PreSLNES I: Masters of Ethereal

[Starlife]

Never played that game to know what you are talking about, but sure

I never did either, actually. But I remember seeing some of the new decks at hobby shops and thinking, "Really?"

Seon: Do you have any ideas based on what I said, in how we could change it without doubling/tripling my personal workload for each update?

Would it be preferable to just get rid of racial advantages and terrain preferences altogether, and have nothing replacing them?

 

[Shadowbound]

Stereotypes are not always a terrible thing, by the way. You yourself said unique racial traits should be extremely stereotypical concepts.

How races fight well and where they fight well. I thought the advantage of Elves fighting well in forests was a bit trite because... if a player gives good orders for fighting in a grassland, why should they be penalized?

Because you seem to keep coming back to criticize this single suggestion; 1) you had already determined that certain races live in certain areas, and I suggested, as an example of a passive bonus, that they be more effective in these areas, just like how dwarves would know their way around mountains because they live there, and 2) the exact same trait that elves are more effective in forests came to my mind because it was also in the original ruleset, the portions that I recovered I gave to you.

This is not a stereotype to say that soldiers who are familiar with their environment will be more effective in it.

When I mention "creativity", it isn't an attack on you. It is just a simple explanation that there are certain aspects to this game that any system won't be able to completely define.

I do not think you are criticizing me and I know you are making suggestions, which I am always open to. What I am bothered by is more a lack of attempting to understand the kind of game I am trying to run. Just because it is based on MoO, doesn't mean anything. It is completely different systematically.

Different words, same line of personal attack. I've been quiet and attempted to understand what you are doing, that is why I am bringing up the issue of creativity instead of balance. I shifted the tone of my comments in response to what you've said is your goal for this game, and instead of being labelled uncreative I am being labelled narrow-minded. Every single moderator has an unique vision for their NES, I just happen to have done a lot of thinking on a fantasy fresh start and am familiar with a significant portion of your ruleset.

It is your opinion that my rules don't create balance or encourage creativity. You have spoken, and I have heard you. What else is there to say, at this point? If you don't want to play - don't play. It's that simple.

That happens to be what I am doing. I am just lurking to see the map, and will keep my thoughts to myself from now on.

EDIT: [/lurk] That lasted ten seconds. It is too late to take away racial advantages, I would not recommend that and have not suggested it. I dislike the tack you took in implementing them, but your players have made use of them and it would be unfair to jerk the rug out from under them. [lurk]

 

[Starlife]

Shadowbound: I'll tell you one more time, I am not attacking you. I have nothing against you. That's it.

This is not a stereotype to say that soldiers who are familiar with their environment will be more effective in it.

To get this straight. I feel it is more reasonable to say soldiers will fight better in their kingdoms. If an Elf goes to a distant forest, he might know a lot about the forest - but that doesn't mean he will automatically be awesome at fighting there.

 

[Immaculate]

I've edited my submission.

 

[Starlife]

EDIT: [/lurk] That lasted ten seconds. It is too late to take away racial advantages, I would not recommend that and have not suggested it. I dislike the tack you took in implementing them, but your players have made use of them and it would be unfair to jerk the rug out from under them. [lurk]

I agree. I think players have made great use of them, which is what I was saying before. When you look at what they have written, it would be a shame to suddenly change things.

Basically: My world of Ethereal is like this. That is what I want. I know it isn't "unique" enough or whatever. But it is these traditions that I admire and these traditions I wish to include in this game.

 

[Starlife]

I've edited my submission.

It looks good, except I am hesitant to make Summons permanent.
The fortress could remain for as long as you could sustain it with half the mana cost. After you can no longer sustain it, it would vanish.
The power/defense capabilities of the fortress would be defined by the spell's power, as well.

How does this sound to you?

 

[LDiCesare]

Would it be preferable to just get rid of racial advantages and terrain preferences altogether, and have nothing replacing them?

Since you ask, in my opinion, yes I think it is preferable, because:

thus causing players to choose a race based on those advantages, rather than choose a race and then choose their own.

This is definitely not what I did. I want to play a human race, so what do I get to choose from? High men don't really fit the culture I envision, in fact would rather be opposite. In addition, the advantages they have corner them into unit types I don't want, so I pick the other choice left. Now let's see what I can do with these bonuses.
I also believe dark elf players picked them mostly because they are dark elves.
So I picked 1) based on race then 2) negatively on advantages. On advantages alone, I'd have modified the units slightly and still picked the dark elves.

 

[Seon]

I never did either, actually. But I remember seeing some of the new decks at hobby shops and thinking, "Really?"

Seon: Do you have any ideas based on what I said, in how we could change it without doubling/tripling my personal workload for each update?

Would it be preferable to just get rid of racial advantages and terrain preferences altogether, and have nothing replacing them?

Yes, let the players calculate cost of everything they pay money for in their order, and also tell them to include their stats in it, including their racial modifiers. Punish them later if you catch them intentionally manipulating the cost.

You might as well have this if you are planning on having unique units for every castle we capture

 

[Starlife]

Punish, eh? Sounds violent. But necessary in the situation. Because that was my main issue with letting players allocate 20 gold in discounts - my personal ability to maintain this NES if that were the case. Unique units per castle is easy. I created them already, and I have a listing of them that can be navigated via search and then calculated through the unit's stats.

Yet. If I spent some time, I could arrange a similar spreadsheet for players with their unique advantages (trust me, it's important - don't want to get bogged down, here).

I would ask people to organize it how I did in the generic race traits:

Barbarians: Leather and Shield are 0 gold. Swords and Axes/Heavy Weapons are 0 gold.
Barbarians require manpower, and the lightest armor possible is perfect for this reason. They are also masters at many types of swords and heavy weapons, which has made them perfect marauders.

I would ask for not only what will cost what with your 20 gold discount, but also why. A short explanation about your culture and how it merits such discounts. Just as I did for each race.

*

How does this sound?

 

[Starlife]

@Immac: Check your math on your spell. It should cost a lot less.

 

[Starlife]

If we change to unique traits per player, Cities will simply be sources of gold. No units can be trained there. Units can only be trained in your Citadel and in castles you capture.

And one of the concepts of the game which is to encourage players to capture cities of other races for specific purposes will thus be eliminated. Now any city is any city, only better for its size/gold income. Castles will be what players want for new units. I am fine with this.

 

[Immaculate]

Just go with what you have. lets launch this thing.

 

[LDiCesare]

I would ask for not only what will cost what with your 20 gold discount, but also why. A short explanation about your culture and how it merits such discounts. Just as I did for each race.

I don't think it's necessary to change at this stage. Most, if not all, interested players, have already fit into the ruleset you proposed. Changing it now won't result in much. Furthermore, as I already said, it's better imo to allow a total discount for all units rather than a racial discount which may or may not end up being used for all units. Plus there's the default unit to consider.

And one of the concepts of the game which is to encourage players to capture cities of other races for specific purposes will thus be eliminated. Now any city is any city, only better for its size/gold income. Castles will be what players want for new units. I am fine with this.

That would be sad. It is important and interesting to capture cities of other races and have the ability to have multiracial armies. Even more important to be able to raise armies in cities, even if they are of a generic kind.

 

[Vertinari118]

I would agree. Changing now would not achieve anything, create more work for you and delay the start of the game. No ruleset will ever be perfect so we might as well get started.

 

[Seon]

Speaking of which, as I now know that the race need not be the wizard's race, My nation template may need some revising

 

[Seon]

But then again what's the point.

Let's get the darn show started!

 

[Immaculate]

vroom vroom!!!

 

[Terrance888]

Enchant/Curse(?)
Within Kingdom (0)
Direct Hit (50)
Refined (100)
A spell that, when cast by a wizard, creates a song that corrupts the minds of all sentient beings with ill intent towards the dark elves, forcing them to attack each other. the last man standing then has a 5% chance of becoming a Dark Elf himself, in which case he becomes a one man assassin unit, loyal only to Arya. High/Dark Elves are immune.

So the great Arya of RealPolitick will doom a city or town within her kingdom to get a 5% chance of getting a dark elf assassin?

 

[Starlife]

@LDi: You are confusing me. On one hand, my racial traits are good because they promote a use for multiracial armies. On another hand, they limit players' options. I agree, though. But in a way, I guess I wanted to limit players' options, to streamline things.

I would like the Wizard to be the primary race, anyway, Seon.

OK, current ruleset stands.

I guess I want to reiterate, that your racial bonus is mostly set in stone to promote multiracial armies.

I hope this makes sense. What I mean is, if you want the free Skilled Magic trait, go out and find a Castle with that trait to train a unit with free Skilled Magic. Or go out and conquer a Dark Elf city.

 

[Starlife]

Attention!

I will be posting the map sometime today. I am not going to tell you when. Claims will be done a first-come, first-serve basis. It is easier if you have a paint program and can mark specifically where you want your Citadel to be. It can be anywhere on the map. If you are building unique unit ships, you should probably put your Citadel on the coast.

About the Rules

The current ruleset stands. I have my reasons. Here they are:

1. Players have already made profiles. And they look awesome.

2. Changing the rules so that each player has unique racial traits would eliminate important concepts that I wanted to put forth in this NES. They are the following:

A. Encouraging players to form multiracial kingdoms and armies. With each race having their unique traits, it will cause players to seek out those traits and thus conquer cities or castles that offer unique traits that might be valuable to them. This is highly strategic. Imagine an Ethereal in which each player had their own unique traits that they designed. They would have everything they could possibly need, and would not attempt to seek out any new traits. The way I have limited each race in this respect will make it so you want to seek out locations that will offer you useful traits.

B. Having each player with unique traits would be an unnecessary complication for me, your mod, who wishes to keep this going for as long as possible.

Got it? Good.