Prehistoric Era analysis

[Arakhor]

In line with what Thunderbrd was saying a few days ago, I've decided to open this thread to provide specific thoughts and queries on the Prehistoric Era. After all, this era is going to be the first 300+ turns of every game and has the greatest impact on the game, so it needs to be the best thought-out, as far as I'm concerned.

Language
* The Language civics have no strategy whatsoever. You simply take the latest option to get even bigger universal bonuses than before.
* The Stinging Insults and Goad promotions are identical and appear to be simply a weaker version of Flanking. What purpose do they serve in the game?
* If all those Natural Wonders that Language incongruously unlocks are there because you can't add them to a mapscript, simply move those to Nomadic Lifestyle and avoid the odd idea that you don't get them if you go through Nomadic Lifestyle rather than Language.

Oral Tradition
* The Silver Tongue promotions don't appear to do anything at all, except be restricted to Diplomats.

Shelter Building
* Apparently, this tech allows you to build an Abatis (or "build a Abatis" as it appears in-game) and a Fortified Cave, twice over. Something is wrong with the display there.

Controlled Fire
* This reveals the Ash and Charcoal resources. What purpose do they serve? No one ever needs to trade them, because everyone has them, and they don't appear to do anything.

Soft-Hammer Percussion
* Compared to Hard-Hammer Percussion, this tech is underwhelming, allowing just one building, one wonder and a natural wonder. However, its successors (Chopping, Scraping and Piercing) are even worse. All four add +1 beaker to Stone Tool Workshops, with just two promotions and the Spiked Clubman and Public Stoning spread thinly between them. Simply merge all four into a single Soft-Hammer tech and then (if desired) reduces the beaker bonus to only +2 to compensate.

Prehistoric Music (and Folk Music)
* These enable four different types of instrument resources and their respective buildings, which add to the commerce bloat by there simply being so many buildings which grant +1 commerce. If you merged the four different types of instrument makers into one and removed the resources, you'd have just one building adding culture and commerce and the Music Hut then doesn't grant vast happiness bonuses (based on all those instrument types) and can be set to a much more reasonable number.
* Even having just one constructed resource instead of four would help reduce the huge numbers which quickly build up and can quickly unbalance the game, so just reining in the numbers should make for a much more tactical early game.

Natural Pigments
* This allows access to three different types of Sand resource and you can build them all if you meet each pre-requisite. Why do we need three Sand resources? The Sand Paintings from Petroglyphs require the Sand resource, so why not simply make the Sand Paintings require the terrain options from the Sand resources and simply cut the resource? Resources that everyone has do not need to be resources. What's more, they clog the Diplomacy screen awfully.
* Likewise, why do we need two type of clay resource (Common and Fine), where one would presumably do?

Naturopathy and Druidism
* Naturopathy allows you to build the Nature Altar, but doesn't found Druidism. Either scrap the Druidism tech altogether or move the Nature Altar to the Druidism tech, so that it isn't a useless dead-end tech for every civilisation except one.
* Why are there five different Nature Circles? Why not simply have one circle, which can be built if you have any of the five resources and gives +5% food (total) for doing so?
* The Potato God circle does not need an E in "potato".

Simple Woodworking
* The Driftwood Gatherer never obsoletes, as it really should do.
* I think SW should grant access to the Ironwood Clubman (see Heat Treatment).

Fine Edge Tools and Microlith
* These two techs seem like they should be the same tech. They both grant +25% worker speed (this could be merged as 40%) and +1 hammer to the Stone Tool Maker. Microlith's +1 hammer to the Stone Tools Workshop could stay and even be joined by the bonus hammer from Flint Knapping (below). Together, FET & M also allow two wonders, one building and a promotion, which is hardly overpowering as one tech, rather than two.

Flint Knapping and Composite Tools
* Composite Tools has the same issue as above, in as much as FK grants the same +25% worker speed and +1 hammer to the Stone Tools Workshop that CT does, and only unlocks one unit and one building besides that. I would merge the two and transfer the bonus workshop hammer to Fine Edge Tools (above).
* FK reveals the Pumice Stone resource, which again does nothing. What purpose does it serve?

Heat Treatment
* This is very weak, as it only gives one unit and one building. The Ironwood Clubman could be given to Simple Woodworking and the Branding Hut placed in the Tattoos tech to bulk that one out a bit.

Axe Making and Spear Making
* Do these two need to be separate? Together, they grant five units, one wonder and +2 commerce to the Stone Tools Maker. The economy certainly wouldn't miss losing one of those two commerce bonuses.

Counting and Arithmetic
* These techs seem a bit feeble on their own. I think it would be better to remove Counting and add its stuff to Arithmetic, or the reverse, depending on whether you see it leading to Barter or as a result of it.
* Tally Stone & Counting Sticks are essentially the same building, with different resource requirements. Just merge the requirements and stick with one of them.

Bark Working
* Produces the Bark resource, which I think would be better modelled by requiring the Bark Worker building. If you want bark in every city, build the worker in every city, which makes more sense than apparently having huge shipments of bark sent between your cities. The Ecstasy Lab can do without the bark requirement, as your empire should be long past such things by then.

Sewing
* Similarly, the Clothing resource is rather odd. Are we to assume that a civ without this 'resource' has naked citizens? I think it would make much more sense to have those things which reference clothing to instead rely on the Seamstress' Hut or the Tailor's Shop. This would make the clothing-related buildings much more of an opportunity cost, rather than "oh, I have a Seamstress's Hut somewhere in my empire".

Atlatl Making
* This is another weak-feeling tech. Perhaps Sidestep II would be better in Spearfishing and its two units moved to Axe/Spear Making, which could then be renamed Weapon Making (and become an important go-to tech for militarists). The remaining bonus commerce to the Stone Tools Workshop could then either disappear to help the economy, or bundle with Weapon Making's bonus to give +2 commerce instead.

Earth Oven
* This has just one building. Wouldn't the Imu be better off in Fire Making?

Slash and Burn
* Is burning forests and vegetation really worthy of a whole tech by itself? We already have Controlled Fire and Fire Making, plus Earth Ovens.
* The tech name is two verbs, rather than nouns or adverbs. Perhaps it could be renamed to fit in slightly better?

Conduct
* Other than Crime (Corruption) which is unlocked here, the only point of this tech is to build an Executioner's Hut. I don't think it would be unbalancing at all to move both of them to Chiefdom (and maybe adjust Chiefdom's tech cost if that's an issue).

Poultry Domestication
* The Myth of Birds should probably be here, instead of Falconry, in line with the other Domestication techs.
* Why is Fine Leather a resource? It does nothing and there is already a Leather resource, which actually has effects tied to it.

Falconry
* This is another underwhelming tech, granting only two buildings and penalising the Myth of Birds, so there's little reason to take this tech until you want Aristocracy in the Classical Era.
* Why is this a Prehistoric tech? Even its own civilipedia text suggests a date of 2000 BC, which I would have thought places it in the Ancient Era.

Sedentary Lifestyle
* Why does this require Megalith Construction? If anything, I'd have thought that any culture that is building huge stone structures is highly unlikely to be nomadic.

Miscellaneous Sounds and Text
* The Hit and Run promotion needs to have a capitalised R.
* The Bark resource conflicts with the Bark promotion in the Civilopedia. I suggest renaming the promotion.
* Religious techs have the same name as their religion messes with the Civilopedia's hot-linking system.
* The Christianity tech is missing its strategy section.
* Falconry's strategy needs redoing, apparently.
* Atlatl Making and Spearfishing still have the same tech quote.

General Thoughts
* Can the AI handle the Culture wonders? They can be pretty expensive and then grant access to the Cree unit (or what-have-you), which they don't appear to use. What's more, the AI tend to like building those wonders and then not doing anything with them, which is not a good idea. I think the vanilla idea of unique units by civilisation (making the Assimilation option interesting) is a much more effective idea.
* Ritualism and Soft-Hammer Percussion both seem to unlock the Public Stoning building, which seems a bit odd.
* Why is Cactus Hill under Axe Making? Wouldn't it be better under Flint Knapping or Fine Edge Tools?
* What is the point of the Stone Tools resource? It's unlocked by Hard-Hammer Percussion, given out by various wonders and seems to do nothing.
* The shared resource mechanic is particularly odd in the case of organic resources, such as Grass, Bark, Vines and Straw. Are we to assume that cities are literally sending boats and what-have-you between each city, loaded with these perishable resources, rather than simply building the appropriate Prehistoric building and having a local supply? Having them as resources also implies that they have timeless appeal, which is very hard to suggest in almost any later era.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I like your post. It's provocative and well considered. I'm not saying I agree with everything, or even much, but at least it brings it up for consideration. I'm sure you're not the only one who feels as you do. So it's worth commenting on your points for sure.

After all, this era is going to be the first 300+ turns of every game and has the greatest impact on the game, so it needs to be the best thought-out, as far as I'm concerned.

Agreed.

The Language civics have no strategy whatsoever. You simply take the latest option to get even bigger universal bonuses than before.

Won't say I disagree but I'm curious if you or anyone else has a proposal that would resolve this observation.

The Stinging Insults and Goad promotions are identical and appear to be simply a weaker version of Flanking. What purpose do they serve in the game?

These are mine so I'll definitely comment here:
1) Taunt makes a unit appear to be more dangerous than it is when an enemy attacks your stack - it makes your taunting unit tend to come up first to defend. The stronger the taunt, the more likely the unit will be selected to defend the stack as the system thinks its a stronger defender.
2) Scouts are better at this than other classes and thus have an improved version which is why there are two types that cover this.
3) The ability is best for those units that are really good at fleeing battle - it makes the unit a valuable distracting defense which means that you can use these units to offer some protection while maintaining speed on your escort. They won't neutralize the threat but they may be able to keep it busy. This is why some withdrawal accompanies the taunt value and why improving withdrawal through flanking opens up more access to greater taunt level (greater confidence they'd be able to get away.)

As I go deeper into AI development I'll be teaching the AI how to best use these.

If all those Natural Wonders that Language incongruously unlocks are there because you can't add them to a mapscript, simply move those to Nomadic Lifestyle and avoid the odd idea that you don't get them if you go through Nomadic Lifestyle rather than Language.

It's not because they can't be added. They were made as buildings and I love their strategic impact. Very clever that they obsolete so quickly. Opening up at Language does seem a little odd but I figure it has something to do with explorers reporting on local features.

The Silver Tongue promotions don't appear to do anything at all, except be restricted to Diplomats.

It's a shell with more planned to support further diplomat actions that haven't been completed yet. Partially this is on DH but I've asked him to delay as I prepare some further dynamics. I did have an effect to add to those in the interim.. just haven't gotten to it myself. The tag is ready and hasn't been used elsewhere yet. It makes the city which the unit is located in get a happiness for the unit's presence.

Shelter Building
* Apparently, this tech allows you to build an Abatis (or "build a Abatis" as it appears in-game) and a Fortified Cave, twice over. Something is wrong with the display there.

No idea what's up with that. Without looking into it... maybe someone else can share some current understanding of why that is.

Controlled Fire
* This reveals the Ash and Charcoal resources. What purpose do they serve? No one ever needs to trade them, because everyone has them, and they don't appear to do anything.

Sure seems like they should...

For me when I see stuff like this I think, "What could we do with it?" before I think, "We're not doing anything with it so shouldn't it be eliminated?" I'd bet some equipments will require those.

Of course, the difference between requiring a resource and a building or local feature is that the resource generated in one city is available in all connected cities thereafter. So a building that creates a negative impact but provides a resource is only necessary in one city, not all. Trade is a minimal reason for a resource but I do agree that 'goods' resources such as these should have a different category on the diplomacy screen entirely.

Soft-Hammer Percussion
* Compared to Hard-Hammer Percussion, this tech is underwhelming, allowing just one building, one wonder and a natural wonder. However, its successors (Chopping, Scraping and Piercing) are even worse. All four add +1 beaker to Stone Tool Workshops, with just two promotions and the Spiked Clubman and Public Stoning spread thinly between them. Simply merge all four into a single Soft-Hammer tech and then (if desired) reduces the beaker bonus to only +2 to compensate.

If they were truly under valuable then why do I find that speeding out to get them early is one of the best early game strategies?

Having built the Stone Tools Workshop, each of those techs is offering the benefits that a good era appropriate building would provide but you don't have to spend the production to build it since you already did to get the workshop. So each tech represents a free bonus just for researching alone AND makes it thereafter faster to get to other techs so challenging the ability for a player to see through what looks like it doesn't have much to offer while in-fact they are one of the best techs to strive for as quickly as possible is exactly what makes them clever by design.

That each now adds even a little something extra is just a nice improvement recently made. I'm sure it's likely yet more will be added to them in further developments, particularly during a Nomadic Start scenario which is still high on the list of mod priorities to develop.

Oddly, it's in this one case that I feel you have just offered criticism for what I feel is the BEST design element in the prehistoric era as a whole hands down. And I didn't create it... I just delighted in the deepening understanding of it that I gained as I experienced it as a player. I LOVE counter-intuitive strategies being the best policies.

More commentary later.

 

[Noriad]

Features in the Civilization game series have two purposes:
1) deepening strategy, this is the game part.
2) increasing immersion in the historical period. This is the flavor part.

Ideally, each feature fit both purposes. But if it only serves purpose (2) that alone is not sufficient reason to delete the feature, as long as it doesn't lead to too much micromanagement or too much clutter.

 

[Arakhor]

How is "too much clutter" defined, though? Anyway, part two below (and updated in my original post).

Counting and Arithmetic
* These techs seem a bit feeble on their own. I think it would be better to remove Counting and add its stuff to Arithmetic, or the reverse, depending on whether you see it leading to Barter or as a result of it.
* Tally Stone & Counting Sticks are essentially the same building, with different resource requirements. Just merge the requirements and stick with one of them.

Bark Working
* Produces the Bark resource, which I think would be better modelled by requiring the Bark Worker building. If you want bark in every city, build the worker in every city, which makes more sense than apparently have huge shipments of bark sent between your cities. The Ecstasy Lab can do without the bark requirement, as your empire should be long past such things by then.

Sewing
* Similarly, the Clothing resource is rather odd. Are we to assume that a civ without this 'resource' has naked citizens? I think it would make much more sense to have those things which reference clothing to instead rely on the Seamstress' Hut or the Tailor's Shop. This would make the clothing-related buildings much more of an opportunity cost, rather than "oh, I have a Seamstress's Hut somewhere in my empire".

Atlatl Making
* This is another weak-feeling tech. Perhaps Sidestep II would be better in Spearfishing and its two units moved to Axe/Spear Making, which could then be renamed Weapon Making (and become an important go-to tech for militarists). The remaining bonus commerce to the Stone Tools Workshop could then either disappear to help the economy, or bundle with Weapon Making's bonus to give +2 commerce instead.

Earth Oven
* This has just one building. Wouldn't the Imu be better off in Fire Making?

Slash and Burn
* Is burning forests and vegetation really worthy of a whole tech by itself? We already have Controlled Fire and Fire Making, plus Earth Ovens.
* The tech name is two verbs, rather than nouns or adverbs. Perhaps it could be renamed to fit in slightly better?

Conduct
* Other than Crime (Corruption) which is unlocked here, the only point of this tech is to build an Executioner's Hut. I don't think it would be unbalancing at all to move both of them to Chiefdom (and maybe adjust Chiefdom's tech cost if that's an issue).

Poultry Domestication
* The Myth of Birds should probably be here, instead of Falconry, in line with the other Domestication techs.
* Why is Fine Leather a resource? It does nothing and there is already a Leather resource, which actually has effects tied to it.

Falconry
* This is another underwhelming tech, granting only two buildings and penalising the Myth of Birds, so there's little reason to take this tech until you want Aristocracy in the Classical Era.
* Why is this a Prehistoric tech? Even its own civilipedia text suggests a date of 2000 BC, which I would have thought places it in the Ancient Era.

Sedentary Lifestyle
* Why does this require Megalith Construction? If anything, I'd have thought that any culture that is building huge stone structures is highly unlikely to be nomadic.

Miscellaneous Sounds and Text
* The Hit and Run promotion needs to have a capitalised R.
* The Bark resource conflicts with the Bark promotion in the Civilopedia. I suggest renaming the promotion.
* Religious techs have the same name as their religion messes with the Civilopedia's hot-linking system.
* The Christianity tech is missing its strategy section.
* Falconry's strategy needs redoing, apparently.
* Atlatl Making and Spearfishing still have the same tech quote.

General Thoughts
* Can the AI handle the Culture wonders? They can be pretty expensive and then grant access to the Cree unit (or what-have-you), which they don't appear to use. What's more, the AI tend to like building those wonders and then not doing anything with them, which is not a good idea. I think the vanilla idea of unique units by civilisation (making the Assimilation option interesting) is a much more effective idea.
* Ritualism and Soft-Hammer Percussion both seem to unlock the Public Stoning building, which seems a bit odd.
* Why is Cactus Hill under Axe Making? Wouldn't it be better under Flint Knapping or Fine Edge Tools?
* What is the point of the Stone Tools resource? It's unlocked by Hard-Hammer Percussion, given out by various wonders and seems to do nothing.
* The shared resource mechanic is particularly odd in the case of organic resources, such as Grass, Bark, Vines and Straw. Are we to assume that cities are literally sending boats and what-have-you between each city, loaded with these perishable resources, rather than simply building the appropriate Prehistoric building and having a local supply? Having them as resources also implies that they have timeless appeal, which is very hard to suggest in almost any later era.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Features in the Civilization game series have two purposes:
1) deepening strategy, this is the game part.
2) increasing immersion in the historical period. This is the flavor part.

Ideally, each feature fit both purposes. But if it only serves purpose (2) that alone is not sufficient reason to delete the feature, as long as it doesn't lead to too much micromanagement or too much clutter.

I feel this really says a lot of what I wanted to say right here. Well put. To an extent. I find that those features that represent 'loose ends' are either waiting more development or inviting more. Picking at them is like walking through an unfinished home and pointing out all the exposed outlets that just haven't been finalized yet.

Pointing them out is good but the goal should not be removal as much as it is finding their purpose - the original designer probably had something in mind that just hasn't been completed yet. If not, I'm sure we can envision more evocative solutions than removal.

Prehistoric Music (and Folk Music)
* These enable four different types of instrument resources and their respective buildings, which add to the commerce bloat by there simply being so many buildings which grant +1 commerce. If you merged the four different types of instrument makers into one and removed the resources, you'd have just one building adding culture and commerce and the Music Hut then doesn't grant vast happiness bonuses (based on all those instrument types) and can be set to a much more reasonable number.
* Even having just one constructed resource instead of four would help reduce the huge numbers which quickly build up and can quickly unbalance the game, so just reining in the numbers should make for a much more tactical early game.

Again, I think that if Goods resources can be held separate in the diplo screen they won't be such an issue. Additionally, I love how this building set works.

What I'm NOT impressed by is how rarely its necessary to utilize. Happiness is not usually a challenge to maintain in this era. And you would think it should be.

Also... I think we'll eventually be seeing more specific use of specific instruments later on down the road with further work on entertainer activities.

But perhaps each city should only be able to build one instrument generator to help resolve some of the issue you're seeing there. - This would make for a bit more of an 'interesting decision' and support getting new cities out that you might want building an otherwise not so optimal building - would certainly inspire trading some goods potentially, especially if the instruments were generated by national wonders that created 2 or 3 to work with for you and for trade.

Natural Pigments
* This allows access to three different types of Sand resource and you can build them all if you meet each pre-requisite. Why do we need three Sand resources? The Sand Paintings from Petroglyphs require the Sand resource, so why not simply make the Sand Paintings require the terrain options from the Sand resources and simply cut the resource? Resources that everyone has do not need to be resources. What's more, they clog the Diplomacy screen awfully.

I've been waiting to see what sand is supposed to unlock or accomplish. I'm sure someone had some ideas on that and I'd love to hear them. Are there 3 sand resources or one sand resources accessed by any of 3 possible buildings that are dependent on the tech AND a local terrain or feature?

Sand is certainly a needed thing. Showing where its needed still needs to be done. Making it a little bit tougher to get might be good but I wouldn't see how we could.

* Likewise, why do we need two type of clay resource (Common and Fine), where one would presumably do?

Fine Clay is a rare map resource and I believe some wonders require it. Clay is relatively common but does unlock some buildings and will probably help with some equipments.

Naturopathy and Druidism
* Naturopathy allows you to build the Nature Altar, but doesn't found Druidism. Either scrap the Druidism tech altogether or move the Nature Altar to the Druidism tech, so that it isn't a useless dead-end tech for every civilisation except one.
* Why are there five different Nature Circles? Why not simply have one circle, which can be built if you have any of the five resources and gives +5% food (total) for doing so?

1) The whole point of religious techs being dead end is a proven method of enhancing the likelihood of spreading out the religions among the various players and helping to keep one player from hording them all. It sets the player back on research to go for the dead end so represents a sacrifice to get a religion.

2) What would be the benefit of blending them all into one? I can see some benefit in keeping them separate though. A city that has two accessing resources gets two of these buildings - this is pretty meaningful strategically once you get Great Farmers available!

* The Potato God circle does not need an E in "potato".

Good point.

Simple Woodworking
* The Driftwood Gatherer never obsoletes, as it really should do.

Agreed. When?

* I think SW should grant access to the Ironwood Clubman (see Heat Treatment).

Disagree as I don't see motive to remove Heat Treatment - more below.

Fine Edge Tools and Microlith
* These two techs seem like they should be the same tech. They both grant +25% worker speed (this could be merged as 40%) and +1 hammer to the Stone Tool Maker. Microlith's +1 hammer to the Stone Tools Workshop could stay and even be joined by the bonus hammer from Flint Knapping (below). Together, FET & M also allow two wonders, one building and a promotion, which is hardly overpowering as one tech, rather than two.

There's lots to both of them now so why are we trying to eliminate one? Where's this inherent implied benefit in reducing the tech count, particularly when, as the last poster made apparent, the purpose of the tech is fulfilled both in providing rational technological progress and thus flavor, and also provides sufficient game effect?

Flint Knapping and Composite Tools
* Composite Tools has the same issue as above, in as much as FK grants the same +25% worker speed and +1 hammer to the Stone Tools Workshop that CT does, and only unlocks one unit and one building besides that. I would merge the two and transfer the bonus workshop hammer to Fine Edge Tools (above).

Same comments as above pretty much.

* FK reveals the Pumice Stone resource, which again does nothing. What purpose does it serve?

Another well identified loose thread that should at least be considered for purpose if it hasn't obtained any yet. I wouldn't mind losing this one if we can't figure something meaningful out here. Seems a little superfluous imo.

Heat Treatment
* This is very weak, as it only gives one unit and one building. The Ironwood Clubman could be given to Simple Woodworking and the Branding Hut placed in the Tattoos tech to bulk that one out a bit.

I find it sufficient for now - but I've often thought it could be made more useful. Equipments would surely see upgrade options here.

Axe Making and Spear Making
* Do these two need to be separate? Together, they grant five units, one wonder and +2 commerce to the Stone Tools Maker. The economy certainly wouldn't miss losing one of those two commerce bonuses.

Strategically it can make for an interesting choice at a critical moment. If you're preparing for war or have been attacked at this stage, which one to go for can be a very important selection, either one leaving you vulnerable until you have both. As it creates an 'interesting decision' potentially, I see cause to keep both.


Anyhow, you're welcome to rebut against any of my statements as well... don't take any disagreement personal - I see everything said as meaningful here... if nothing else it gives a forum to explain some things that may not seem as thought out as they might've been.

EDIT:

How is "too much clutter" defined, though? Anyway, part two below (and updated in my original post).

We'd have to start by defining 'clutter'. Is it chaotic and unconsidered details or is it clever jewels hidden in sand challenging the player to find them? I often see the first as the potential to create the second and the second as genius in design. The beauty of chaos can be that it can inadvertently create such diamonds in the rough that even the designer did not see in his own creation.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Arakhor

I am kinda sad we are rehashing this all again but I will try to answer all concerns.

Language
* The Language civics have no strategy whatsoever. You simply take the latest option to get even bigger universal bonuses than before.

The only reason this is a civic is because it has to influence diplomacy vs other civs (ex. +relations with China). If not for this it would have just been an auto-building that you get upon learning a new tech.

* The Stinging Insults and Goad promotions are identical and appear to be simply a weaker version of Flanking. What purpose do they serve in the game?

Not my stuff, I will leave this to TB.

* If all those Natural Wonders that Language incongruously unlocks are there because you can't add them to a mapscript, simply move those to Nomadic Lifestyle and avoid the odd idea that you don't get them if you go through Nomadic Lifestyle rather than Language.

I did not design these (DH's project), but I think the idea is you cannot discover a wonder if you cannot name it yet.

Oral Tradition
* The Silver Tongue promotions don't appear to do anything at all, except be restricted to Diplomats.

DH was going to add a diplomat stuff so this is just waiting for that to be added.

Shelter Building
* Apparently, this tech allows you to build an Abatis (or "build a Abatis" as it appears in-game) and a Fortified Cave, twice over. Something is wrong with the display there.

Yeah I think another DH project with his conversion of advanced Forts and stuff.

Controlled Fire
* This reveals the Ash and Charcoal resources. What purpose do they serve? No one ever needs to trade them, because everyone has them, and they don't appear to do anything.

Charcoal is used for Cave Paintings, Smokehouse, Forge, Armorer, Hypocaust and Steel Smelter.

Ash is used for the Lye Maker and Lye Factory.

Soft-Hammer Percussion
* Compared to Hard-Hammer Percussion, this tech is underwhelming, allowing just one building, one wonder and a natural wonder. However, its successors (Chopping, Scraping and Piercing) are even worse. All four add +1 beaker to Stone Tool Workshops, with just two promotions and the Spiked Clubman and Public Stoning spread thinly between them. Simply merge all four into a single Soft-Hammer tech and then (if desired) reduces the beaker bonus to only +2 to compensate.

Not all techs can be awesome. But at least it has some stuff it unlocks. This represents the advancement in stone tool technology. I very much want to keep it.

Prehistoric Music (and Folk Music)
* These enable four different types of instrument resources and their respective buildings, which add to the commerce bloat by there simply being so many buildings which grant +1 commerce. If you merged the four different types of instrument makers into one and removed the resources, you'd have just one building adding culture and commerce and the Music Hut then doesn't grant vast happiness bonuses (based on all those instrument types) and can be set to a much more reasonable number.

Originally I wanted to make resources of individual instruments, but I narrowed it down the the main 4 instrument types. As a musician I could not lump the all into one resource. Also "bloat" comments do not work on men when you talk about C2C.

* Even having just one constructed resource instead of four would help reduce the huge numbers which quickly build up and can quickly unbalance the game, so just reining in the numbers should make for a much more tactical early game.

You cannot always make all 4. In fact the Brass Instruments are the hardest to make. While the Percussion are the easiest to get.

Natural Pigments
* This allows access to three different types of Sand resource and you can build them all if you meet each pre-requisite. Why do we need three Sand resources? The Sand Paintings from Petroglyphs require the Sand resource, so why not simply make the Sand Paintings require the terrain options from the Sand resources and simply cut the resource? Resources that everyone has do not need to be resources. What's more, they clog the Diplomacy screen awfully.

Because you cannot always get each type. Stone Sand is the hardest to get because its linked to a resource. Some maps do not have deserts so you cannot always get the desert one. And some maps don't have oceans so it can also be har to get the beach sand one. And the resources are all "Sand" there are just 3 buildings that can generate it. For the buildings you cannot have it have Coastal OR Desert OR Stone as requirements. Note you could have though the expression system Desert OR Stone, but not Coastal. In short one could play on a map that had no sea, no desert and you just don't have access to stone and thus not have access to sand.

* Likewise, why do we need two type of clay resource (Common and Fine), where one would presumably do?

People complained that clay is super common so a common clay was added to make sure you had some sort of basic clay. Fine clay is like the fancy type of clay for special stuff. This is similar to Wood vs Prime Timber where Fine Timber is the more fancy type of high quality wood.

Naturopathy and Druidism
* Naturopathy allows you to build the Nature Altar, but doesn't found Druidism. Either scrap the Druidism tech altogether or move the Nature Altar to the Druidism tech, so that it isn't a useless dead-end tech for every civilisation except one.

When we separated out the religions to their own tech rather than on another tech this is kinda of what happened. DH is in charge of the region stuff so I will let him answer this.

* Why are there five different Nature Circles? Why not simply have one circle, which can be built if you have any of the five resources and gives +5% food (total) for doing so?
* The Potato God circle does not need an E in "potato".

These are Dh's realm so I will let him answer this.

Simple Woodworking
* The Driftwood Gatherer never obsoletes, as it really should do.

When should it? People still correct driftwood today.

* I think SW should grant access to the Ironwood Clubman (see Heat Treatment).

But by putting it at this tech it gives Heat Treatment tech a unit to unlock.

Fine Edge Tools and Microlith
* These two techs seem like they should be the same tech. They both grant +25% worker speed (this could be merged as 40%) and +1 hammer to the Stone Tool Maker. Microlith's +1 hammer to the Stone Tools Workshop could stay and even be joined by the bonus hammer from Flint Knapping (below). Together, FET & M also allow two wonders, one building and a promotion, which is hardly overpowering as one tech, rather than two.

These are left from Prehistoric NWA. I worked around his techs when I first remade the prehistoric era. Personally I think they are fine as their own techs.

Flint Knapping and Composite Tools
* Composite Tools has the same issue as above, in as much as FK grants the same +25% worker speed and +1 hammer to the Stone Tools Workshop that CT does, and only unlocks one unit and one building besides that. I would merge the two and transfer the bonus workshop hammer to Fine Edge Tools (above).

Yeah but Flint Knapping and Composite Tools are completely different types technologies. Sure you can use a Flint Knapped stone on a Composite Tool, but they should still be represented as two different techs.

* FK reveals the Pumice Stone resource, which again does nothing. What purpose does it serve?

this is a newer resource, so it has not fully been integrated into all the applications. This is more of me not focusing on that stuff and trying to get back to the "Cosmos" side of the mod.

Heat Treatment
* This is very weak, as it only gives one unit and one building. The Ironwood Clubman could be given to Simple Woodworking and the Branding Hut placed in the Tattoos tech to bulk that one out a bit.

Yeah sometime we got to get around to adding something else to this tech. But if I recall some Nomadic Lifestyle promotions were going to be unlocked here.

Looking back to the Promotion Icons I made I have ...

- Nomad_Axes_1
- Nomad_Axes_2
- Nomad_Burins
- Nomad_Clubs
- Nomad_Clubs_With_Stone
- Nomad_Dilly_Bags
- Nomad_Fire_Stick
- Nomad_Scraper
- Nomad_Spear_Obsidian
- Nomad_Spear_Wood
- Nomad_Stone_Mace

So yeah a lot of these techs you think are useless were milestone techs to unlock the promotions in the Nomadic Start mod (which still needs to be finished).

Axe Making and Spear Making
* Do these two need to be separate? Together, they grant five units, one wonder and +2 commerce to the Stone Tools Maker. The economy certainly wouldn't miss losing one of those two commerce bonuses.

Yes, this question is just silly. Its like asking if Longbows and Crossbows should be unlocked at the same tech since they are both ranged weapons.

You seem to be focused a lot on the bonuses that Stone Tools Workshop gives. This building is not the problem. Every playing style and game start will get you different gold outcomes. Some games you can barely get by while other you are rolling in money. This has been an issue long before C2C was even a mod.

I hope this helps you understand why the things are the ay they are.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Guess you have more ...

Counting and Arithmetic
* These techs seem a bit feeble on their own. I think it would be better to remove Counting and add its stuff to Arithmetic, or the reverse, depending on whether you see it leading to Barter or as a result of it.

These were MrAzure's addition to the mod and while at first I was opposed I have learned that these are very important in representing prehistoric mathematics.

* Tally Stone & Counting Sticks are essentially the same building, with different resource requirements. Just merge the requirements and stick with one of them.

Tally Stones need Stone resource to get. Thus like its beneficial to have Iron in the Iron Age, if you have Stone in the Stone Age you get a major boost to your civ via the many things that Stone unlocks during the Prehistoric Era.

Bark Working
* Produces the Bark resource, which I think would be better modelled by requiring the Bark Worker building. If you want bark in every city, build the worker in every city, which makes more sense than apparently have huge shipments of bark sent between your cities. The Ecstasy Lab can do without the bark requirement, as your empire should be long past such things by then.

Some areas don't have trees so Bark is an important resource to trade.

Sewing
* Similarly, the Clothing resource is rather odd. Are we to assume that a civ without this 'resource' has naked citizens? I think it would make much more sense to have those things which reference clothing to instead rely on the Seamstress' Hut or the Tailor's Shop. This would make the clothing-related buildings much more of an opportunity cost, rather than "oh, I have a Seamstress's Hut somewhere in my empire".

Basically yes. At least until Personal Adornment. And that's the whole point of the resource web of different buildings proving stuff for other buildings.

Atlatl Making
* This is another weak-feeling tech. Perhaps Sidestep II would be better in Spearfishing and its two units moved to Axe/Spear Making, which could then be renamed Weapon Making (and become an important go-to tech for militarists). The remaining bonus commerce to the Stone Tools Workshop could then either disappear to help the economy, or bundle with Weapon Making's bonus to give +2 commerce instead.

Atlatlist were super strong for awhile. I remember games where I would rush to this tech just to get them. And no I do not want a more genetic "Weapon Making" tech.

Earth Oven
* This has just one building. Wouldn't the Imu be better off in Fire Making?

Imu was there until Earth Oven was made. Its a middle step between Fire Making and Bread Making tech. Note this is one of MrAzures refinement techs.

Slash and Burn
* Is burning forests and vegetation really worthy of a whole tech by itself? We already have Controlled Fire and Fire Making, plus Earth Ovens.
* The tech name is two verbs, rather than nouns or adverbs. Perhaps it could be renamed to fit in slightly better?

Yes its worth its own tech. however we did use to have an agriculture tech here by the same name, but it has been removed. And Slash and Burn is the name of that method.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slash-and-burn

Conduct
* Other than Crime (Corruption) which is unlocked here, the only point of this tech is to build an Executioner's Hut. I don't think it would be unbalancing at all to move both of them to Chiefdom (and maybe adjust Chiefdom's tech cost if that's an issue).

This is another MrAzure tech. it was actually combine from two proposed techs I think. But I think this tech is fine.

Poultry Domestication
* The Myth of Birds should probably be here, instead of Falconry, in line with the other Domestication techs.

Good point.

* Why is Fine Leather a resource? It does nothing and there is already a Leather resource, which actually has effects tied to it.

Ask DH about this one. I think he designed the Ostrich Leather stuff.

Falconry
* This is another underwhelming tech, granting only two buildings and penalising the Myth of Birds, so there's little reason to take this tech until you want Aristocracy in the Classical Era.

I don't know the food bonus from those buildings are nice and you can actually use subdued Eagles and Hawks for them too.

* Why is this a Prehistoric tech? Even its own civilipedia text suggests a date of 2000 BC, which I would have thought places it in the Ancient Era.

Because its a non-sedentary lifestyle tech. Most cultures that develop falconry are nomadic and thus don't need the requirement of Sedentary Lifestyle to research it. Thus its placed here based on tech requirements more than historical dating. Also I would not be surprised if it was developed earlier and just archeological evidence was harder to get due to the fact they were nomadic.

Sedentary Lifestyle
* Why does this require Megalith Construction? If anything, I'd have thought that any culture that is building huge stone structures is highly unlikely to be nomadic.

Many megalith sites have been found to be seasonal sites or even sites where they go there once or twice a year. Having a set location rather than taking everything with you easily can lead you to the mentality of settling in one spot. In short its a good tech that has both sedentary elements and nomadic elements to it.

* Can the AI handle the Culture wonders? They can be pretty expensive and then grant access to the Cree unit (or what-have-you), which they don't appear to use. What's more, the AI tend to like building those wonders and then not doing anything with them, which is not a good idea. I think the vanilla idea of unique units by civilisation (making the Assimilation option interesting) is a much more effective idea.

I have seen them get cultures I was trying to get. I almost never get the prehistoric ones because the AI are too good at getting them first.

Ritualism and Soft-Hammer Percussion both seem to unlock the Public Stoning building, which seems a bit odd.

Why? Soft-Hammer Percussion for the stone and Ritualism for the tradition of stoning.

What is the point of the Stone Tools resource? It's unlocked by Hard-Hammer Percussion, given out by various wonders and seems to do nothing.

It was going to do more but never got around to doing stuff with it.

* The shared resource mechanic is particularly odd in the case of organic resources, such as Grass, Bark, Vines and Straw. Are we to assume that cities are literally sending boats and what-have-you between each city, loaded with these perishable resources, rather than simply building the appropriate Prehistoric building and having a local supply? Having them as resources also implies that they have timeless appeal, which is very hard to suggest in almost any later era.

Sure why not? If you want to make a civ that sends tons Bark to their desert cities, why not?

 

[JosEPh_II]

Maybe I should've done posts like this over the years!

JosEPh :O

 

[Arakhor]

But perhaps each city should only be able to build one instrument generator to help resolve some of the issue you're seeing there. - This would make for a bit more of an 'interesting decision' and support getting new cities out that you might want building an otherwise not so optimal building - would certainly inspire trading some goods potentially, especially if the instruments were generated by national wonders that created 2 or 3 to work with for you and for trade.

That sounds more interesting, yes.

I've been waiting to see what sand is supposed to unlock or accomplish. I'm sure someone had some ideas on that and I'd love to hear them. Are there 3 sand resources or one sand resources accessed by any of 3 possible buildings that are dependent on the tech AND a local terrain or feature?

As far as I can tell, it's one sand resource accessed in three different ways and of course the issue with empire-wide resources is that you only ever need one of any given resource.

The whole point of religious techs being dead end is a proven method of enhancing the likelihood of spreading out the religions among the various players and helping to keep one player from hording them all. It sets the player back on research to go for the dead end so represents a sacrifice to get a religion.

Then why not require the religion tech before you can build missionaries? That at least means that if your religion spreads to another civ, they at least need to do some research to spread it of their own accord.

What would be the benefit of blending them all into one? I can see some benefit in keeping them separate though. A city that has two accessing resources gets two of these buildings - this is pretty meaningful strategically once you get Great Farmers available!

The Omega Child Workshop gives a large series of bonuses depending on various things and you could easily do the same with the Nature Circles - +5% food with rice, +5% food with potatoes etc.

Agreed. When?

I don't have the Ancient or Classical technologies immediately to hand, but I'd suggest around the time of a wood- or forestry-related tech in one of those two eras.

There's lots to both of them now so why are we trying to eliminate one? Where's this inherent implied benefit in reducing the tech count, particularly when, as the last poster made apparent, the purpose of the tech is fulfilled both in providing rational technological progress and thus flavor, and also provides sufficient game effect?

I'm certainly in favour of additional flavour, which is why I'm playing C2C in the first place (I've long been a fan of history, particularly early history). My point was that the two techs do a lot of the same things with the same bonuses, which is somewhat like dating twin sisters - part of the fun of discovering something new is lost when you realise that part of it is identical to what you already have.

I find it sufficient for now - but I've often thought it could be made more useful. Equipments would surely see upgrade options here.

That would be more interesting then. The lean techs stand out like a sore thumb, compared to the highly-stuffed techs present in much of the Prehistoric Era.

 

[Arakhor]

Charcoal is used for Cave Paintings, Smokehouse, Forge, Armorer, Hypocaust and Steel Smelter. Ash is used for the Lye Maker and Lye Factory.

I understand that charcoal was still used up until the last century or so, which is fair enough, but by the time your civ gets around to dealing with the lye buildings, you've had the Ash resource for hundreds of turns. Moreover, is "ash" really a memorable global resource?

Not all techs can be awesome. But at least it has some stuff it unlocks. This represents the advancement in stone tool technology. I very much want to keep it.

I completely agree with keeping Soft-Hammer Percussion; my main point was about Chopping, Scraping and Piercing being remarkably specific and insipid techs that could easily be rolled into SHP with no loss to anything.

this is a newer resource, so it has not fully been integrated into all the applications. This is more of me not focusing on that stuff and trying to get back to the "Cosmos" side of the mod.

Quite honestly, I believe the the 'Caveman' side to be far more important than the 'Cosmos' side. Everyman will experience the Caveman and very few will experience the Cosmos, so to speak.

So yeah a lot of these techs you think are useless were milestone techs to unlock the promotions in the Nomadic Start mod (which still needs to be finished).

Well, then that's a problem. I'd have thought that such an important early mod would have been high-priority to implement and bug-fix.

You seem to be focused a lot on the bonuses that Stone Tools Workshop gives. This building is not the problem. Every playing style and game start will get you different gold outcomes. Some games you can barely get by while other you are rolling in money.

The Stone Tools Workshop comes up a lot in the Prehistoric techs, which is why I've mentioned it a lot. I've barely mentioned the long list of buildings which add commerce bonuses and contrive to have me rolling in money by the end of the Ancient Era, at the latest.

Guess you have more ...

With the greatest of respect, Hydro, the same could be said about the entire mod. I may be getting the wrong impression from that line, but it seems that you are taking my efforts personally. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Tally Stones need Stone resource to get. Thus like its beneficial to have Iron in the Iron Age, if you have Stone in the Stone Age you get a major boost to your civ via the many things that Stone unlocks during the Prehistoric Era.

Yes, I had worked that out. Why not just have one building with an Either/Or resource, rather than two otherwise identical buildings with different resource requirements?

Basically yes. At least until Personal Adornment. And that's the whole point of the resource web of different buildings proving stuff for other buildings.

As opposed to having a web of buildings upgrading into other buildings? I find it very hard to believe that up until this point, every human in the world is still running around naked. Not every civ will start in that world's Africa.

Imu was there until Earth Oven was made. Its a middle step between Fire Making and Bread Making tech. Note this is one of MrAzures refinement techs.

And it's worth taking up an entire tech by itself, instead being in Fire Making? What was his reasoning?

It was going to do more but never got around to doing stuff with it.

Given how prevalent the Stone Tools resource can be, that's another another problem.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Since I can't work on C2C or my other project I have been playing other mods. Did you know that most techs in Pie_at's great mod allow one or fewer things depending on your starting nation? They may allow a civic or a worker action or reveal a resource and nothing else but give access to other techs. It is not for the builder though as I find I am just pressing enter to end turn before being over run by hoards of barbarians or having a metor swarm or comet wipe my nation out.

Diplomacy with Indigenous Peoples (what is left after poping a goody hut) from WLBO is still coming it is wht the silver tounge promotion is for. This requires a property a single value representing your nation's interaction with IP which is the basis for the events associated with IP. I need to get Faustmouse onto the events when I get the property set up and the diplomat and missionary missions about diplomacy with the IP. This will be extended to barbarian cities also, but that needs dll work.

Fine Clay and Fine Leather are the basis for some Trade Goods. Trade Goods are produced by great wonders with the sole purpose of trying to fix trade in C2C. The first has the beginings of that use in the Nok Sculptures wonder. So far we have only done 6 ancient era trade goods, one for each culture group. There will be more. The vintage wines are another and have nothing to do with the fact that I live in a wine producing area.

If something is showing up twice somewher you should be reporting it as a bug so that it can be fixed.

My "other project" is a complete rewrite of the main python program - the one that does the screens to see if it is possible to attempt the Nomadic Start idea. Basically it is "just" another city like screen for the nomadic unit showing what the "unit" has collected; the nomadic equivalents of research, production and commerce; as well as what the members of the unit are doing, what equipment and promotions the unit has.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Maybe I should've done posts like this over the years!

JosEPh :O

Being very specific about the feedback like this is really all that can possibly be helpful. It gives a strong clarity of the message as opposed to a generalized statement saying "There's so much bloat."

Mind, as you can see, we may have our ideas as to if what's being pointed to really IS an issue or if it's just a work in progress point or if it's something that we may feel is perhaps simply underappreciated design structure.

But at least by being specific we can identify which of the 3 each of us feels the issue amounts to and give reasons why.


Obviously there's a lot I have not responded to here yet that I do intend to address so if we can keep new points made on a pause while the specific issues brought up (and there are many) have run their discussionary course. I think it might take a while to address this kind of subject volume. I'll comment more as time permits.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I understand that charcoal was still used up until the last century or so, which is fair enough, but by the time your civ gets around to dealing with the lye buildings, you've had the Ash resource for hundreds of turns. Moreover, is "ash" really a memorable global resource?

Look at it from the other perspective. If I was to unlock Ash when its needed for Lye then people would complain one could get as much earlier. Plus there are many other implementations of ash that just have not been applied yet.

I completely agree with keeping Soft-Hammer Percussion; my main point was about Chopping, Scraping and Piercing being remarkably specific and insipid techs that could easily be rolled into SHP with no loss to anything.

These were implemented when johny smith came to help out with the Prehistoric tech tree and the implementation of the Nomadic Start stuff. he has since left and Nomadic Start is still waiting to be finished. Thus the techs are there for when its implemented.

Quite honestly, I believe the the 'Caveman' side to be far more important than the 'Cosmos' side. Everyman will experience the Caveman and very few will experience the Cosmos, so to speak.

I think its all important. But people complained that the Transhuman and Galactic Eras were too empty. While the prehistoric era is now mostly filled with something on each tech. Also after re-hashing the prehistoric era over and over I would much rather work on something other than the Prehistoric Era.

Well, then that's a problem. I'd have thought that such an important early mod would have been high-priority to implement and bug-fix.

We have a limited amount of people working on C2C. Lots have dropped out over the month/years and we have had to adapt to that. Last I heard TB wanted to do the Nomadic Start stuff. However other projects like the Combat Mod and the Naval Re-balancing have taken his time. Also having those techs exist is not a high priority thing. Nor is the Nomadic Start. The Prehistoric Era works fine with out it right now. It just would be even more awesome with it. And honestly a lot of your "complaints" are small in comparison to how it use to be for the prehistoric era.

The Stone Tools Workshop comes up a lot in the Prehistoric techs, which is why I've mentioned it a lot. I've barely mentioned the long list of buildings which add commerce bonuses and contrive to have me rolling in money by the end of the Ancient Era, at the latest.

Commerce? commerce Or Gold? gold Because there is a big difference between the two. Most of the has been removed from ALL of C2C.

With the greatest of respect, Hydro, the same could be said about the entire mod. I may be getting the wrong impression from that line, but it seems that you are taking my efforts personally. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

It was more of a surprise that when I pressed "Submit Reply" that the first post suddenly had even more feedback. You really did not need to edit your first post like that.

Yes, I had worked that out. Why not just have one building with an Either/Or resource, rather than two otherwise identical buildings with different resource requirements?

What would be the benefit of having Stone OR Wood? Wood is common and everyone (at least mostly everyone) can get access to wood. Thus everyone would have the building. Having two buildings means that those with stone get an added benefit than everyone else. And then those too lazy to build either building get no benefit at all.

As opposed to having a web of buildings upgrading into other buildings? I find it very hard to believe that up until this point, every human in the world is still running around naked. Not every civ will start in that world's Africa.

We have upgrading buildings too. As for the naked part, I left this ambiguous for a reason. A lot of the charm of the mod is one can tell their own story about their empire, down to the detail of "are they naked!?!" If you want to say they are then that's fine. If you ant to say that the tech represent proper clothing (vs just a loin cloth) then that's fine too.

And it's worth taking up an entire tech by itself, instead being in Fire Making? What was his reasoning?

Well in MrAzures original idea he wanted to have different heating tech represented. Which is why Central Heating is even a tech. A lot was cut back from his idea but I personally though that was good since Fire Making did unlock so many other things. Having the Ipu over on its own tech spreads the buildings out a bit more and prolongs your time in the prehistoric era (or other eras if you did not research it then).

Given how prevalent the Stone Tools resource can be, that's another another problem.

Well Praetyre decided to add a Hades mod to C2C with overridden even my stuff which had some sort of Tools stuff implemented. However when it was taken apart again or merged into my mods or the core that stuff was left in limbo land where I am still not sure where Stone Tools fit in. Also TB's combat mod had plans for equipment so I left that in the air until after that is implemented.

On a side note Arakhor I thought you were a die hard AND2 fan. What has made you come over the C2C more?

 

[Arakhor]

I am a fan of AND2, very definitely, but I decided to come over and try out C2C for myself. I'm impressed by the size and the scope and I'm literally quite happy to lend my voice to the proceedings, but I'm not a permanent convert by any means.

 

[Thunderbrd]

To continue...

Counting and Arithmetic
* These techs seem a bit feeble on their own. I think it would be better to remove Counting and add its stuff to Arithmetic, or the reverse, depending on whether you see it leading to Barter or as a result of it.

I feel there's a distinct difference in being able to count and being able to perform any basic mathematical function.

And nothing that adds production is ever feeble, no matter how little it may add.

This brings me to perhaps an understanding of what you mean by feeble. Our way of valuing techs may differ here. I'm thinking as a player seeing the benefits of one tech over another. For me, many techs that have few 'objects' are still incredibly valuable points to shoot for because their effect on improving my nation is quite potent. Many techs that unlock a great deal of things do not have all that much real value to give the player an enhanced edge - they may have their purposes, all those things, but that doesn't mean I'm gunning for them because they're more of a supportive benefit or situational benefit. Few effects inspire me to spam for a tech.

If a tech doesn't add much but adds cause to spam for it, then it's a valuable tech to the player. If the tech is valuable to the player then it's valuable to the game - those spam points are more memorable than all the myriads of stuff you're forced to collect along the way that isn't as effective in all situations.

A good example of the difference:
I spam for all those techs that add another production or research to the Stone Tool Workshop even though those techs don't have many buildings or units being unlocked along the way - it's the price of having such a powerful singular and subtle effect, a balanced trade off.

I do NOT spam for Cave Dwelling. It offers a lot of buildings, even including a common first point at which housing-homeless is undone. But at first, there's so much unhealth it is not going to be effective until other health and food sources have built up enough to start making a dent. As it offers no research or production benefit, the tech isn't going to get me to the next tech or benefit any faster on its own so it's better to spam elsewhere where I CAN speed up development until this tech would in fact benefit me. The buildings providing extra defense aren't necessary unless in an emergency.

Both tech styles, therefore are valuable. The amount of stuff a tech unlocks is less important than its impact to the player. A valuable impact may be all the more desireable to double up with a second or more similar tech(s) challenging the player to ask, how many times do I repeat the cycle before other things become more valuable now? This is not as easy a question for a player to answer as it may seem.

* Tally Stone & Counting Sticks are essentially the same building, with different resource requirements. Just merge the requirements and stick with one of them.

I think Hydro answered to this well from a game effect theory perspective. I do think you make an interesting point from a real world perspective. As in, how would one be of more benefit than another and how would one add benefit to the other. Perhaps the Tally Stone should be an upgrade to the Counting Sticks that's just a notch improved due to the enhanced permanence of the markings. (And would thus trump the counting sticks entirely if built on its own.)

Bark Working
* Produces the Bark resource, which I think would be better modelled by requiring the Bark Worker building. If you want bark in every city, build the worker in every city, which makes more sense than apparently have huge shipments of bark sent between your cities. The Ecstasy Lab can do without the bark requirement, as your empire should be long past such things by then.

I don't think huge shipments are an appropriate envisioning in the prehistoric era anyhow. A barter trade would be sufficient.

Sewing
* Similarly, the Clothing resource is rather odd. Are we to assume that a civ without this 'resource' has naked citizens? I think it would make much more sense to have those things which reference clothing to instead rely on the Seamstress' Hut or the Tailor's Shop. This would make the clothing-related buildings much more of an opportunity cost, rather than "oh, I have a Seamstress's Hut somewhere in my empire".

There will definitely be equipments that operate off of this resource.

Atlatl Making
* This is another weak-feeling tech. Perhaps Sidestep II would be better in Spearfishing and its two units moved to Axe/Spear Making, which could then be renamed Weapon Making (and become an important go-to tech for militarists). The remaining bonus commerce to the Stone Tools Workshop could then either disappear to help the economy, or bundle with Weapon Making's bonus to give +2 commerce instead.

I don't think we can accuse a tech that offers one of the core military upgrades to be weak in the least. Having all these units unlock at differing techs means you should be taking stock of the makeup of the incoming forces if you're being attacked, or the primary forces used for defense if you plan to invade, and wisely select which units to shoot for first to get the needed military advantage. Slamming them all together into one tech would be a horrible injustice to the elegance of strategery that's been established here.

Earth Oven
* This has just one building. Wouldn't the Imu be better off in Fire Making?

One powerful building - extra food at a time when it really can matter. Again, a powerful tech for the player despite its impotence in variety.


More later...

 

[Arakhor]

Slamming them all together into one tech would be a horrible injustice to the elegance of strategery that's been established here.

That's fair enough. I didn't really think my point there was very good. I was however working from the point of view that so many of the other techs are extremely well featured and the ones I've mentioned are, well, not so.

One powerful building - extra food at a time when it really can matter. Again, a powerful tech for the player despite its impotence in variety.

Maybe you could add in a minor effect to reduce flammability then, just so the tech is completely bare otherwise? After all, if you're cooking inside an earth oven, chances are that the place is less likely to catch fire. I'm not sure what the point of even having Flammability is, but presumably this would be a good place to add some sort of each counter to the system.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Maybe you could add in a minor effect to reduce flammability then, just so the tech is completely bare otherwise? After all, if you're cooking inside an earth oven, chances are that the place is less likely to catch fire. I'm not sure what the point of even having Flammability is, but presumably this would be a good place to add some sort of each counter to the system.

Flammability increases your chance for the Fire Event. Buildings with high flammability are more likely to burn down. Water sources such as a Town Well or anti-fire like Fire Brigade provide ways to lower your flammability. Unlike the other properties they are static and do no increase each turn, but rather stack up their base values. Thus if you have one building give +5 and other +3 then your city will have +8. And it should stay there until you add another flammability or anti-flammability building.

Note things like the Education Property and Crimes (ex. Arsonist) can increase it thought their pseudo-buildings.

 

[Thunderbrd]

That's fair enough. I didn't really think my point there was very good. I was however working from the point of view that so many of the other techs are extremely well featured and the ones I've mentioned are, well, not so.

So are you saying that having value in a tech means having a lot of variety of things happening there? The most potent techs, much like sentences, are often the ones that say the least. There SHOULD be variety in how much a tech gives. If they give a lot of varying effects those effects should be fairly minor. If they give few effects, those effects they give should be potent. There should be a mix of this approach throughout the tech tree (and in the Prehistoric so far there really is that blend.)

IMO, unlocking one of the strongest non-mounted units of the era that can be an absolute savior if you've come under attack is about as potent as it gets. I think it would be wrong to put much more there unless it was somehow related to that unit or weapon type.

Maybe you could add in a minor effect to reduce flammability then, just so the tech is completely bare otherwise? After all, if you're cooking inside an earth oven, chances are that the place is less likely to catch fire. I'm not sure what the point of even having Flammability is, but presumably this would be a good place to add some sort of each counter to the system.

I like this idea... but -

Flammability increases your chance for the Fire Event. Buildings with high flammability are more likely to burn down. Water sources such as a Town Well or anti-fire like Fire Brigade provide ways to lower your flammability. Unlike the other properties they are static and do no increase each turn, but rather stack up their base values. Thus if you have one building give +5 and other +3 then your city will have +8. And it should stay there until you add another flammability or anti-flammability building.

Note things like the Education Property and Crimes (ex. Arsonist) can increase it thought their pseudo-buildings.

Are you saying a tech in and of itself cannot directly reduce flammability? We could give an autobuild I suppose. Makes sense that a safer way to cook would reduce flammability as well as those things you've mentioned. I can agree that Earth Oven could use a little more umph and I'm coming from the balance of power accessed at various techs rather than a balance of variety in opened factors.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Slash and Burn
* Is burning forests and vegetation really worthy of a whole tech by itself? We already have Controlled Fire and Fire Making, plus Earth Ovens.
* The tech name is two verbs, rather than nouns or adverbs. Perhaps it could be renamed to fit in slightly better?

I do think the tech's benefit does warrant it's own tech placement on the tree. It's a pretty significant ability to unlock - even if you might still want to hold off on using it as much as you can until you can start getting some production out of those destroyed features - it can make a difference in where you place some improvements and cities so is pretty significant.

As for the naming... any suggestions? I can't think of better myself.

Conduct
* Other than Crime (Corruption) which is unlocked here, the only point of this tech is to build an Executioner's Hut. I don't think it would be unbalancing at all to move both of them to Chiefdom (and maybe adjust Chiefdom's tech cost if that's an issue).

This is a 'newer' tech and I've had my eye on it for a few new things. I'd like to introduce a 1 pt Law Enforcement unit at this tech - just been focused elsewhere.

Falconry
* This is another underwhelming tech, granting only two buildings and penalising the Myth of Birds, so there's little reason to take this tech until you want Aristocracy in the Classical Era.
* Why is this a Prehistoric tech? Even its own civilipedia text suggests a date of 2000 BC, which I would have thought places it in the Ancient Era.

I think Hydro answered to the second concern pretty well.

As for the first... the buildings it unlocks are very handy. There's not too many sources of espionage bonuses to be had in the Prehistoric so it's water to a dry area. Additionally, if you've been clever and held your subdued hawks and eagles, you'll be able to get these valuable buildings for free which is always a major plus. (Another reason these unlock during the prehistoric.) Stuffing it all into poultry would make an overloaded poultry domestication tech even more overloaded.

IMO, the amount this tech unlocks is completely optimal and we have too many techs that give too much at once. That said, I think some cool new unit lines around birds were suggested that this tech would be perfect for landing those new units on.

Miscellaneous Sounds and Text
* The Hit and Run promotion needs to have a capitalised R.
* The Bark resource conflicts with the Bark promotion in the Civilopedia. I suggest renaming the promotion.
* Religious techs have the same name as their religion messes with the Civilopedia's hot-linking system.
* The Christianity tech is missing its strategy section.
* Falconry's strategy needs redoing, apparently.
* Atlatl Making and Spearfishing still have the same tech quote.

All great observations. Wouldn't know how to rename the promo though... bark is pretty specific and intentional and would lose something there if renamed I think. Maybe Tree Bark as a renaming of the resource would be easier.

We don't really have anyone that's addressing small xml issues like these at the moment so if someone wants to step up and resolve these I'm sure we'd all appreciate it.

* Can the AI handle the Culture wonders? They can be pretty expensive and then grant access to the Cree unit (or what-have-you), which they don't appear to use. What's more, the AI tend to like building those wonders and then not doing anything with them, which is not a good idea. I think the vanilla idea of unique units by civilisation (making the Assimilation option interesting) is a much more effective idea.

They build the wonders so they're able to handle them. The units are being included in their considerations but there's some deep flaws in the unfinished unit evaluation AI.

BTW, Assimilation can still get you the fundamental 'ethnic' base culture of another civ. Lots of plans for how cultures will work in greater depth are pending further development. The civ you select to start with will at some point here be next to meaningless as the culture(s) you've obtained and selected to adopt will define that side of things.

I've never been sure if I was quite happy that we stopped having cultural units 'replace' a core unit - in many ways I think that still works a little better but we've enabled more unique unit expressions to get away from that so there's some tradeoffs there.

* Ritualism and Soft-Hammer Percussion both seem to unlock the Public Stoning building, which seems a bit odd.

Is this an OR prereq?

* Why is Cactus Hill under Axe Making? Wouldn't it be better under Flint Knapping or Fine Edge Tools?

Don't know the background to Cactus Hill well enough to comment on that but it's good these have been scattered throughout a number of techs rather than all at once.

You might be right, hard to say without looking at it deeper myself. What makes Axe Making less valid though?

* What is the point of the Stone Tools resource? It's unlocked by Hard-Hammer Percussion, given out by various wonders and seems to do nothing.

Reading Hydro's answer on that it seems we'll have to see, once equipments come into play, if this should be split up or eliminated or whatever... yeah... loose string is all.

* The shared resource mechanic is particularly odd in the case of organic resources, such as Grass, Bark, Vines and Straw. Are we to assume that cities are literally sending boats and what-have-you between each city, loaded with these perishable resources, rather than simply building the appropriate Prehistoric building and having a local supply? Having them as resources also implies that they have timeless appeal, which is very hard to suggest in almost any later era.

Are resources about appeal or necessity? (I suppose in some cases both...)

 

[Arakhor]

Have you considered merging Earth Oven and Slash & Burn? They're both applied uses of fire at roughly the same time and they're both single-interest techs.

If your optimal tech is to reveal two or three buildings or units, then yes, I'd agree that you have some very over-stuffed techs. My main point about what techs reveal is that each of them (of course) costs various beakers and they provide significantly differing rewards for those beakers. For instance, Chopping, Slashing and Piercing each cost more than either Hard-Hammer or Soft-Hammer Percussion and each provide less for that increased cost.

I queried Cactus Hill because its description mentions flint tools (not weapons), but the Wikipedia entry mentions hafted flint tools used for butchering, which admittedly does sound like a very primitive hand-axe.

My main proviso for resources is relevance - will tree bark, vines and what-have-you be relevant in later eras? If not, they should go obsolete at the very least.