[Preview] Throne and Altar: A Medieval Mod

[ArbitraryGuy]

I'm starting this preview thread so I can get public comment on the map, included civs, possible events, and, especially, on the tech tree for my medieval mod that I have in the works. It will be much more "professional" that EE3, so it's still a long while before completion according to my new standards.

Overview
The scenario/mod will cover the time period from about 1099-1400 AD. Build the power of your kingdom and participate in the crusades - The Reconquista, The Northern Crusades, and in the Holy Land.

Civs
Here's the list of civs included. Speak now if you think someone should be added or taken out. I know some of these didn't exist in 1099 (scenario start), but they were the major powers between 1099 and 1400. Sweden, Portugal, and maybe Scotland might be dropped and replaced with civs like The Baltic Pagans and The Mongols.



Events
I learned python just for this . There are global events and civ-specific random events. Things such as the Mongolian Invasion, the Black Death, the Pope calling for the Crusades, peasant revolts, etc will have events. For example, the Teutonic Order gets the following random event giving them extra troops:


Units
It's hard to simulate medieval warfare. Basic units are as follows: Light Infantry, Heavy Infantry, Pikes, Archers, Crossbows, Knights, and Crusaders (bonus against non-Christian Units -- I have worked this out ) Techs allow an upgrade for the units, e.g. Weaponmaking allows Heavy Infantry II instead of Heavy Infantry I. There will be many UU's. Here are two UU's from the Teutonic Order:

Teutonic Infantry I - III replaces Crusader I - III


Teutonic Knight I - III replaces Knights I - III (extra bonus vs non-Christians)


Map
Here's the map... later I will post it for people to review and comment on it. Note barbarian cities don't show up in this view. This is not the final map, so if things look sparse, don't worry. There's still pleny to work on.


Tech Tree
I'm also taking public comments on the tech tree. Please, let me know what you think. Please note, not all the icons are done yet... that's why a fish is the symbol of chronicling. The image is poor quality, but you get the idea... Click here for Tech Tree Preview

Conclusion
So, let me know what you think. Is there anything that absolutely has to be in a medieval mod?

 

[RED DIAMOND]

I liked your other mod EE3. This one even looks better. Bravo

 

[Kushan]

Hey ArbitraryGuy,

I sent you a pm, please read it a respond to it if you like my idea.

Thanks,

Kushan

 

[Gunner]

This is amazing AG! It looks to be of very good quality.

Your tech tree looks very impressive. There aren't any obvious comments I see just from looking at it like this, you really need to play the game to get a feel for them.

I'm somewhat concerned about the hugeness of the HRE. My understanding was that it really wasn't a cohesive political state on the whole. Maybe you could turn some of those cities barbarian or code some type of events which would penalize its production or something. Also just by looking at the map I would say that Sweden should get a city in the Stockholm area, but maybe there's a barb city there now so I don't know.

I love having events in the game, thats a great idea.

I will confess however that I don't really have much expertise in Medieval history. Now 1419 -1820 I'm pretty good though. Maybe an expansion in the future? I know that those kind of thoughts are light years in the future though.

I really don't have enough time to say any more but I'll be back tommorow with more.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Well, what can I say but.....whooooaaaah. I am totally blown away by this Arbitrary Guy. Between you and Kael, I reckon we can expect to see brilliant scenarios for this game-even before the first official expansion comes out! When you release the game, I seriously plan to reverse engineer your python script in the hopes of learning the ins and outs of Python, 'cause it really sounds like you have been exceptionally creative with this language.
Anyway, keep up the great work, and I can't wait to have a shot at the first playable version .

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[NeverMind]

Looks very promising!

Some remarks on Kievan Rus. Only 3 cities? It was one of the largest "countries" of Middle Ages before Mongol Invasion. Vikings called it "Gardarika" (spell?) - the land of cities. I can provide you with city names and placements, if you are interested.

 

[V. Soma]

Hi, AG!

So, here will the Medieval scenario unfold!

I am looking forward to have a check of the map...
I have the Times Historical World Atlas - a BIG and lovely book,
in which there are maps of historical times, yes, medieval, too.
Maybe it would be good for city names and placement.

I guess geography is kind of same as today, maybe except for rivers,
because in those times rivers were crawling more freely with curves here and there.

On the small map I see in the first post, Sweden looks kind of strange,
but I will see how it turns out...

I sharpen my WB editor

 

[V. Soma]

Just one more comment:

Hungary was real big in just this era, being biggest in the 1300s
- so those 3 little green dots doesn't do justice to this kingdom.

It should defintely have reach of the Adriatic Sea, for eaxample,
and maybe more space in Transsylvania.
(I will check that Times Atlas)

 

[Frederick_]

I have been looking forward to something like this ever since Civ4 hit the stores. I am so glad someone decided to push a project like this!
ArbitraryGuy, if you need some help, I would be very happy to help.

Okey, Im going to edit with some input and suggestions

The map looks very nice, the cityplacement is good. I have a few questions however. You mentioned the prospect of removing Sweden/Portugal/Scotland. Personaly, I would say Sweden and Scotland has to be there to balance the gameplay. Without Scotland, England can grow without hardly any effort, the same goes for Denmark in the event Sweden isnt present. I would argue those two are needed for that very reason.
Portugal however, despite their historical importance, should probably go. 3 major powers in Spain is enough to keep things interesting there, and a small civ with just one city wont do a lot to impact the outcome of wars or diplomacy there.
Taking a look at the far east of the map, Kievan Rus' starting location, I cant help but wonder how the balance will be kept here. Its the same old problem with European maps for Civ, they tend to overpower any civ starting in Rusia. Now, I am not an expert on the history concerning this area, so I will need correction here .
Somehow I feel another civ should be present there. By removing Portugal you have one slot to play with. If its historicaly accurate, why not push down another actor to balance the Kievan Rus?


I just love the look of your Teutonic Knights! Awesome!
And I very much like the upgrade system too. Have you considered releasing certain Combat Upgrades upon discovery of certain Techs to add to the flavor?
A straight Knight I --> Knight II should mean something more than just an increase in the units Strenght-value from 8 --> 10 imo. It might be hard to code, I dont know.

For example, Knights I has but the basic promotions avaliable, such as Combat I-4. But once you discover say a tech called Shock Tactics, you can train Knights II, who can recive the promotion Shock Tactics, wich could add say a set % against melee.
This way, you could, depending on what path in the tech tree you take, tailor your army to suit specific needs.
One thing I dislike about Civ4 is how powerfull some promotions are and how useless others are. The same goes for the generic 8 beats 6. I want to have more options. Take the English Longbow for example, and how it beat the French Knights.


Tech tree. Amazing mate, very nice indeed. Tech names feel authentic and have a good feel to them.
One question thou, what about religious paths? I cant se to find techs with a religious emphasis. I might be wrong?


I cant wait to get my hands on this mod! Untill then, I'll go conquer Europa with EE3

 

[Silica_Pathways]

Sweden, Portugal, and maybe Scotland might be dropped for better game-play speed.

NO!!!111 Let the bums upgrade their pc's, not u downgrade your mod! I want as realistic as possible and as many civs as possible

*edit* Where's Sweden and Denmark in map ? No cities, settlers only ? That sucks and i doubt they had no cities in those times...

 

[woodelf]

Impressive AG. I can't wait for to try this one out.

 

[Shqype]

I agree that this looks very promising.

 

[ArbitraryGuy]

NO!!!111 Let the bums apgrade their pc's, not u downgrade your mod! I want as realistic as possible and as many civs as possible

*edit* Where's Sweden and Denmark in map ? No cities, settlers only ? That sucks and i doubt they had no cities in those times...

Denmark and Sweden are there, it's just that their colors are similar to the terrain colors. Hence, why Sweden looks wierd. See below for my replacement ideas, and lemme know what you think.

You mentioned the prospect of removing Sweden/Portugal/Scotland. Personaly, I would say Sweden and Scotland has to be there to balance the gameplay.

They would be replaced with "minor" nations represented by barbarian cities that can only build defensive units. They will also get events giving them offensive units to attack their neighbors at the times of real wars and uprisings, so they'll be contained.

Here's my current thought: replacing Sweden with Pagan Baltic Peoples to give challenge to the Northen Crusades. Replace Scotland with the Mongols, so when they spawn they'll be a major power, rather than just barbs. Lemme know what you all think.

And I very much like the upgrade system too. Have you considered releasing certain Combat Upgrades upon discovery of certain Techs to add to the flavor?

Yes, certain upgrades will only be available with certain techs along the the lines of what you mentioned. E.g., arrow Barrange for Archers with Ballistics, Frontal Charge for Knights with Tactics, etc.

I am looking forward to have a check of the map...
On the small map I see in the first post, Sweden looks kind of strange

I made a new map for this, so I will need you to check it out soon. Thanks for the help

Also, don't worry... Hungary will be bigger. They controlled present-day Croatia then, no?

Some remarks on Kievan Rus. Only 3 cities? It was one of the largest "countries" of Middle Ages before Mongol Invasion. Vikings called it "Gardarika" (spell?) - the land of cities. I can provide you with city names and placements, if you are interested.

There are other cities in Russia, controlled by minor states - the Kievan Rus weren't the only ones veing for Russia at the time. They can't be too big for balance.

I'm somewhat concerned about the hugeness of the HRE

Yeah, a lot of those cities will become minor states. HRE will also start with a weak government.

 

[Kenric af Grashen]

can't wait for this and i agree with Crash757 don't drop civs that would make play more fun

 

[Stalin_Bulldog]

The map looks great, but isn't the Alhomad Calphate a little on the light side, i always learned that they controled from moroco to Carthage, but on the map they seem pretty sparse, also are mongols going to make the cut? they were a huge power during the early-mid middle ages, btw looks sweet keep up the good work

 

[The Great Apple]

Looks good. That "Recruitmen Up" splash screen somehow reminds me of those good olde medieval TBS games - MTW, Castles 2, Knight's of the Realm...

 

[ArbitraryGuy]

Looks good. That "Recruitmen Up" splash screen somehow reminds me of those good olde medieval TBS games - MTW, Castles 2, Knight's of the Realm...

There's a strong influence in this from those types of games, esp. from Crusader Kings.

The map looks great, but isn't the Alhomad Calphate a little on the light side, i always learned that they controled from moroco to Carthage, but on the map they seem pretty sparse, also are mongols going to make the cut? they were a huge power during the early-mid middle ages, btw looks sweet keep up the good work

That's not the final map, so don't worry. I'm going to cut one of the smaller civs and put the Mongols in instead.

can't wait for this and i agree with Crash757 don't drop civs that would make play more fun

I'm not dropping them, I'm replacing them with more meaningful civs.

 

[Grohan]

Here's my current thought: replacing Sweden with Pagan Baltic Peoples to give challenge to the Northen Crusades. Replace Scotland with the Mongols, so when they spawn they'll be a major power, rather than just barbs. Lemme know what you all think.

IMO you should keep both Sweden and Scotland to limit expansion of Denmark and England. Sweden also participated on Northern crusades (they made crusades ie. to Finland).
My suggestion is that you replace Portugal with Lithuania (and have other Baltic pagans as barbarians). They were major power during middle ages (at height of Lithunia, their empire stretched from Baltic sea to Black Sea) and many crusades were made against them. They could also provide some competion agains Kievan Rus.

 

[IamSid]

Wowww!!! This looks really awesome. Great job!

 

[Kidinnu]

I don't see much crossover between branches on your tech tree; this makes it rather susceptible to people rushing deep, which can be unbalancing. It's a smaller tree than Vanilla, so that may not be a problem, but it's worth thinking about carefully - I usually find it to be more of a problem on small trees, because the perceived opportunity cost is smaller. On the Reconquista tree it's really easy to go deep first and wide later, and gives some really strong advantages if you do it militarily.