Prevent late game stagnation!

For me I really like expanding and fighting early & mid game but tend to turtle up and go for a space race when I know I've got the game won.

I have to remind myself to keep up the onslaught, keep attacking and go for the throat. This save I'm gonna keep pushing myself all they way. I know it's my fault not the game's though.
 
Good thread about something that is very true. 90% of the time I reach modern era it is a foregone conclusion if I am going to win or not and does become a boring timewaster if you want to get to the end. I also have never liked the difficulty settings of just giving the AI a big head start to play at the harder levels.

I am hoping Civ V changes this up and I have a feeling it might. Maybe it is just wishful thinking but I am hoping the much improved 5-Layered strategic AI thingymabobber that we have been reading about fixes this and has a better understanding of what it takes to win the end game and hopefully an idea of how far along the other opponents are. Part of the boring is because the other AI basically sits back and does nothing while you coast to victory.

I am hoping for an AI that may recognize I need to slow this opponent down any way possible and throw some wrenches in the spokes along the way. I also hope maybe a couple of different types of victories multiple players might be getting close to at the end game that would make things much more interesting. You may be finishing up Space Race while another is getting close to culture victory. This almost never happens for me in previous Civ's.

All we can do is hope for the best but I would love it to be a challenge all the way through leading to some crazy or exciting finishes.

Does anyone know if the AI easy to difficult will still be just a head start for the AI? Like a chess game I am hoping that there will be no more head starts just more efficient and better AI at higher dificulty settings.
 
Does anyone know if the AI easy to difficult will still be just a head start for the AI? Like a chess game I am hoping that there will be no more head starts just more efficient and better AI at higher dificulty settings.

While I haven't seen it confirmed, you can take for granted that the AI will receive bonuses on higher difficulties. Civ is much more complex than chess and it will still take years before we see and AI advanced enough to compete and be fun to play against without certain advantages.
 
In the early game, you're in a race with the AI (wonders, tech lead, founding religions, etc.). In the late game, you're just waiting for the inevitable. So, I'd say the problem isn't the era so much as the AI; if the AI were able to keep up to the modern era, it'd make for some dramatic finishes.

I think this is the key. Make the AI more actively challenge us at the end. Most of my space race victories are "boring" but I had one in which my AI neighbor declared war on me and crossed into my space with a "huge" stack of units. A much bigger stack than I have ever seen an AI have before. I had a stack but not that big of a stack so it was a major challenge to "hold on" to my capital until my ship made it to AC. I lost a few cities but still won the game.

It would be fun to see the AI come after me to prevent the space race victory.
 
I am hoping Civ V changes this up and I have a feeling it might. Maybe it is just wishful thinking but I am hoping the much improved 5-Layered strategic AI thingymabobber that we have been reading about fixes this and has a better understanding of what it takes to win the end game and hopefully an idea of how far along the other opponents are. Part of the boring is because the other AI basically sits back and does nothing while you coast to victory.

Actually yeah, when I think of the modern era I think of the Cold War and World War 2. Basically that involves a lot more good diplomacy from AI's and also attempts to manipulate each other and the player. I think city states will be good to keep the dimplomatic field flowing (by late game I often find that alliances are set). Also if we had some power over the world economy or something that would be cool. And the Un has to have a bigger role, that actually pertains to what is happening in this specific game, not just force everyone into a certain civic.
 
Going with the disaster scenario posted earlier, the Fall from Heaven 2 mod for cIV (greatest mod/fantasy mod ever made for cIV) employed an awesome good/neutral/evil system along with an armageddon counter that rose or fell due to random events or the actions of aligned civilisations.

Essentially what happens is that in the end game, where the armageddon counter is highest, tension breaks out between good and evil civs and great world wars are fought. Along with this, the high armageddon count slowly transforms the world's terrain into hell terrain (which is, to all intent and purpose, useless). Evil civs can exasperate the counter by doing evil actions (razing cities, producing evil units, choosing evil random events and spreading evil religions) while good civs can reduce the counter by doing good actions (not razing cities, blessing the ruins of destroyed cities, destroying evil units, building wonders, etc.)

In essence, end game becomes a race against destruction for the good player and a race to destruction (or ascension) for the evil player.

Of course most of this would not be applicable to vanilla ciV since it would have to emulate real world history, but you get the idea.

Also the presence of hero units made the game more interesting as a whole. I'm hoping that great generals will be expanded so that they can acquire tons of promotions and truly represent the player in game.
 
I think Firaxis needs to give the end game some new "mini-game"...

In the beginning (true to the 4x strategy), you have 4 main activities:
- exploration
- war
- research
- building (improvements and city evolution/wonders)

But half-way through the game exploration ends, leaving you with one less. And before the end, research ends also, leaving you with half the variety of things to do.

To compensate they already have one new activity - Diplomacy - It's almost non existent to start with but evolves to become important, culmination on UN votings.

Never the less I think they need to make diplomacy more involving and funny, and come up with a different aspect to the end game. To prevent people from getting bored.

Spying might be one way but it has to be well though. I don't think they were able to nail spying the right way in previous Civs.
 
What I don't understand is why more games/companies don't emulate Stardock and its "the AI learns from successful players" idea. In their games (at least GalCivII), successful players can submit their game record and the AI learns from them the best build queues and other strategies. I have great hopes for the Civ5 AI, but I think all AIs could benefit from this type of data gathering/cloud-ish computing.

As for the other items discussed here I like the idea of the Revolutions mod. I will have to look into that further, but the idea of keep a stable civilization (and possibly promoting stability overseas) seems like an interesting late game challenge - a sort of post-scarcity challenge (at least in terms of civ elements like buildings, technology, etc).

But my favorite idea that i have come up with, based on some ideas here, would be some "general victory conditions" for the late game. In my view these general victory conditions would be a mix of the mini-objectives you get in Civ4 ("be the first to build 8 knights") and the social policies/cultural victory in Civ5. I would have some late game technologies, or late game events, or UN actions enable these general victory conditions. Such things could be major production, science, military, cultural expenditures like "give 15 tanks and 15 infantry for global UN peacekeeping operations" or "donate 2000 gold to the WHO to fight hunger and disease" or "establish technology pacts with a majority of foreign governments", etc. Each victory condition would be worth a certain number of points toward total victory (weighted for balance and difficulty), with total victory coming at, say, 10 victory points. The normal victory conditions could be included here by simply having each of them be worth the 10 needed points. (If any of you have played Twilight Imperium 3, my idea is similar to their victory points system.)

I think this type of building up to victory would be complementary to the current system - builders would have something more complex to do over the final span of game, cities won't have to sit idle if they aren't specialized toward the major victory condition you are pursuing, no single achievement ends the game so you have to have a balance to your capabilities, and some could be made that would enhance diplomacy in the end game (for example, the troops donated to the UN could actually be deployed to war zones on the map as voted for in the UN) more than just getting a majority of the voting nations in the game to vote for you (I have always been disappointed by the UN and the diplomatic victory conditions in Civ games).
 
What I don't understand is why more games/companies don't emulate Stardock and its "the AI learns from successful players" idea. In their games (at least GalCivII), successful players can submit their game record and the AI learns from them the best build queues and other strategies. I have great hopes for the Civ5 AI, but I think all AIs could benefit from this type of data gathering/cloud-ish computing.

Why wait for users to submit game records? I'm sure Steamworks could be used to gather this data without the player's knowledge.

0h n032 H4x0R2 fr0m Fir4xi5 4r3 in my c0mpu73r 57341ing my 57r473gi35!!111!!1!!1

:mischief: :lol:

Seriously this sounds like a really good idea, but I'm not sure we ever saw improvements in the GalCivII AI that could be directly attributed to this data.
Even after the latest (final?) patch it was far from challenging.


As for the other items discussed here I like the idea of the Revolutions mod. I will have to look into that further, but the idea of keep a stable civilization (and possibly promoting stability overseas) seems like an interesting late game challenge - a sort of post-scarcity challenge (at least in terms of civ elements like buildings, technology, etc).
I have tried various revolutions mods and they have some interesting mechanics, but I could never get past the fact that keeping my empire stable felt less like fun and more like repetitive busy work. I don't think the ideal way to do this has been found yet. In particular I found the stability issues arose too early and before sufficient means to control them had arisen. Even as a peaceful builder (in some cases especially as a peaceful builder) it was hard to manage and kept forcing me to war.

If we are looking for a late game equivalent to exploration and research I think we should be looking at things like prospecting, economic development and some variation on corporations to boost production, late-game research, and introduce new diplomatic options. I especially like prospecting (as in locating and exploiting important mineral deposits) not just on one's own land but through diplomatic and economic agreements with smaller Civs and City States.

Which actually introduces another late game change I would like to see. There should come a point (around the time a human player quits and starts a new game :) ) that an AI Civ should accept they are not going to win but instead looks for a larger Civ to support, based on things like proximity, power and diplomatic history. This would have the effect of creating a host of new 'city state'-like dynamics as the larger Civs vie for the affections of those smaller Civs that have switched from an objective of winning to one of surviving and hopefully picking the side that will win.

But my favorite idea that i have come up with, based on some ideas here, would be some "general victory conditions" for the late game. In my view these general victory conditions would be a mix of the mini-objectives you get in Civ4 ("be the first to build 8 knights") and the social policies/cultural victory in Civ5. I would have some late game technologies, or late game events, or UN actions enable these general victory conditions. Such things could be major production, science, military, cultural expenditures like "give 15 tanks and 15 infantry for global UN peacekeeping operations" or "donate 2000 gold to the WHO to fight hunger and disease" or "establish technology pacts with a majority of foreign governments", etc. Each victory condition would be worth a certain number of points toward total victory (weighted for balance and difficulty), with total victory coming at, say, 10 victory points. The normal victory conditions could be included here by simply having each of them be worth the 10 needed points. (If any of you have played Twilight Imperium 3, my idea is similar to their victory points system.)
I think this type of building up to victory would be complementary to the current system - builders would have something more complex to do over the final span of game, cities won't have to sit idle if they aren't specialized toward the major victory condition you are pursuing, no single achievement ends the game so you have to have a balance to your capabilities, and some could be made that would enhance diplomacy in the end game (for example, the troops donated to the UN could actually be deployed to war zones on the map as voted for in the UN) more than just getting a majority of the voting nations in the game to vote for you (I have always been disappointed by the UN and the diplomatic victory conditions in Civ games).
I think there is some real merit to this idea. I have always felt there should be some ability to aggregate achievements throughout history as part of measuring the success of your game. In fact I wonder if it would be possible to award victory points for the most successful Civilization during each era, not as an absolute measure (i.e. largest at end of era wins) but using a relative measure, so the most successful Civ during an era would be determined by which was the most improved.

I particularly like the sentence I have bolded in the quote...the mastery mod for Civ4 and later BTS, which introduced "a new victory condition that approaches "winning" from a more comprehensive perspective", was always one of my favourites; That mod combined with some accumulation of victory points over time would be a winner for me.
 
I think that a potential solution to this problem would be to make citizens more difficult to please as your civilization advances (could be a combination of civilization size, wealth and technology). Failing to address this would result in lower productivity (not sure how unhappiness works in Civ5, I'm just following from the "unhappy citizen refuses to work" model). Perhaps also (but this is unlikely to appear in Civ5), that a certain amount of unhappiness could cause cities to break away from your empire as independent city-states.

This is the best idea I've seen so far. And why not combining it with a more aggressive AI that understands if you are going for a Space Race victory or a Cultural victory and making all it can to stop you from winning.
 
I personally like the idea of stability as a means of preventing runaway victories, but there are other things I've thought of-based around similar ideas to what others have posted here.

I never really liked how the Space Race Victory worked (though I preferred it more when you actually had to successfully *make* it to AC before you won ;) ). I'd prefer a more gradual victory-where you achieve points for being the first to "launch satellites", put a person in Orbit, land on the Moon & set up an extra-terrestrial base/colony.

Another thing I liked was the Mastery Victory approach, which made you achieve victory through gradual achievements in a number of different areas.

I think any one of these approaches or-better yet-all together-could really help eliminate late-game tedium!

Aussie.
 
I came up with an idea to spice it up a bit in the late game, inspired partly by the UN and Congresses from RFC.
World Fairs! Starting from the discovery of some Industrial Era economic tech, world fairs get hosted by certain civs, and all civs can choose how much to invest in their own pavilion, which would offer economic rewards with other civs present at the fair. The rewards could vary based on how much the other civs invest, so you have to guess at how economically powerful they are.
Also, diplomacy needs to be far deeper, and it would be cool if civics replaced religions as governing leader relationships (well, that would have been cool in civ 4).
 
yeh the late game can get tedious especially if every one of your 30 cities is churning out constant mech infantry.
 
In Civ V modern warfare will be fun again. This is enough to make modern ages interesting as hell! :)
 
Well, Civ 5 appears to have some sort of "future" age stuck on at the very end which might help extend things a little.

Though I've found that a nice way to go about making late game more dynamic is by making the civilizations themselves more dynamic. Perhaps through something resembling the Revolution mod for Civ 4. When playing that mod or any of it's derivatives my late game is usually spent trying to maintain the empire that I have spent most of the game building up. Due to the revolution mechanic any civ that I sucessfully invade can be prone to constant rebellions and revolutions which can take quite a while to completely get rid of and may then appear again at a later time. It can make Late game very challenging as I try to stabilize unstable regions and prevent my empire from fissioning into a series of smaller Civs.
 
@Luckystrike: I agree, will make the modern age much better.
@Adjutant: Revolution (or LOR) mod would be awesome in civ 5, new citystates popping up from old empires :)

Offtopic: How interesting is hell? :mischief:
 
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