Possible collaborative project: Truly Heroic Mod

[Son of Moose]

FedFX

Thanks for the mini-mod!!

This is what MaxPublic wanted to play

I am not too sure whether he wanted the relatively accelerated build rate which would ensure a fairly "action-packed game".

Just so we are clear I am still moving ahead with the developement of my own tech tree

This is excellent .... perhaps you could share some of your ideas with us?

 

[maxpublic]

Well if all you want is a LONGER game...more turns, slower tech developement and no real changes to anything else at all, I can make such a mod for you in about 5 minutes. I would only need to modify about 20 numbers divides among two files. That's it.
And you'd have your mod.

I already have my mod, and it takes considerably longer than that unless you don't care a whit for game balance. Simply changing GameSpeedInfo won't accomplish what I'm talking about.

Tho really my biggest problem with this is not really about whether or not there is a new tech to research...its in a LACK of things to do.
In the early era...lets say before Bronze working...You have three military units total. Warrior. Spearmen. Archer. and a small number of improvements. Do you really want to spend a few hundred turns at that tech level with nothing more than those three unit types?

Actually, I have only Axemen and Chariots. And yes, that's exactly what I want to do. Civ sucks - really sucks - when you start a war with one unit type, and by the time they reach the bloody front you've already developed the next one in line. This has always been a huge failing of the Civ series, and it's even more of a failing with Civ 4 - which, in a bizarrely inexplicable design decision - was speeded up even more.

That's the difference I was talking about earlier. Some people want a constant stream of bells and whistles; others find this distracting, even annoying.

Are you instead proposing the same NUMBER of techs, but each tech does MORE? So that Archery creates several different archery units or something?

No, I have LESS techs. Seven per era. They are: Government, Culture, Military, Production, Agriculture, Science, and Commerce. In the Ancient Era you have Government I, Culture I, etc.; in the Classical Government II, Culture II, and so on. Each tech is a significant increase over the previous tech.

You get one infantry type per era. One cav type until Renaissance, after which cav disappears and you get tanks. Fighter types in eras 5-7. And so on. No endless subdivisions of units, nor the rather silly conglomeration of entire divisions of archers or artillery pieces as separate units.

This appeals to me. It makes more sense and allows me to concentrate on actually playing the game rather than dealing with an endless stream of techs, new improvements, minor changes in units, and so on.

I'm not trying to convince you to adopt this playing style as the basis of the mod. Clearly you want the bells, whistles, and constant interruptions - to you, this is fun. To me, it is not. It benefits neither of us to try to sway the other to do something that isn't fun, since that's what playing the game is all about. After all, our primary purpose in being here is to waste time in the pursuit of a frivolous, if enjoyable, activity.

Max

 

[kandalf]

Creating 18 seperate tech trees would result in a very unbalanced game most likely.

 

[Son of Moose]

Maxpublic

when you start a war with one unit type, and by the time they reach the bloody front you've already developed the next one in line. This has always been a huge failing of the Civ series,

Yes .... I now understand precisely what you mean.

This problem would (hopefully) be overcome by severely prolonging each of the default eras of the game .... as would be the rationale behind the LITTLE mod.

That's the difference I was talking about earlier. Some people want a constant stream of bells and whistles; others find this distracting, even annoying.

In many respects, I don't necessarily think that (for instance) the ability to build more structures (especially defensive structures) and terrain improvements will unduly detract from your desired "period play". Sure, it might keep you busier with other aspects of the game while you are marching your warriors to a distant front and engaging in combat with your neighbour(s).

Seven per era. They are: Government, Culture, Military, Production, Agriculture, Science, and Commerce

I actually like these techs as categories .... which could be hugely expanded. However, I respect your desire to not concentrate on this particular aspect of the game.

It benefits neither of us to try to sway the other to do something that isn't fun, since that's what playing the game is all about. After all, our primary purpose in being here is to waste time in the pursuit of a frivolous, if enjoyable, activity.

Point taken .... although I will always welcome any comments that you might like to raise!!

Indeed .... playing a great game like Civ is mightily enjoyable!!

 

[Son of Moose]

Kandalf

Creating 18 seperate tech trees would result in a very unbalanced game most likely.

That would be another extremely important consideration .... apart from the enormous length of time that it would take to implement.

 

[FexFX]

properly balancing one extended tree is hard enough...
Balancing 18 extended trees...or even 18 non extended but revamped trees...would be madness!

 

[FexFX]

Here is what I have so far as far as planning goes...
There is a lot of stuff not noted which I just understand my intentions for...
This is something I am tinkering with here in my freetime at work so its not very detailed yet.
I am using Wikipedia for researching reasonable advancements.

31 new Advancements I am sure of
2 I am pondering
Most of the early tech chart is completely changed.

So far I am certain I can do everything listed.

And most of it is just thinning existing stuff out a bit to make advancement slower.
I would like to add more new things but right now I am working on expanding the chart to fill those first 1000+ turns

 

[maxpublic]

I actually like these techs as categories .... which could be hugely expanded.

Waaay back in a previous civ life I divided the techs into these categories, then made the actual techs themselves and keyed them to the categories. Some civ techs make sense, while others either do not or are oddly over-specific (e.g., Compass). It seemed strange to me that the enormous field of Construction would be one tech, while minor variations on gunpowder would result in a half-dozen techs.

In Civ 4 I just tossed all the techs and rolled them right into the categories.

Essentially, though, if you look at all the civs the techs fall into one of these fields. It gives you a decent baseline for how you want to class your techs, chart them, and make sure you don't put too many or too few of any one category into any specific era. You get more variation that way, and it allows for greater player flexibility from era to era rather than "this is the era where I spend 90% of my time researching military units".

The way I have it set up now you make major advances in every field in every era (unless you go for a local-in-time advantage). So, for example, every advance in Agriculture has as one of its core benefits a +1 food to all farm and pasture production, +2 for the 7th era (Future Tech). But you could easily subdivide this by distinguishing farms/animal breeding/plantations, as well as generalized improvements like irrigation, health improvements and don't-need-water. From this list I think I could devise three agricultural techs per era, for a total of 21 techs from Agriculture alone. Perhaps four techs per era, if you want to distinguish it more finely.

In essence, you and I would end up with the exact same result, it's just that I've opted for the gross categorization as the tech while you want the explicit subdivisions. More work for you, less for me, har har!

Max

 

[FexFX]

Uh Oh!!!
Possible show stopping bug...
Something I just learned about my Speed mod that I am anxious to learn about other speed mods...

I have had a report that in my mod GREAT PEOPLE do not properly grant techs when used to gain techs.

I need someone to help me verify this...

 

[Son of Moose]

FexFX

I am using Wikipedia for researching reasonable advancements

EXCELLENT IDEA!!

Have you followed the link (possibly on page 3 or 4 of this ever-growing thread) to the DYP/RAR (Double Your Please/Rise and Rule) mod for Civ 3? There are certainly MANY new technologies, buildings and resources that have been added to Civ 3 .... several of which could (hopefully) be incorporated into the LITTLE mod.

My only (comparatively minor) criticism of the DYP/RAR mod is that there does seem to be an element of overlap between some of their newly added buildings. For example:

• Maybe there should be fewer Palaces. Perhaps the Main Palace as well as the default Winter Palace and (now) the additional Summer Palace (and their associated gardens) should be reduced to just one main building. (However, I realise that it might prove strategically important to retain the default Winter Palace). This Main Palace could then be systemically upgraded (like the Palace in "Children of the Nile"). This development would make the Palace (as one's seat of power) all that more important (especially seeing that the Palace upgrades in Civ 3 have been discontinued in Civ 4 ).
• Some of the "commercial" buildings seem to be duplicated (or so it may seem to the uncritical mind) .... perhaps they could be better defined in order to highlight and further clarify their different ingame functions.
• the modern wonders appear to be a little haphazard (with possibly too many US skyscrapers being featured) .... althouhg this is merely a subjective (and personal) assessment,

Otherwise, the DYP/RAR mod is truly inspired!!

To be continued ....

 

[Son of Moose]

FexFX

I would like to add more new things but right now I am working on expanding the chart to fill those first 1000+ turns

Yes .... I think that it is best to concentrate on the "beginning" of the game (i.e. the Ancient era) before trying to do too much with the subsequent eras. As you well know, virtually everything in a Civ game is heavily dependent upon the early stages (and the first 1000+ turns represent the early stages of the LITLE mod ).

Indeed, your approach appears to be most thorough and you seem to be paying meticulous attention to detail. Imho, these are singularly important traits to adopt when undertaking such a massive project.

(I will download and examine the attached file .... it was very reluctant to download just now).

 

[Shqype]

I volunteer myself to help you out on your project. I have some great ideas and know some things about programming, and would greatly enjoy being a part of this project. Please let me know if you agree to accept my help.

 

[Son of Moose]

Maxpublic

Waaay back in a previous civ life I divided the techs into these categories, then made the actual techs themselves and keyed them to the categories. Some civ techs make sense, while others either do not or are oddly over-specific (e.g., Compass). It seemed strange to me that the enormous field of Construction would be one tech, while minor variations on gunpowder would result in a half-dozen techs.

Have you, by any remote chance, still got a copy of your list of techs divided into these categories? (Maybe FexFX might find them extremely useful? In addition, I would be genuinely interested in viewing them. ) I really like your rationale for this division .... this is certainly closely in line with my thinking on the matter.

The way I have it set up now you make major advances in every field in every era

This is MOST DEFINITELY compatible with my thinking!! Maybe (as you say in the next quote) it is just the level of detail involved that separates us in this matter. Perhaps the present flexibility in the tech tree should somehow be retained but only within a SINGLE era .... so that nobody is "running around" with gunpowder units in the Ancient or Classical eras. (From posts that I have read, this does seem possible in Civ 4).

In essence, you and I would end up with the exact same result, it's just that I've opted for the gross categorization as the tech while you want the explicit subdivisions. More work for you, less for me, har har!

Very true ....

But, as you so correctly say, the two end results would not be all that different .... "the difference is merely in the details"

 

[Son of Moose]

FexFX

Possible show stopping bug...

Hopefully there WILL be a way to overcome or bypass this seemingly major problem.

Please keep us informed about this matter!!

Can anyone please help FexFX with this problem???

 

[Son of Moose]

Shqype

I volunteer myself to help you out on your project. I have some great ideas and know some things about programming, and would greatly enjoy being a part of this project. Please let me know if you agree to accept my help.

This would be great .... as we would (most probably) require a WHOLE TEAM of volunteers to work on this mod for it to ever "see the light of day".

I personally think that it would be best for us to pool our resources .... in other words for all our (hopefully) growing team to work together and share their efforts. This would seemingly represent our best chance of being successful with this massive project.

As you can see (from following this thread), FexFX is presently taking the lead with programming-related activities .... although he currently seems to have hit a rather severe snag (please refer above).

As I MOST DEFINITELY do not wish to "undercut" or interfere with his most generous involvement in this mod, I think that we must first gauge his opinion in this matter.

However (again from a personal perspective), I would NEVER decline such an offer.

 

[Son of Moose]

ANY IDEAS?

As I have previously mentioned (sorry for the re-hash ), I am extremely interested in the possibility of including more aesthetic/cultural buildings in the Ancient and Classical eras of the game.

For instance, the Obelisk (apart from the religious structures) appears to be the only early aesthetic/cultural structure in Civ 4. Therefore, imho, it would be great to add a few more of these structures to the early game in order to add to one's cultural level.

[Indeed, maybe a new concept of "Prestige" could thereby be introduced into the game. It would possibly lead to distinct military benefits (? possibly increased military unit hitpoints)].

Cultural/aesthetic buildings could include:

Statues (small and medium-sized)
A fountain
A fish pond
A public garden

Prestige-generating structures could include:

Large statues

Any further ideas about these additional structures and how one could readily separate the concept of Prestige from that of Culture?

 

[poser002]

Wow this is a very very long post lol. Very nice ideas still reading over alot of them lol. Just one thing i noticed thoe is there going to be one major mod file or a few single mod files? I noticed thur the post there were a few dif mod files attached will have to download all them and upload them to a single mod folder or u going to make a full mod out of them all and post it?

Also i have not read everyting so this might have been posted but have u guys thought about making single tech trees for races? I saw something about 18 single tech trees not sure what it was yet going back to reread the whole post. But i mean to have key things for dif races. Like take away the pyramids from everyone but just a egypt leader. And say stoneheage to just what is it a ireland or one of those countrys up there lol. The great wall of china could be added just for china. Well atleast for world wonders the tech trees could work. Maybe make dif kinds of units for each race. Like america could have the f-15's f-14's the phantom and russia would have the mig line's. Germany would have the panzer and tiger tanks why america would have the sherman and russia the t-34 just to give u an idea.

 

[poser002]

Could look in to ceaser games and the pharo or what ever the other game they made was. They had a huge thing in that game based on Cultural stuff. Like they had temples, shrines, simples of the gods.

 

[Son of Moose]

Poser002

Welcome to this thread!!

In answer to your questions:

is there going to be one major mod file or a few single mod files

This is actually an extremely good question. Initially I would have thought that there would be just ONE fairly large major mod file .... which seems to represent the more conventonal route to follow with a mod. However your query has caused me to think a bit:

Would it be feasible (or perhaps preferable) to try to develop this mod as a MODULAR project consisting of separate files which would house separate (but related) gameplay features? This would probably be extremely difficult to implement (I think that we would have to ask FexFX for his opinion on this matter) but it might provide future players with a vastly increased level of flexibility.

After all, perhaps certain (non-core) features might not be to everyone's liking. Perhaps some people might like to stop after the Ancient, Classical or Medieval era. A modular design might permit different people to try different versions of this mod. This would be a HUGE advantage .... but it might not be a viable proposition.

I noticed thur the post there were a few dif mod files attached will have to download all them and upload them to a single mod folder or u going to make a full mod out of them all and post it?

These are either other people's mods (generously shared with us) or prototypes of this mod. As stated above, we will have to wait and see ....

Also i have not read everyting so this might have been posted but have u guys thought about making single tech trees for races?

Yes .... but it was considered as highly impractical and nigh impossible to implement. Personally, I feel that the idea of restricting certain Wonders to their appropriate civilizations is highly restrictive and limiting (it actually removes certain features from the default game) .... this is something which is totally contrary to the philosophy of the LITTLE mod.

We are actually looking to add relevant technologies, buildings, resources, etc. to the game!!

 

[poser002]

[Indeed, maybe a new concept of "Prestige" could thereby be introduced into the game. It would possibly lead to distinct military benefits (? possibly increased military unit hitpoints)].



Any further ideas about these additional structures and how one could readily separate the concept of Prestige from that of Culture? [/QUOTE]

well u could have culture just be to make the people happy. Dif buildings will make the people happy. Prestige could be more on the miltary side of the game. Higher prestige makes it so ur troops have more stats, hitpoints def dmg, also maybe prestige could be tied in to the tech tree. Prestige would upen up new units. So say ur in the 1930-1960 era u would get the next new tank or air craft. Start out with a fighter plan of early ww2 then as u move up in prestige u would start to unlock better fighters and soon jets and heavy bombers so on. Tanks u would start with teh panzar then tiger teh t-34 the t-42 the t-74 so on.