Possible collaborative project: Truly Heroic Mod

[FexFX]

Change <iNukeExplosionRand> to 0 for nuclear power plants, but make sure they cost, say, triple the price of a coal plant. Also, if you make nuke plants a -1 happiness you do you might want to consider increasing the health penalty of coal plants (else no one will buy the nuke plants). The health penalties of coal plants are vastly understated anyway; they're the number one cause of pollution world-wide. They also put thousands of tons of radium, thorium, and uranium straight into the atmosphere every year, just so we all can have the joys of breathing the highly radioactive elements we no longer get from above-ground bomb testing.

Max

Personally I am against utterly removing this from the game...
However I think that we should learn enough programming to make the penalty more realistic. Yes the chance should be reduced, BUT the side effect of a meltdown should be that after a meltdown, all nuke plants begin producing increasing ammounts of unhappiness the longer they are around...

HOWEVER this sort of addition demands that we have a way to decommission them...In theory this is possible by building a fake building to take their place...which would make sense...
Modern Nuclear power plants (there are a few in the world) operate on a saftey system so elaborate that the only way for a meltdown to occur (literally) would be for gravity to stop working (literally).

 

[maxpublic]

It is not so much the fact of haven them melt down that gets everyone in a uproar this days

Very few people get in an uproar. Just the ignorant ones, fanned into action by environmentalists who believe that nuclear power is the tool of Satan.

it is the fact of what to do with the extra waste. Like righ tnow till i belive it was 2010 we are shiping over 100 load's of the waste to nevada to store it in the new goverment mt/cave they built to store it there. That is the real prom with nuke planets is we dont know what to do with the extra crap we make form it.

Sure we do. The Yucca Mountain facility is a great way to store the waste; the Swedes have an even better set of facilities (rated for 10,000 years).

BTW, only a tiny fraction of the waste being stored in the U.S. is from nuclear power plants; the vast majority comes from other sources, like medical devices, meat packing plants, and so on. So unless you want to do without x-ray machines....

As for storage: even if your storage facility is only rated for 1,000 years, I can't believe that anyone would think that in a millenia we wouldn't be so technologically advanced that we couldn't solve that problem. It's as if the people screaming about 'just' 1,000 years seem to think we'll still be stuck in the 20th century, having completely halted all technologically progress so we can forever watch variations on "Seinfeld" and "Friends".

The hover dame life time is comming up and as it is one of the hugest dame's in the world is a huge reason to start to look in to ways to upgrade them.

The Hoover Dam is in excellent shape and isn't in any need of being replaced. It really is a technological marvel, which might explain it's (former) inclusion as a Wonder in Civ.

Like i think solor power needs to be pushed more on the people as it is cheaper way and better for the envirerment then burning gas's.

Solar power is one of the dirtiest forms of power around. The manufacturing of solar cells produces more than twenty extremely toxic chemical compounds - and lots of them. Some aren't regulated and are dumped directly into public landfills.

If you were to outfit your home with solar panels, that one act would do more damage to the environment than I could do in my entire lifetime using energy generated from hydropower. It's one of the dirty little secrets that environmentalists seem to continually forget when they harp on about the wonders of solar energy. The collection of power isn't polluting; the making of the solar cells is, and badly so.

That might be a good game add thoe to have oil tankers. To have oil fields and if u have alot of oil fields could use it as export and up the dmg of oil spills on ur coast. Could make it that if u have wild life in the sea there it dies and makes it that u cant use so many sq's off that cost for use with ships. Like a hgue tanker spill u cant use the next 50 sq's around that are till it is cleaned up.

I don't think that'd meet the 'fun' quotient of this mod. It'd be a sort of return to the pollution mechanic of the old Civs, only on a more variable basis - and people absolutely hated that (I know I did).

Max

 

[FexFX]

At this point its not the idea of nuclear technology that's bad, but our initial implementation.

Even with a very low failure rate, the consequences of a failure are CATASTROPHIC.

Imagine if Chernobyl were to have happened in upstate New York. Not really hard to imagine...

BUT the real problem is that people are to frightened and reactionary to realize that Chernobyl was an old style plant using older technology. Heck that was 20 years ago! Things have advance a tad since then!

We now have the ability to produce Nuclear power plants with an effective ZERO risk of meltdown, and no measurable waste...however if you attach the word nuclear to anything, it gets an instant bad rap!

PRIME EXAMPLE. the wonderful technology called MRI...Its name was shortened. The REAL name should be NMRI. It stands for Nuclear Magnetic Resonance Imaging. Early marketing research found that people were reluctant to have anything used on them which had nuclear in the name, so by removing the N, MRI is now a much beloved technology...

People are stupid.

...and although the radicals are few in number, the armies of the dumb are vast beyond number! The Facist Media Corporations feed on our fear and panic and so every time you hear about Nuclear Power Plants, its becuase they are DANGEROUS, or have a HISTORY OF MELTDOWNS...

Facts are secondary to the media...our reaction is all that matters.

...


...

Which leads me to an interesting line of thought. This Mod needs a new government type based on the Media! Maybe call it Mediocrity?

 

[FexFX]

LateNiteAdvisor

Thank you so much for your support!!


Then you might hopefully be interested in the following possible additional buildings for the Ancient and Classical eras:

Craft-related buildings:

They all provide various much-needed early Health and Happiness bonuses to each city in which they are built:

· Perfumer’s House/Shop (requires Incense)
· Mason’s House/Shop (requires Stone)
· Sculptor’s House/Shop (requires Marble)
· Basket Maker’s House/Shop (requires xxx tech)
· Furnisher’s House/Shop (requires xxx tech)
· Sandal Maker’s House/Shop (requires xxx tech)
· Mat Maker’s House/Shop (requires xxx tech)
· Jeweler’s House/Shop (requires Gems)
· Baker’s House/Shop (requires xxx tech)
· Cosmetician’s House/Shop (requires Dyes)
· Weaver’s House/Shop (requires xxx tech)
· Potter’s House/Shop (requires xxx tech)
· Papyrus Maker’s House/Shop (requires xxx tech)


Defensive structures:

They all provide early defensive bonuses to each city in which they are built:

· Palisade walls
· City Walls [only defensive structure in the default game]
· Fortified Walls
· Citadel Walls
· Watch Tower
· Sentry Tower
· Guard Tower
· Ballista Tower

Two sets of triple improvements for walls and towers

Is this a good idea that will provide even more purpose to the vastly expanded Ancient and Classical eras or something rather excessive?

Some of these I like and some I do not...They are not bad ideas, just too many...

If we put in 50 things that add culture...we have to drastically increase the ammount of culture needed to win the game, and how much culture it takes to grow to each level.

If we Put in 50 things that cuase hapiness, then unhappiness will NEVER happen unless we add 50 things that Cause unhappiness.

Too Much money will disrupt the economy.

Too Much Health makes everyone too healthy...

Balance...

The game is balances quite well in its default form, we should see balance and counterbalance.

I am compling a list of buildings I definitely feel should be in the game from those listed in this thread.

Note with my military buildings they do not throw off balance as they are all very specilized and they replace a more globalized Barracks. Yes this means that you need more buildings to achieve identical effect, however it garauntees no change in balance.

 

[FexFX]

As to Walls and Towers etc...

I think these are good ideas, but should begin by aproaching walls in a more balanced manner.

Each successive wall should obsolete the previous wall.

I agree with Pallisades and City Walls...But the rest may need tweaking to avoid a glut of defensive bonuses...

Perhaps we could go pallisades, and then Walls...
And then at some point obsolete walls, requiring a new type of wall be built...

 

[FexFX]

Here is what I have so far for proposed buildings. Please not I took some of the ideas in this forum and balanced them in relation to eachother as well as I could. Also some of these items require techs only found on my ongoing tech chart...

Barracks - +1 EXP level for MELEE UNITS ONLY
Archery Range - +1 EXP Level for ARCHERY UNITS
Equestrian Academy - +1 EXP Level for MOUNTED UNITS
Shooting Range - +1 EXP Level for GUNPOWDER UNITS
Armory - +1 EXP for ARMORED UNITS
AirForce Academy - +1 EXP for Air Units.
Naval Academy - +1 EXP for NAval Units.
Special Forces Adademy - +1 EXP for special forces units.
Officer's Candidate School(OCS) - +1 in addition to any other Academies.
WONDER: West Point - changed to OCS in every city rather than +4 for one city.

Wain Wright - Required to make Chariots (possibly other wagon like units with SDK...Caravans, More efficient settlers...) (Requires a Carpenter)
Siege Workshop - Required to build Siege Units. (Requires a Carpenter)
Stables - Required to build Mounted Units. (Requires a Carpenter).
Fletcher - Required to build Archery Units.
WeaponSmith - Required to build Melee units Axemen and above.
Gunsmith - Required to make early Gunpowder units
Ship Wright - Required to naval units. (Requires a Carpenter)

Military Recruiter - Reduced unit build time (this would be a way to counterbalance slowing unit building down for game length)

Rituals: a "building" which predates the Obelisk. +1 Culture. Obsolete with Mysticism stops making culture when obsolete. Requires Belief.

Totem: Also Predates the Obelisk. +1 Culture. Obsolete with the building of a temple. Stops making Cuture when obsolete. Requires Symbolism.

Mythos: a "building" which predates the Obelisk. +1 Culture. Obsolete with Monotheism.

Herbalist: +1 Health. Requires Herbalism.

Apothecary: +1 Health. Obsoletes Herbalist.

Barber: +1 Health. Requires Bloodletting.

Public Baths: +1 Health. Requires Aquaduct and Cleanliness. Obsolete with Fuedalism.

Surgeon's Guild: +1 Health. Replaces Bloodletting.

Carpenter: Required to build a variety of other units and buildings. +1 Commerce. +1 Build.

Mason: Required to build many buildings and wonders.(Wall and Pyramid for example)

Townhall: -10% to city maitenance, +1 culture. Prerequisite for a Courthouse.

Sewer System - requires aqueduct, requires civil service, +1 health.

Wastewater Treatment Plant - requires Sewer System, requires industrialism. +1 health.

Park: +1 happiness, +1 health, +1 culture. Requires liberalism.

Mall: +25% gold, +2 merchant slots, +1 happiness, +2 culture. (Prereq Bazaar? Obsoletes prereq)

Jewler: +1 Cuture, +1 Hapiness (With Bazaar or better +1 Commerce) Requires Artisanship + Gems.

Monument +1 Culture: Requires something Between Construction and engineering and Nationalism.

National Museum of Military History: +2 EXP to military units in this city. +1 Culture.

National Park: +1 happiness, +1 health, +4 culture. Requires Nationalism. Requires a park in the same city. Requires 5 parks total. (National Wonder)

National Wildlife Preserve +1 happiness, +1 health, +4 culture Requires Nationalism and Liberalism. Requires a park in the same city. Requires 5 parks total. (National Wonder)

National Monument. +1 Happiness, +4 culture. Requires Nationalism. Requires 5 Monuments.

National Museum of Natural History. +5% Science +2 Culture. Great People Science Bonus.

National Museum of Art. +4 Culture. Great People Artist Bonus.

National Treasury: Requires 5 Banks. +10% gold globally.

 

[FexFX]

Modified Weaponsmith to include Axemen.

 

[miragechaser]

Solar power is one of the dirtiest forms of power around. The manufacturing of solar cells produces more than twenty extremely toxic chemical compounds - and lots of them. Some aren't regulated and are dumped directly into public landfills.

If you were to outfit your home with solar panels, that one act would do more damage to the environment than I could do in my entire lifetime using energy generated from hydropower. It's one of the dirty little secrets that environmentalists seem to continually forget when they harp on about the wonders of solar energy. The collection of power isn't polluting; the making of the solar cells is, and badly so.
Max

​

Most power plants use mirrors, not photo-electric cells to generate power. Cells are extremely inefficient at generating power on any large scale. Solar power plants use mirrors to focus sunlight on a tower of water to heat it and create steam for turbines. Also many solar panels equipped on houses use it to generate heat, not electricity. The drawback of solar power is its difficulty and expense to implement, as not very many places have the land or climate to make it reliable not an environmentalist conspiracy to destroy the world.

 

[FexFX]

Modified Town hall down to -10%

 

[FexFX]

Removed City Monument from list as Redundant to Monument

 

[FexFX]

Here is the latest version of my tech chart.

43 new techs two of which are still being considered.

That effectively makes the tech tree 50% larger than normal.
Also more than half of the techs before steel have been changed in some way.

 

[maxpublic]

Most power plants use mirrors, not photo-electric cells to generate power.

Modern solar power plants are, as you pointed out, extremely inefficient. But I was speaking of the most common form of solar power around - panels. As in, the sort you mount on the roof of your home. The production of panels is a highly toxic affair.

Also many solar panels equipped on houses use it to generate heat, not electricity.

It doesn't matter what you do with the cells, it's the manufacturing process that's faulty. Even if they sit in your garage, the very fact that they were made at all means that by purchasing them you did more to pollute the environment than I ever will by using hydropower.

The drawback of solar power is its difficulty and expense to implement, as not very many places have the land or climate to make it reliable not an environmentalist conspiracy to destroy the world.

I never said anything about environmentalists trying to destroy the world. I was commenting on their ignorance when I pointed out that solar power cells - a technology they think is just the greatest thing around - is an incredibly dirty way to generate power.

But then, these are the same people who managed to export all of our logging problems to the Third World and think that's perfectly okay, so long as the forests in their own back yard are never touched by human hands. The same people who used to sing the praises of wind power, and who're now demanding that all the wind farms in California, New Mexico and Arizona be torn down because an occasional bird flies into the fans. The same people who want every dam in America destroyed because dams are giant testaments to human ingenuity, a thing that they despise. The same people who whined and moaned about a human-caused Ice Age in the '60's and '70's, who've conveniently forgotten their error so they can whine and moan about a human-caused greenhouse effect in the 21st century (funny how they've managed to sweep the whole ice age thing under the rug).

Conspiracy to destroy the world? Nope. Conspiracy to destroy the human beings who 'sin' against their precious earth goddess? That I'll buy.

Max

 

[FexFX]

Okay, can we move the debate to a different thread if its going to continue?
...I am posting info and details about the mod and it keeps getting burried behind an argument.

I'm not trying to be a grouch but a debate like this could go on for aeons.

Meanwhile, anyone got any feedback on my tech chart?

 

[maxpublic]

Okay, can we move the debate to a different thread if its going to continue?

Sorry, I'll try to restrain myself.

Max

 

[FexFX]

Sorry, I'll try to restrain myself.

Max

Thanks for understanding...its just too easy to watch a thread get hijacked.

 

[FexFX]

So do we have any thoughts on Nukes?
Does anyone feel they are too weak?
Does anyone feel we should subdivide nukes?
Suitcase nukes, Tactical nukes, ICBMs, Crust Crackers?
Perhaps a Fusion bomb with the discovery of fusion?

 

[Son of Moose]

FexFX, et al.

Sorry for my somewhat delayed response but my e-mail notification seems to have been faulty.

Anyway, with all due respect to the abovementioned debate on nuclear and solar power, the real "meat" seems to be contained in the last few entries from FexFX.

If we put in 50 things that add culture...we have to drastically increase the ammount of culture needed to win the game, and how much culture it takes to grow to each level.

True .... but that could possibly represent a viable idea as there would most certainly be a LOT more time to build such structures. Perhaps it might be a good idea to make culture an even more important role of the game in this mod .... although correct balancing would be essential

If we Put in 50 things that cuase hapiness, then unhappiness will NEVER happen unless we add 50 things that Cause unhappiness.

Likewise, we could also either:

(i) Raise the amount of Happiness required to make the people happy and productive. This should well be possible but could be a bit tricky to implement.

(ii) Decrease the amount of Happiness obtained from these additional structures as well as the current default buildings appearing in Vanilla Civ 4. This would probably be even more tricky to implement than the above (with possible half levels of Happiness, etc. ).

(iii) Many of these structures could rather affect Health which would then lead to the development of somewhat larger cities. However, even this parameter could be downwardly balanced so that more health is now required to promote early growth. Imho, this might well present the best alternative and compromise.

The game is balances quite well in its default form, we should see balance and counterbalance.

Indeed .... and we don't really want to "mess" too badly with this balance. However, the possibility of bigger cities just might just present us with a suitable compromise .... as this has been a feature requested by MANY people.

 

[Son of Moose]

FexFX

Each successive wall should obsolete the previous wall.

Yes .... I actually meant for them to function as upgrades from the most basic to the most advanced version!!

But the rest may need tweaking to avoid a glut of defensive bonuses

I have heard several people complain that the city defences are rather poor in the default version of the game. Maybe some extra defence bonuses might make capturing cities a little more challenging.


I am "playing catch-up" here .... but your initial list is REALLY impressive!!!

Maybe we might even have a couple of classes of monument (small and large, or whatever) .... although this might prove to be excessive.

 

[Son of Moose]

FexFx

I have just downloaded your new Tech tree and will look at it a bit later .... but, if it is anything like your new build list, it should be singularly impressive.

Does anyone feel they are too weak?

Reading through the various forums, a LOT of people seem to think so.

Perhaps a Fusion bomb with the discovery of fusion

H-bombs might be kinda interesting and could be employed to rectify the abovementioned nuke problem!!

 

[Shqype]

At this point its not the idea of nuclear technology that's bad, but our initial implementation.

Even with a very low failure rate, the consequences of a failure are CATASTROPHIC.

Imagine if Chernobyl were to have happened in upstate New York. Not really hard to imagine...

BUT the real problem is that people are to frightened and reactionary to realize that Chernobyl was an old style plant using older technology. Heck that was 20 years ago! Things have advance a tad since then!

We now have the ability to produce Nuclear power plants with an effective ZERO risk of meltdown, and no measurable waste...however if you attach the word nuclear to anything, it gets an instant bad rap!

PRIME EXAMPLE. the wonderful technology called MRI...Its name was shortened. The REAL name should be NMRI. It stands for Nuclear Magnetic Resonance Imaging. Early marketing research found that people were reluctant to have anything used on them which had nuclear in the name, so by removing the N, MRI is now a much beloved technology...

People are stupid.

...and although the radicals are few in number, the armies of the dumb are vast beyond number! The Facist Media Corporations feed on our fear and panic and so every time you hear about Nuclear Power Plants, its becuase they are DANGEROUS, or have a HISTORY OF MELTDOWNS...

Facts are secondary to the media...our reaction is all that matters.

...


...

Which leads me to an interesting line of thought. This Mod needs a new government type based on the Media! Maybe call it Mediocrity?

Have you ever seen the movie "The China Syndrom?"