Power versus Ethics of Slavery Civic

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Well TL;DR can any more experienced player comment on the chop-vs-whip hammers thing? This is the second time I've seen someone claim they get more hammers from chops than whips, and it sounds like utter nonsense to me. I mean, I've never counted but I think I do maybe 20-30 chops over the course of a typical game while I probably crack the whip at least a hundred times, and probably 2 or 3 hundred.

I'm pretty sure i was the first one... haha.

Chopping is basically free hammers. The opportunity cost for chopping is very low (you lose a few worker turns). Its mostly limited by the number of forests.

slavery, on the other hand, is an alternative to just simply working tiles or specialists. In many cases you'll do better by not whipping and just working tiles. So even though you whip 100 times, considering the opportunity cost of whipping is just working tiles--you still probably don't get as much benefit out of the ability to whip than you do out of the ability to chop.

Generally speaking -- slavery with a granary produces about as many hammers per turn as just simply working plains hill mines with the extra citizens instead of whipping them every 10 turns.

The real advantage of slavery is not hammers, but the ability to hurry production -- sometimes you just want things fast. So with total production being equal (plains hill mines vs whipping) -- slavery still wins out due to the fact that its production is frontloaded not backloaded. However, the production hurry benefit is only relevant if your cities are already grown out and already have granaries. If you had to grow your cities out just to whip them, and also probably whip a granary too, then you aren't getting any hurry advantage.

The other advantage of slavery is that you can convert food into hammers even if you have excess food and no hammers. This turns cities that have no production but lots of food into extremely productive cities. Generally speaking, 1 food is worth about the same as 2 hammers -- this is true even if you're not using slavery--up until you reach the happy cap, assuming you have adequate tiles to work with the extra citizens (1f2h tiles or 4h tiles, for example -- 2 extra food will allow you to work one extra 4h tile or two extra 1f2h tiles, which is why food is worth about twice as much as hammers.). After the happy cap, each food is still worth about 2 hammers if you're running slavery (since you can whip unhappy citizens at about this efficiency). If you're not running slavery, at happy cap excess food is useless past what your citizens need to eat.

But once you start whipping away good tiles, slavery is often a really bad deal. If you can work good tiles with all of your citizens (once that produce 5+ total f/h/c ), its rarely a good idea to whip except in warfare situations. So, for example, if the plains hill mine i was talking about earlier was on a river, you get an extra commerce out of it, and its probably better to work it rather than whip, unless the thing you're whipping is needed urgently. And if you need commerce, whipping away cottage workers or even lake workers is usually a terrible idea.

If you play as a total peacenik, you can get by pretty efficiently without slavery. proper use of caste system is not that much different -- you may lose a few turns here and there due to having to slow build things you shouldn't, and cities that lack hammers will be pretty hopeless... but eventually you'll be able to build workshops in cities that have no hills, and the extra specialists are nice too.

where slavery really shines is warfare -- you can whip an army as soon as you get the required techs, and you can turn captured citizens into military units very quickly to continue your push. Its really hard to do war properly without slavery.
 
nate64 said:
slavery, on the other hand, is an alternative to just simply working tiles or specialists. In many cases you'll do better by not whipping and just working tiles.

That hasn't been my experience at all.

My games are characterized by near-constant warfare against the Aggressive AI, so without cracking the whip frequently I wouldn't survive the vast majority of my games. I don't ever play peacefully because I like my civ games to be like real history, characterized by little more than continuous warfare :strength:

I can see how chopping gives similar or greater amounts of early hammers before the whip can have a chance to though. I probably don't chop enough but I like to leave some Plains forest for lumbermills later.
 
well i agree with you that warmonger strats are really hard to make work without slavery, not arguing that point. But if you're whipping more than you're chopping in the early game before the war is about to start, you're whipping too much and you may be undervaluing commerce tiles or 1f3h tiles which are usually better worked than whipped away

Peacetime whipping is a really marginal advantage--there are certainly situations where it saves you 2 or 3 turns in a city, but it isn't going to make or break your strategy.
 
Nah, I don't whip too much in the very early game, only when I can use the food surplus to quickly regrow. I also will whip an occasional worker or settler if I can get enough population quickly enough.
 
I will often whip a wonder like the GW or the 'mids, and the occasional settler, but for the most part I only whip during wartime.

...Although, whipping in wartime seems counterproductive, since you add unhappiness to war-weariness and that makes everything worse. I'm not sure what is the optimum strategy. You guys are the strategists, I'm just the forum crazy lady. :p
 
Well, I find that once I get a certain number of cities I'm able to space out my whips such that happiness is hardly effected. Also using the flood of units I'm whipping lets me conquer territory, which in turn gives me more unique luxuries which help with happiness (new cities also have the advantage of not having +8 or 10 :mad: "We cannot forget your cruel oppression!").

I have only fought a few wars where war weariness was a significant hindrance to my economy. One epic war against Pacal II while he had infantry and I was still using rifles and cannons. I lost huge numbers of troops attacking his cities and destroying his SoD, but I was whipping consistently from a pretty large empire (had conquered most of the territory from 5 other AIs by this point), and was able to replace losses. War weariness was serious, but I mounted a campaign into his territory and captured his capital and the surrounding 4 or so cities, which got me about 20 wonders in all including the Statue of Zeus! That helped war weariness a lot. I ended up capitulating Pacal after taking the Kremlin from him. 'Twas the most epic Civ war I've ever fought :D
 
Pretty much all the Civ wars I've fought that I would call 'epic' I've lost. The wins are usually pretty mundane.
 
Aw, isn't it cute how you try to trivialize Nazi-Germany's war crimes by pointing an accusing finger at the allies? No, no it really isn't. There are few points in history where you have a clear cut wrong side, but WWII definitely is one of those few points.

Not at all, really. From outside it seems very simple "just 1 right side" (and it totally is).
But for Latvia WW2 ended at 1990, not 1945. And during WW2 many man had to choose both sides to survive. That wasn't free choise at all but "they had to do this" so families could still live. But both sides used this information to eliminate "enemies" from wrong side (yeah, why you join Germans, you had to take bullet instead.. yeah, right.. easy to say that). And my grandfather never supported Nazi but had to be on that side so his wife (with small children born during war and 0 chance to get away at that moment) could survive. He was sent to Siberia for many years but survived and got home later (and after that all still became father to my father)... "Wrong side".. yeah, right... bullet in my grandfather head would be wrong side not Nazi or Soviets..
 
@elmurcis: I very much appreciate what you are contributing with your family story. However, to be precise I would say that your grandfather - and others - was STILL on the wrong side at that time, he just had no other choice than to be there (unless he abandoned his wife and children). In hindsight, it's possible to call the Nazi side wrong and their opponents right without passing judgement on every one who was involved on either side.

Now I wonder if the mods (I summon thee) have to split off yet another subthread from this thread in order not to derail it...
 
But for Latvia WW2 ended at 1990, not 1945.

"Aw boohoo the evil commies are so oppressive."

Actually for Latvia WWII ended in 1944 when it was liberated from fascist barbarians and allowed to join the glorious Soviet Union.

He was sent to Siberia for many years but survived and got home later

So he apparently repaid the damage he caused with free labor for the Soviet peoples, good.

Moderator Action: Please do not troll.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
 
I will often whip a wonder like the GW or the 'mids, and the occasional settler, but for the most part I only whip during wartime.

...Although, whipping in wartime seems counterproductive, since you add unhappiness to war-weariness and that makes everything worse. I'm not sure what is the optimum strategy. You guys are the strategists, I'm just the forum crazy lady. :p

Well, early in the game when you have those happy caps with lotsa food and no luxuries whatcha gonna do? Might as well whip off the "parasites" to get granaries, libraries, forges, etc. Likewise in food-rich but hammer-poor cities. Within reason, of course--better allow whip resentment to fade before flaying again. Also found the practice counterproductive at first, not to mention unsavory, but losing (Warlords at Emperor level) was getting depressing.

That said, Domination wins remain elusive; can't do better than Space or Diplo. Perhaps a personal level of incompetence has already been reached? No matter, long as it's fun. Cheers and happy gaming!
 
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