Post Game Thoughts

[damnrunner]

Spent way too long browsing the other team forums. Found some good highlights.

From Q
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=436997
Fun quote "I actually think we have a 75-80% chance of building the Broadway. I don't think Amazon has cities that can compete with the hammer output of Continuum." They had 100 hammers per turn for Broadway according to a screen shot, obviously they were unaware of the Vandal.

Could find no postings from the Q forum on the Sirius war – to bad as it would be interesting to read their side of the story. They

Sirius
The disastrous Sirius invasion of Q begins here - post #138.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=417344&page=7
Posting drops off quickly though and I can't find anything relating to when we joined the fight. Would be interesting reading if anyone can find it.

CDZ
There are totally of only about 200 posts in the CDZ forums – most recent August 2010.

Mav
The Mav forum goes dark after they merge with Merlot. Did not spend much time here.

Merlot
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=364007
Merlot hating on the AMAZON way of life at the get go. Great read - but they were wrong and democracy does triumph in the end! Oddly the thread then goes into a long game of online Mafia for more posts than the entire CDZ forums.

"These painted harpies curse and shout at the slightest provocation, with scanty, ill-fitting clothes barely protecting their modesty as words turn to actions, and a frenzy of face-scratching and hair-pulling breaks out. Such is the average meeting in the court of the Amazons."

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=359328&page=43
And a fitting follow up quote from the Merlot death spiral thread:
“Yes, well done. I think the monarchs discovered perhaps a slight disadvantage of monarchy -- as they had to do all the hard work, with the rest of us yammering away from the back seat.” They kept pretty active to the end – impressive. I assumed it was all slaze.


The Merlot Turn log is FANTASTIC - Probably the best summary of the game as you get the full M&M perspective with slaze’s excellent turn by turn comments.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=359325&page=11
AMAZON lands on the Merlot home island on turn 204. An apt slaze quote: “During the 300 years of the Diaspora, the slave trade, Europe killed 30-35 million Africans. In 30 years of Imperialism, they killed 100 million with the machine gun.” Sad they did kill widowmaker though. If there any way to get unit-by-unit kills? I suspect we have some with absurdly high numbers of units slaughtered.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=359325&page=7
The defense of Nabaix takes place at turn 123. Following next few turns is the conquest of Marthaland. Glorious AMAZON victory.

Dogged defense of Maverick home island + spoke. Highlights are turn 130, 137, 145, 158, 164, 168, 183-190. Mav’s really chewed up Q. Would have been interesting to see how things would have played out if Mav hit Sirius's stack rather than Q's on turns 183-184. Mave would have died either way but postwar game balance could have been totally different.

 

[damnrunner]

Number of postings by team (noticed this and though it was interesting):
-AMAZON – 23 threads with over 100 postings (good luck other teams in figuring out what we said/did)
-Sirius had 11 – (though one beast with over 3,700
-Maveric’s had 7
-Q had 6
-Merlot had 4 (they were right democracy does equal more talking!)
-CDZ had 0

 

[nabaxo]

Choice quote from Maverick's forum about the Amazon:

My gut response:

We suspect they are rookie players

 

[2metraninja]

Posting drops off quickly though and I can't find anything relating to when we joined the fight. Would be interesting reading if anyone can find it.

Here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=360517&page=182

For me it was interesting to read too. Good memories come to me reading about those turbulent times again. Interesting how their turnplayer was saying to their team what I think was double-moving us after we have made our moves - he says things like "Luckily I've managed to move one transporter full of soldiers so he will be in the city next turn to defend" and so on. Luckily, yeah, right. Luckily my аss. I was suspecting him doing this all the time and asked him politely to just not log in after us and to log in only in their half of the timer, but could not prove anything before Sommers caught him with spies and screenshots. It was irritating how his destroyers appeared always at the correct time at the correct spot to thwart our surprising moves, but I could not say anything, as I did not see the whole picture and was not 100% sure.

I spoke after this with AlphaShard and just as I was sure, they were not aware of him doing this at all, so the shame for cheating dont go to their whole team, but only to the actual turnplayer.

 

[nabaxo]

The more I read on the other guys forums, the more of a jerk I feel.

 

[2metraninja]

Choice quote from Maverick's forum about the Amazon:

Yeah, interesting seeing the other teams perspective.

On the other hand, Merlots was referring to us as "the only other good team" beside their own.

 

[2metraninja]

The more I read on the other guys forums, the more of a jerk I feel.

Jerk? Why jerk? What you mean? I felt good Amazon is the most mentioned team - we are always mentioned either with respect, with fear, with anger, but never with disrespect. As it turns out, we were power to be recognized.

 

[damnrunner]

Jerk? Why jerk? What you mean? I felt good Amazon is the most mentioned team - we are always mentioned either with respect, with fear, with anger, but never with disrespect. As it turns out, we were power to be recognized.

The righteous power of democracy AND good looks!

 

[damnrunner]

Here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=360517&page=182

Thanks for the link - some choice excerpts follow

1
Disaster have stuck!
Procyon and Arcturus razed. I don't know how they manage to do it. Better... i can imagine how they did with Procyon, but Arcturus was impossible to reach. Logged again.
They have a GG Cav with Commando. Who was the one researching MS? damn him!
-That was a beautiful blitz! From later posting I presume they were unaware we had city visibility.

2
It was all there in text in the forums, but I honestly do conceed the point that if you're busy actually playing the turns you don't have time to wade through all the legal mumbo-jumbo that Amazon spammed out.
-Sommers, queen of the mumbo jumbo!

3
Ama managed to steal AL too. At this point i'd like to know what is the advantage in keep an high research if anyone with enough EPs can steal anything. In any case Ama strted spend EPs on us long before they broke the NAP, otherwise it won't be possible to steal 2 expensive techs.
-Did no one realize how much espy we had?

4
We caught a spy last turn, but they probably have an army of spies and a lot of EP buildings. And we built not even a CH in any city.
-Seriously, was the mass poisoning of Merlot cities not noticed? Yes we had quite the army of spies.


5
Ama completely wiped out stack in the Center.
2MG, 13 Inf, 3 Cavs, 8 arties = 26 units gone. to 11 of theirs. They have many almost dead units, but totally unreachable, so they can heal. ............ Now, i'll play until i'm really tired, just to try to wipe some units here and there and maybe take a city or two. Then i will pass it to the AI.
-Another glorious AMAZON victory at the core. Would have been interesting if Blub had the same fighting spirit as slaze and was willing to go down in a blaze of glory. We were going to win but could have bled a lot more in the process.

6
Their strategy is clear now: a powerful army, a lot of espionage, poor research and a good diplo.
-Only now?

7
Set Esp to 20%, i'm curious to see Ama's graphs.
-Wow they needed 20% culture just to see our graphs.

 

[AlphaShard]

I hope it's ok to post here since everything is public now, but item 6 I realized much much sooner then our... General.

 

[2metraninja]

3
Ama managed to steal AL too. At this point i'd like to know what is the advantage in keep an high research if anyone with enough EPs can steal anything. In any case Ama strted spend EPs on us long before they broke the NAP, otherwise it won't be possible to steal 2 expensive techs.
-Did no one realize how much espy we had?

Not only that, but he was so overconfident with his superiority, that he kept Spot B instead of razing it, thus allowing us to steal BOTH Artillery and AL at the cost of what otherwise would have taken us to steal only the less expensive of the two because of the big culture we had in Spot B. That I was expecting him to keep it after capturing and had bunch of spies sitting to get to 50% discount there long before the city actually fell, so we were ready to steal at incredibly low cost helped to get those 2 crucial techs a lot of course

 

[Sommerswerd]

Blubmuz keeping spot B was just one example of teams just not knowing how to handle our Espy numbers. TBH, we had a good shot to win from the beginning on Espy alone... As Blubmuz correctly said, we would have just stolen any tech they denied us. So all that talk of leaving the ETTT was pure pipe dreams. We would have stolen anything they teched at any time they left ETTT, and we would have sabotaged their SS parts no matter what. This was the plan from turn 1, check the threads.

The reality is the doom of Sirius was sealed the moment they started talking about leaving the ETTT. They did not percieve that them Leaving only helped us not them.

Mighty slaze's turnlog puts me to shame BTW, Im glad he kept such a good log to display the effect of the Espy attacks so clearly... Also I feel some pride that in the end we did finally force them into a STRIKE.

I also greatly appreciate the manliness of Alphashard and socralynneck to stick in it to the end. I would team with those guys any day

And DaveShack as always for being a gracious host. Sorry you did not get that win at last Dave . Play on my team next time

 

[BLubmuz]

Mav’s really chewed up Q. Would have been interesting to see how things would have played out if Mav hit Sirius's stack rather than Q's on turns 183-184. Mave would have died either way but postwar game balance could have been totally different.

We asked Q to coordinate the invasion, but they never answered. When i arrived in sight of Mav's coast, i've seen Q stack and, since i knew Mavs has a big stack of cats, i did not landed. I did it next turn, then after some fight Mavs started to delete units to deny us GG points, i suppose. That was the moment when i started thinking to destroy Q.
Big mistake! I should have turned on Amazon, while you has all your army busy with Merlots.
One thing i can't understand is why Q kept all his army on ships. At the time i think they won't expect any attack from Sirius. Stupid me to not have concetrated only on their Capital.

 

[cav scout]

We asked Q to coordinate the invasion, but they never answered. When i arrived in sight of Mav's coast, i've seen Q stack and, since i knew Mavs has a big stack of cats, i did not landed. I did it next turn, then after some fight Mavs started to delete units to deny us GG points, i suppose. That was the moment when i started thinking to destroy Q.
Big mistake! I should have turned on Amazon, while you has all your army busy with Merlots.
One thing i can't understand is why Q kept all his army on ships. At the time i think they won't expect any attack from Sirius. Stupid me to not have concetrated only on their Capital.

We ignored your request to coordinate the invasion because we didn't want to share cities with you guys on the Mav home island. We knew that we were your next target after the MAVs and that we would quickly loose Injina to you in a post-Mav war. So we were hoping that Slaze would maul you guys and we could pick up the pieces and get the whole island.

As far as keeping the troops in the ships- I knew you guys were coming eventually so I set a trap for you. I was surprised your team attacked as soon as you did though with the forces you had available and the NAP and all. From your team forum it looks like you were lone wolving and unilaterly decided to charge-in (despite the fact that your team deduced I had some hidden units).

 

[BLubmuz]

We ignored your request to coordinate the invasion because we didn't want to share cities with you guys on the Mav home island. We knew that we were your next target after the MAVs and that we would quickly loose Injina to you in a post-Mav war. So we were hoping that Slaze would maul you guys and we could pick up the pieces and get the whole island.

Your no-answer was what drove me to decide to attack you. We could have easily traded 1-2 cities N of your home island for the complete control on the Mav's island. Pyramids were already basically obsolete, thus there was nothing worth if not the land.

As far as keeping the troops in the ships- I knew you guys were coming eventually so I set a trap for you. I was surprised your team attacked as soon as you did though with the forces you had available and the NAP and all. From your team forum it looks like you were lone wolving and unilaterly decided to charge-in (despite the fact that your team deduced I had some hidden units).

I decided the moment, but we were 3 in favour and 1 or 2 against the attack or on the fence. Yours was a very good move, i already congratulate on you for that (i think). Stupid me for not have looked at the power graphs (we has clear view of all your cities), thing i always do in solo before to attack, so doubly stupid. Then, on a crucial turn for the war, RL made me lose the turn and no other Sirius player took it in charge. It was when i has some destroyer and transport and you only wooden ships. That was the point where we started lose the game, i think.

I already posted elsewhere what the main mistake really was.

 

[damnrunner]

Not only that, but he was so overconfident with his superiority, that he kept Spot B instead of razing it, thus allowing us to steal BOTH Artillery and AL at the cost of what otherwise would have taken us to steal only the less expensive of the two because of the big culture we had in Spot B. That I was expecting him to keep it after capturing and had bunch of spies sitting to get to 50% discount there long before the city actually fell, so we were ready to steal at incredibly low cost helped to get those 2 crucial techs a lot of course

And that is why you are the AMAZON's ninja general and defender of Nabaxica

 

[BLubmuz]

Not only that, but he was so overconfident with his superiority, that he kept Spot B instead of razing it, thus allowing us to steal BOTH Artillery and AL at the cost of what otherwise would have taken us to steal only the less expensive of the two because of the big culture we had in Spot B. That I was expecting him to keep it after capturing and had bunch of spies sitting to get to 50% discount there long before the city actually fell, so we were ready to steal at incredibly low cost helped to get those 2 crucial techs a lot of course

Wrong!
As you know, i'm a newbie (no shame to admit this, it's the plain thruth) in multiplayer so i always think in terms of AI. I know it's wrong. If i play an MP game i MUST think i have to face humans.

But there's another thing i think you have to know. I never use active espionage in my solo games. I know the mechanics, sure, but simply i don't use it. Despite i always play between Monarch and Immortal difficulty, usually i have a so great tech superiority over the AIs and when i start a war i usually quickly steam roll them at a point that even if they manage to steal me a tech, i don't care.

So, i wasn't "over confident", simply i did not thought to the espionage possibilities i opened for you keeping that city. Espionage is out of my style of play.
It's a mistake to not have considered this aspect of a MP game and to never looked to the Esp. screen. Only after you stolen those (you're correct) crucial techs i realized what a chicken i was. Too late, i suppose.
To my - partial - discharge, you know that i started this game to learn something in MP games. Mission accomplished, but what a cost for Sirius. OTOH i doubt that other members active in those days could have done better. The few ones with some MP skills left long before we took the Mavs Island.
I think that you can't find a single row in all the Sirius thread about Espionage, thus i guess i was in good company.
Obviously, being a good and well esteemed solo player, those mistakes are a true pain, but you know, live and learn. It's a game after all and the fun is also this kind of discussions.

 

[damnrunner]

BLubmuz - hope you join MTDG III -- chance to settle scores AND learn!

It is likely a MTDG III won't have tech trading, so alliance politics probably will take a different flavor. And along those lines having more war mongering minded folks will certainly spice up the game a bit.

 

[damnrunner]

For some good reading on the logic behind AMAZON's deft diplomacy I suggest the following:

The Creation of the 4v2 ETTT (check out post #27)
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=369231

Post M&M War What Now?
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=425997

 

[cav scout]

Your no-answer was what drove me to decide to attack you.

I highly doubt that since your own Forum reveals that your team was planning on attacking the Continuum for quite some time, well before you even started warring with the Mavs.

Your comments from the very beginning of the game were very war-mongering and its easy to see you were just itching to attack. One thing to be aware of is that by violating the NAP against human opponents this game you have created a reputation for yourself as untrustworthy. That reputation will follow you into future games and is going to harm/influence how others view your team.