son of Moose
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Continued 2:
Shqype
These are MOST DEFINITELY extremely interesting ideas that could possibly be included in this mod!!
I suppose that it all ultimately comes down to balancing and how it fits into the ethos of this ultra-epic mod.
Poser002:
Maybe .... although (imho) this might prove a bit counter-intuitive insofar as it would not reward (but rather punish) the player for making necessary (or strategically appropriate) terrain improvements. [Note: I only read FexFX's reply after writing this. ]
On the other hand, I would actually be keen to see one able to make MULTIPLE tile improvements to the SAME tile. For instance, I don't see why it should not be possible to irrigate (or the equivalent) cottage tiles as "home vegetable gardening" is a reality. Maybe there should be a slight penalty (balance) involved as this production could never rival that of (say) a farm.
FexFX
True .... everything should (hopefully) come together as a (near) perfectly integrated whole. (Just like the default game)
However, from a personal perspective, I am not against the idea of incorporating other mods and suggestions that will enable us to produce even more addictive and compelling gameplay in the LITTLE mod.
For instance, 3080 turns does indeed represent a LONG game .... therefore it would certainly seem a good idea to add as much variation (and strategic options) as one can (within reason of course .... hence FexFX's completely valid concern).
Again, this comes down to BALANCING ....
To be continued:
Shqype
These are MOST DEFINITELY extremely interesting ideas that could possibly be included in this mod!!
I suppose that it all ultimately comes down to balancing and how it fits into the ethos of this ultra-epic mod.
Poser002:
Maybe .... although (imho) this might prove a bit counter-intuitive insofar as it would not reward (but rather punish) the player for making necessary (or strategically appropriate) terrain improvements. [Note: I only read FexFX's reply after writing this.
]On the other hand, I would actually be keen to see one able to make MULTIPLE tile improvements to the SAME tile. For instance, I don't see why it should not be possible to irrigate (or the equivalent) cottage tiles as "home vegetable gardening" is a reality. Maybe there should be a slight penalty (balance) involved as this production could never rival that of (say) a farm.
FexFX
True .... everything should (hopefully) come together as a (near) perfectly integrated whole. (Just like the default game)
However, from a personal perspective, I am not against the idea of incorporating other mods and suggestions that will enable us to produce even more addictive and compelling gameplay in the LITTLE mod.
For instance, 3080 turns does indeed represent a LONG game .... therefore it would certainly seem a good idea to add as much variation (and strategic options) as one can (within reason of course .... hence FexFX's completely valid concern).
Again, this comes down to BALANCING ....
To be continued:
Son of Moose
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Poser002
Good idea!!
This should also allow for some more associated techs!!
Well .... I have earlier mentioned that it might be a great idea to diversify the range of military buildings (starting with the Ancient and Classical eras).
For instance, we would now have:
This would really "beef out" the military building side of the game.
In addition the following support buildings could also be introduced:
What do you think of this degree of amplification?
Good idea!!
This should also allow for some more associated techs!! Well .... I have earlier mentioned that it might be a great idea to diversify the range of military buildings (starting with the Ancient and Classical eras).
For instance, we would now have:
- Barracks (the most basic structure)
- Archery Range (possibly the next in line)
- Stables (would need horses for this one .... therefore even more advanced)
- Siege Workshop (would need basic engineering, etc. .... therefore the most advanced of these earlymilitary installations)
- Palisades (most basic defensive structure)
- Walls (basic stone to fortified to citadel in order of advancement)
- Protective towers (watch to sentry to guard to ballista in order of advancement). Maybe one could build up to FIVE of these in order to radically upgrade city defense bonuses.
This would really "beef out" the military building side of the game.
In addition the following support buildings could also be introduced:
- Recruiting Office (self-explanatory)
- Weapon smith (for making spears and swords)
- Chariot-maker (self-explanatory)
- Fletcher (for making arrows)
What do you think of this degree of amplification?
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