Presidential Pardons?

[Bill3000]

Democrats give out more pardons than republicans. Jimmy Carter is the current record holder afaik, but I am pretty sure Clinton is second only to him.

Still stupid no matter what president does it!

 

[.Shane.]

Well, it's obvious you aren't in favor of the deceased ex-president if you wanted to try him and imprison him.

lol, I don't want to try and imprison him FROM BEYOND THE GRAVE! ROFL at the idea that holding someone legally accountable = OMG I HATE THEM!

Interesting you think his (debateable) accomplishments should excuse his illegal behavior. I had no idea you were so soft on crime.

@MB, here's a list, pre-Dubya.... list Glad I could count on you to play the partisan card, when the record shows that its pretty broad across the board in the post-WWII years. I'm a bit blown away by the Truman/Ike #s. I'm wondering if there weren't a lot of forgiving going on for WWII transgressions of a more minor nature?

 

[amadeus]

lol, I don't want to try and imprison him FROM BEYOND THE GRAVE!

Yes, because I totally wrote in present tense.

 

[.Shane.]

Yes, because I totally wrote in present tense.

lol, thanks for ignoring the real point of my post just to troll me w/ your inability to notice humor. Because, OMG, I WAS SERIOUS. Would you feel better if I did another John Edwards joke?

Why waste your time here, anyway? Given your stance on Nixon I suspect you'd be busy writing "Free Mumia" letters to all Congressional representatives.

 

[Norton II]

A lot of the stuff on that list shouldn't even be illegal. Especially moonshining.

 

[MobBoss]

@MB, here's a list, pre-Dubya.... list Glad I could count on you to play the partisan card, when the record shows that its pretty broad across the board in the post-WWII years. I'm a bit blown away by the Truman/Ike #s. I'm wondering if there weren't a lot of forgiving going on for WWII transgressions of a more minor nature?

Actually, shane...your link pretty much confirms what I alleged. Dems routinely gave out more pardons that their republican contemporaries. You may consider it partisan to point it out, but its also just the truth. Compare Truman (democrat) to Eisenhower (republican)....Trumans numbers almost double Eisenhowers. Ditto with Kennedy/Johnson as opposed to Nixon/Ford. And again with Carter/Clinton vs Reagan/Bush 41 and 43.

 

[Bill3000]

Actually, shane...your link pretty much confirms what I alleged. Dems routinely gave out more pardons that their republican contemporaries. You may consider it partisan to point it out, but its also just the truth. Compare Truman (democrat) to Eisenhower (republican)....Trumans numbers almost double Eisenhowers. Ditto with Kennedy/Johnson as opposed to Nixon/Ford. And again with Carter/Clinton vs Reagan/Bush 41 and 43.

'cept it's entirely irrelevant to his point.

 

[JollyRoger]

Pardons are a good thing if the President doesn't care about backing the reasoning of his current Justice department. Bush's stated reasons for pardoning Libby went against what the Justice Department always argues and were reasons that were rejected in a significant 2007 Supreme Court case. There is now a motion known as a "Libby Motion" that uses the President's reasoning on the Libby pardon to try to cut criminals a fraction of the break that Libby got.

 

[.Shane.]

Actually, shane...your link pretty much confirms what I alleged. Dems routinely gave out more pardons that their republican contemporaries. You may consider it partisan to point it out, but its also just the truth. Compare Truman (democrat) to Eisenhower (republican)....Trumans numbers almost double Eisenhowers. Ditto with Kennedy/Johnson as opposed to Nixon/Ford. And again with Carter/Clinton vs Reagan/Bush 41 and 43.

If you rank them in order, its something like...

Truman-D
Ike-R
LBJ-D
Nixon-R
Carter-D
JFK-D
Clinton-D
Reagan-R
Ford-R (with the differences between Clinton/Reagan/Ford being statistically insignificant... IE Clinton is 396 pardons, Reagan is 393, Ford 382)
Bush Sr.-R

Seriously, the only one who I think we could praise for not going nuts w/ the privilege is Papa Bush.

I guess my point is that the numbers are not so different between Repub and Dem behavior as to try and make some kind of partisan statement about it.

 

[.Shane.]

Pardons are a good thing if the President doesn't care about backing the reasoning of his current Justice department. Bush's stated reasons for pardoning Libby went against what the Justice Department always argues and were reasons that were rejected in a significant 2007 Supreme Court case. There is now a motion known as a "Libby Motion" that uses the President's reasoning on the Libby pardon to try to cut criminals a fraction of the break that Libby got.

Can you elaborate on this? Any (readable to laymen) linkies for this?

 

[JollyRoger]

Can you elaborate on this? Any (readable to laymen) linkies for this?

n a case decided two weeks ago by the United States Supreme Court and widely discussed by legal specialists in light of the Libby case, the Justice Department persuaded the court to affirm the 33-month sentence of a defendant whose case closely resembled that against Mr. Libby.

. . .

Both Rita and Libby are first-time offenders; both were convicted of the exact same crime. One lied about gun registration; the other lied about his role in outing a covert CIA operative during a time of war.

The president believes the prior should be away for nearly three years, but believes the latter shouldn’t spend a single moment behind bars.

. . .

Sentencing experts said Bush’s action appeared to be without recent precedent. They could not recall another case in which someone sentenced to prison had received a presidential commutation without having served any part of that sentence. Presidents have customarily commuted sentences only when someone has served substantial time.

“We can’t find any cases, certainly in the last half century, where the president commuted a sentence before it had even started to be served,” said Margaret Colgate Love, a former pardon attorney at the Justice Department.

. . .

“It’s far more important than if he’d just pardoned Libby,” Ms. James said, as forgiving a given offense as an act of executive grace would have had only political repercussions. “What you’re going to see is people like me quoting President Bush in every pleading that comes across every federal judge’s desk.”

Indeed, Mr. Bush’s decision may have given birth to a new sort of legal document.

“I anticipate that we’re going to get a new motion called ‘the Libby motion,’ ” Professor Podgor said. “It will basically say, ‘My client should have got what Libby got, and here’s why.’ “

* “According to federal data, the average sentence for those found guilty of obstruction of justice was 70 months, not zero.

http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/11337.html

 

[Stewbert 08]

Amazing how many people hate Nixon after all the things he did that the left absolutely loves.

Wage and price controls, Supplemental Security, OSHA, the EPA, affirmative action, the federal 55 mile an hour speed limits, SALT, the ABM Treaty... today's Democrats would be having spontaneous multiple orgasms if we had another president like that.

You forgot China!

Nixon did a lot of good things because he was a pragmatic president. He did what he thought was best for the country whether or not it conformed to a particular ideology. The divide between Nixon and later Republican presidents couldn't be clearer - part of the reason why these later prez's have screwed our country so badly.

Nixon also had a power complex. Nixon also broke the law repeatedly & conspired against our laws, the justice system & the public. Nixon should have been impeached, tried and imprisoned for life.

I don't see a conflict here. I guess for someone who's soaked in DeLayan philosophy that the ends justify the means, and that therefore I'd only want to lock someone up if I disagreed with his politics, there'd be a conflict...

I don't want to try and imprison him FROM BEYOND THE GRAVE!

I'm down with that!

Seriously, the only one who I think we could praise for not going nuts w/ the privilege is Papa Bush.

Totally wrong, Bush I is one of the worst offenders, for pardoning his co-criminals in Iran Contra.

Don't go by the numbers, MobBoss is being silly again.

 

[JollyRoger]

Totally wrong, Bush I is one of the worst offenders, for pardoning his co-criminals in Iran Contra.

Don't go by the numbers, MobBoss is being silly again.

Yep, Papa Bush was going for quality over quantity.

 

[Ecofarm]

/gets ready for the "OMG CLINTON AHAHAHAH" crapstorm.

Let the crapstorm begin! Sorry it's not so "haha"...

Clinton issued 140 pardons as well as several commutations on his last day of office (January 20, 2001).[11]

Perhaps the worst were the terrorists he let go.

He had a little coke friend too.

Do they all pardon bankers and tax evaders?

A list of pardons by type of crime might be interesting to compare. I think often the people were involved in stuff that the pres was a part of in some way (whitewater, etc.) and that's why there's lots of bankers and tax evaders.

This one has got to be Clinton's most stomach turning:

Melvin J. Reynolds, a Democratic Congressman from Illinois, who was convicted of bank fraud, 12 counts of sexual assault, obstruction of justice, and solicitation of child pornography had his sentence commuted on the bank fraud charged and was allowed to serve the final months under the auspices of a half way house. He had served his entire sentence on child sex abuse charges before the commutation of the later convictions.

If there is anything that makes me think capital punishment might be ok, it is that. No sentance could be long enough. No sentence could be served.

 

[Bill3000]

Let the crapstorm begin! Sorry it's not so "haha"...

Are you forgetting that he already said that pardons suck and are abused?

 

[Ecofarm]

We should put a requirement on them. 20% approval by the senate.

Deal?

If a few more people were responsible for them, I hope they would be less abused.

 

[Bill3000]

That would probably require an amendment, though...

 

[.Shane.]

If a few more people were responsible for them, I hope they would be less abused.

I'm not sure how to fix it in a way that wouldn't politicize every pardon. There's a need for better transparency. Hell, some guidelines would be nice.

Maybe just get rid of the power altogether?

 

[Ecofarm]

I think the president is privy to information that most people are not, and some that almost no-one else is. This power allows for that to have impact on justice. Well, it's supposed to...

I'm not trying to politicize it by requiring 20% approval, I'm just trying to legitimize it beyond my own non-attempt to defend the constitutionality. Let's go 10%, err, 5 senators approve it.

It's not political. It's 5 more people that have to put that pardon on their record.

Or let's defend it constitutionally.

Either way, we need an amendment if we are not satisfied with it as is?

Pardon Amendment: 5 Senators must put the pardon on thier record, to be scrutinized and used against them by political opponents. If you cannot get 5 people to put it on their record, the criminal stays in prison.

 

[ParkCungHee]

justice > "stability".

Ideally yes. Nixon deserved to be punished for his crime. However this is not an ideal world. Seeing Tricky Dick go to jail for 5 years does is not worth endangering the republic over.