Post patch.. SE worth it??

N

NaZdReG

Warmonger
Joined
Jun 15, 2006
Messages
553
Not trying to spark the debate again, but my most recent experience taking a crack at the SE blew up in my face. continents as China w/ industrius/prot.

2nd city founded near stone, got the pyramids at 980bc. decent location but surrounded on all sides by the AI. ended up getting slammed by 2 of them with cats and eles. probably my fault for beelining to machinery w/ a great engineer but the question is:

now that we're looking at 500 hammers is it really worth it to shoot for the pyramids?? had I dropped cottages instead of farms and spent that on axemen and settlers I would have had much more territory and army right about the point where I started to lose against the AI.

just wanted to get some input from our usually SE devotees.. are you having the same success you used to? if so is it to the same advantage as before? thoughts?

NaZ
 
The patch really nerfed both great early economy options (CS Slingshot and Pyramids/SE) I believe that SE took a big fall though, as CE doesn't rely solely on CS, it can still be very effective without. However, particularly on high difficulty, wonders are really hard to get. Missing the Pyramids will get you some cash, but the wasted time not getting axes/settlers/workers will kill you on Emperor and up.
 
SE never relied on Piramids. Your mistake is to try and get it by any cost.
General development comes first.
 
mutineer,

i believe futurehermit would disagree with you on that point. representation is NESSESSARY to keep up with a CE until you make that eventual transition. given my recent experience I'd rather run a CE with a non financial civ than try to take up soo many hammers on the pyramids

NaZ
 
Although I agree with Mutineer that an SE doesn't necessarily need Pyramids, I don't think it needed any form of nerfing, such as making Pyramids more expensive. We all know cottage spam is favoured by 99% of civ players. Must we see that go up to 99.99%? Yet another bad decision by the developers?
 
Pyramids is still very viable, ESPECIALLY with stone + industrious.

I can't see how you lost imo. If you let the AI get construction AND build up an army of catas + elephants and you weren't ready, you need more practice with the SE imo.

Don't bash the strat if you can't pull it off. Don't forget that pyramids also opens up police state, which I'll use to crank out an army if I feel I will need military asap. In fact, if you don't have libraries up and running yet, representation isn't essential. Just hit police state and chop/whip an army. Doesn't take long to get one out with that.

Then, once you have libraries up, switch to representation and fly towards liberalism.

Once I have the pyramids up I routinely hit liberalism first AND have the largest empire after lengthy periods of warring.

SE doesn't rely on pyramids, but it is FAR more powerful with it. That being said, if you're philosophical it can still be powerful without pyramids. Pyramids + philosophical = gg.
 
Well I'm playing post-patch warlords and I can tell you it is possible, especially with industrious/stone. I play monarch/emperor continents normal.
 
I can count the number of times I've ever started near stone with my hands. Don't even talk about having stone nearby while playing an Industrious leader.

Post-patch, I can tell you, there is a hair's difference between challenge and frustration. Alternatively, you can just warmonger your way to victory. Or you can go down 2-3 levels and trash the AI in every way. How interesting.
 
Well, stone is situational. But when was pyramids ever viable without industrious and/or stone? With industrious I'll still go for it with a high-production/high-forest start. But that is also same as always. Basically, nothing has changed for me and I haven't noticed any difference in my games. Pyramids is still expensive, like it always was. And if I get it and run a SE I can dominate, same as always.

That being said, I'm playing a lot of napoleon lately. You always want to cottage your capital regardless and I've been going with a worker-pottery opening. Get down a couple early cottages, especially if there is floodplains. Basically, I'll go pottery-mining-bronze-ah-myst (for border-popping)-iron-writing-alphabet. Then I set my research to 0% using scientists for a slow research rate and just go hog-wild with a sword-axe-spear army expanding to the nines. I don't know how effective it will be in the long run cuz I'm just starting but it's much different than I normally play and it's pretty fun. If I find stone nearby, I'll consider the pyramids (always good), but if not I'll go CE and the early cottages are handy (although they conflict with getting production up asap unless on floodplains).
 
futurehermit said:
Well, stone is situational. But when was pyramids ever viable without industrious and/or stone?
Click to expand...

Exactly. So why make it even more expensive? I never really bother with the wonder, except in OCC, but I still think this is a really dumb change.

futurehermit said:
That being said, I'm playing a lot of napoleon lately. You always want to cottage your capital regardless and I've been going with a worker-pottery opening. Get down a couple early cottages, especially if there is floodplains. Basically, I'll go pottery-mining-bronze-ah-myst (for border-popping)-iron-writing-alphabet. Then I set my research to 0% using scientists for a slow research rate and just go hog-wild with a sword-axe-spear army expanding to the nines. I don't know how effective it will be in the long run cuz I'm just starting but it's much different than I normally play and it's pretty fun. If I find stone nearby, I'll consider the pyramids (always good), but if not I'll go CE and the early cottages are handy (although they conflict with getting production up asap unless on floodplains).
Click to expand...

I don't play Napoleon anymore simply because I'm too comfortable playing as him. Doesn't make for interesting games. Same reason why I don't want to go for an early war or conquer my continent anymore. Not that I play much anymore anyway.
 
I think, if anything, it is EASIER to get the Pyramids after the patch. Sure, it is 25% more expensive in hammers, but - and this is the major point - the AI will build them SIGNIFICANTLY later than before the patch, if at all. I have been surprised, generally, at how late the pyramids are built in each of my post patch games when I haven't built them myself... granted, I play prince and monarch games, but I believe it is likely the same on higher difficulties. It seems the AI values wonders in general less after the patch, and it also appears that the added cost makes the Pyramids less desirable for the AI

Also, if you consider the approach of getting early metal casting and using a GE from a forge to get the pyramids, that gambit is actually more realistic now, independent of how you get to Metal Casting... of course, if you need to research it, you will lose valuable time with assigned scientists in your largest cities, but the point is, if you DO go for assigning a specialist engineer to get the GE, you are almost assured to get one before the AI builds the pyramids

/Andreas
 
dime said:
I think, if anything, it is EASIER to get the Pyramids after the patch. Sure, it is 25% more expensive in hammers, but - and this is the major point - the AI will build them SIGNIFICANTLY later than before the patch, if at all. I have been surprised, generally, at how late the pyramids are built in each of my post patch games when I haven't built them myself... granted, I play prince and monarch games, but I believe it is likely the same on higher difficulties. It seems the AI values wonders in general less after the patch, and it also appears that the added cost makes the Pyramids less desirable for the AI

Also, if you consider the approach of getting early metal casting and using a GE from a forge to get the pyramids, that gambit is actually more realistic now, independent of how you get to Metal Casting... of course, if you need to research it, you will lose valuable time with assigned scientists in your largest cities, but the point is, if you DO go for assigning a specialist engineer to get the GE, you are almost assured to get one before the AI builds the pyramids
Click to expand...

Maybe that can happen sometimes. But the AI's decision-making is by no means the same in every game. I don't think Ramesses looks at the increased cost of the Pyramids and thinks "Hey, it's more expensive now. Why should I build it?". The increased cost is worse for you than for the AI, who starts with so many bonuses to help it out early in the game. I dare say it's at least as likely that they build the wonder before you in the long run, if you keep trying it on Monarch and above. I've always followed the safe path and ignored the Pyramids, but I don't find this change sensible at all.
 
^^^

THAT is interesting. With a philosophical civ, it might be a good idea to have another go for that oracle-mc-GE-pyramids gambit we worked on awhile back. Mmmm....Ghandi....drooool.....

aelf said:
Exactly. So why make it even more expensive? I never really bother with the wonder, except in OCC, but I still think this is a really dumb change.

I don't play Napoleon anymore simply because I'm too comfortable playing as him. Doesn't make for interesting games. Same reason why I don't want to go for an early war or conquer my continent anymore. Not that I play much anymore anyway.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I don't know why they made it more expensive either. I think it's still a great wonder though. I really do prefer the SE and not even so much for the economy itself, just because I find that with the CE regrowth after whipping is so slow and I hate that :(

I agree on Nappy. I used to play him all the time in vanilla and now I find myself going to him again. Charismatic is such a powerful trait!!! And I've always had a soft spot for organized. Plus, you gotta love ag-wheel as starting techs. However, that being said, I do get tired of certain civs as well and I also get tired of warring. However, whenever I get tired of warring, I play a cultural game! Then I get a craving for war again :p
 
Well post patch you do have more time to do oracle-metal casting slingshot and run great engineer for pyramids..Pyramids is getting built later as the extra 100 shields slows the ai build further..Of course you need a financial civ to pull it..

Gandhi is particularly good at getting it..research path being
grow building warrior
bw, whip fast worker,reseasrch agri
worker starts prechopping forsts till agri comes and starts irrigating...
second city get a high food city...get a 2nd worker in between who prechops 3 forests in 2nd city
research wheel,meditation,priesthood
start building oracle and grow 2nd city to unhappiness you should get it to pop 4 by 6 turns after oracle is complete...
basically 3 forests give u 60 shields for forge whipping 2 citizen another 60 ..ur left with 2 pop.one of which is assigned engineer

If u have coastal resource get fishing somewhere between...

Fast workers are tremendous in pre-chopping and final chopping saving around 2 turns per forest...

Then you can start the typical se builds...
 
well.. the pyramids is the best wonder in the game...and it doesnt go obsolete..

it'd even make sense to me if it took 1000 hammers..
 
Hi all, i hope i make some sense in the following post.

I have been playing Civ4 for a few months now mostly on Monarch , on Emperor lately. I've also been experimenting lately with getting Pyramids early, testing on different starting locations (with Ghandi).

As most people here know there are basically 3 methods:

- Build directly
- Oracle metal casting gambit
- Great Wall --> GE-->Pyramids

I never bothered with the first method as it's largely dependend on getting stone and besides why not try to get somewhat more out of it as in the second or third method to compensate for the lack of early expansion. The second method was doable on Monarch but there are quite a few botlenecks (having researched the right techs in time, getting oracle in time, getting the forge up in time, getting pyramids in time and not getting killed by barbs in the meantime) that probably makes it hard on emperor.

Third method is my favorite but is also not 100 % sure, basically you chop the great wall (that has never failed) and research to writing afterwards as soon as you have that tech you build the library assign 1 or 2 specialist and hope for a GE (+/-85 % chance) imo this is neccessary because otherwise without the specialists the GE and pyramids will arive to late . Tried 2 times yesterday on emperor, one time i was beaten to it in 775 BC because i didn't get the library up in time, second time it worked.

I wondered if the following would work: start with polytheism, get hinduism, then start BW and chop GW. then after building GW, researching priesthood and building a cheap temple you can assign a priest to speed up the birthrate. It would certainly make the strategy less one sided as now you get:

Great wall
Pyramids
a Religion

to compensate for the lack of early expansion. Haven't tested this yet.

I have never played a SE without pyramids but i tend to agree with Mutineer that you give up too much by building pyramids.Using the great wall method you generally have one city in 800 bc building a settler instead of some 3 growing cities. Representation is surely a boost to SE but i don't think the extra 3 science accounts for more than 20% of research as most of the techs come in via lightbulbing and trading (up to Education that is). After education you'll probably have to reseach for liberalism (hoping to win the race) , Nationalism and Constitution asap as lightbulbing isn't that strong anymore.
This means that you have too wait with researching Scientific method and Biology which is what i tend to do when having pyramids. Having never tried SE without pyramids i'm not sure about this though.
 
Played a few game on deity huge map with 18civs as chinese. only time i attempt build pyramid is when i get bronze working and masonry from goody huts and have access to stone. And I only start building it after i had 3rd city. I use chop+whip to finish it. Other 2 city build units.

pyramid gives a huge boost on deity. If you don't get it, you are stuck with a max of 5 pop for your cities till calendar.
 
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