Prince Monty advice needed

[spoooq]

Hello all, first post here but Ive been reading and trying to understand various strategies for a while. Ive reached the point where I need to move past just reading and start to play some serious higher-level (for me) games all the way through. So Ive begun a standard Classic game on Prince level as Monty, and would like as much advice as possible, especially where accompanied by explanations of thought processes I did play a test run through this morning on the train, so I do have more idea of the map than the starting position would indicate. I will try to post a screenshot in a day or two - for now, you'll just have to take my word for it that Im on the very end of a long narrow isthmus. I settled in place (2F1P1C) and saved the game.

The Fat Cross contains the following (all land is plains)...
1 normal
1 Wine
1 Cow
1 Wheat
4 Forests
1 Freshwater lake
6 Coast (2 of which have Clams)
5 Ocean (1 of which has a Whale)

With all the nearby health and food, the capital should be able to grow very large very fast. Happiness will need some support from buildings before health does.

TECH
-----
I want to secure Buddhism (as opposed to Hinduism) for the monastery. Fishing would allow 2 workboats, so the capital would be growing potential slaves without having to wait for a worker. After Fishing, Mining->Bronze Working to take advantage of that. Ive seen some explanations on the forums about how building a worker is better than a boat, but does that still hold when there are two clams? After size 2, the land doesnt actually look that useful without serious improvements. Getting Sailing for the lighthouse would bump the sea up even further in terms of food.

Current plan:
Meditation
Fishing
Mining
Bronze Working
Pottery
Sailing

PRODUCTION
------------
While waiting for Buddhism and Fishing, building a barracks seems the best use of time.

I was excited to see that the UU Jaguar didnt need iron to be built, but looking closer, Im not sure its even worth it, being weaker than a Swordsman. Is a Jag rush feasible from here? Its a long walk to the next civ's capital (I cant really make myself forget these things, and I would rather stick with this start as it seems to have learning potential).

Temple and library will come in the next phase of the citys life, which should be specialisation into commerce. By then, a real production city should have been started.

Current plan:
Barracks
Workboat
Workboat
Warrior(s)
Granary
Settler

WONDERS
---------
As a recovering Wonder-addict, Im trying to build Wonders when I see a need they can fill, rather than just collecting them randomly. None of the early Wonders apart from Great Library or Great Lighthouse really seem to fit the start.

Current plan:
Avoid


Now that you can see my position and ideas, Im sure you all have many clever ways of improving on what Im trying to do.

 

[cabert]

you won't get buddhism, IMHO.
What commerce tiles do you have?
just the whine, if i read well (you can't work the water tiles!)
Forget religion for a while, go for military.
You can start building stonehenge while teching towards fishing (3 specials!), then mining and BW.
Agri is just as good as fishing, since it helps HA, but you need workers to farm+there are more land barbarians than sea barbs.

 

[spoooq]

you won't get buddhism, IMHO.
What commerce tiles do you have?
just the whine, if i read well (you can't work the water tiles!)
Forget religion for a while, go for military.
You can start building stonehenge while teching towards fishing (3 specials!), then mining and BW.
Agri is just as good as fishing, since it helps HA, but you need workers to farm+there are more land barbarians than sea barbs.

Hi cabert, thanks for your comments.

I can definitely get Polytheism, is Meditation impossible without a couple of coins (which as you said, cant come from the water just yet) ? Im only on Prince level, so maybe I can get away with it.

Why is Stonehenge a good idea? Just for the GPP? If I get it, does that mean I can pick up a later religion safely using a Prophet to lightbulb?

Fishing will pick up the clams, but not the Whale - it needs Optics. I guess you mean I can work that tile though, but it doesnt seem to be a killer until I can put a boat there (2F1C).

What is HA? Health?

 

[cabert]

Hi cabert, thanks for your comments.

I can definitely get Polytheism, is Meditation impossible without a couple of coins (which as you said, cant come from the water just yet) ? Im only on Prince level, so maybe I can get away with it.

Why is Stonehenge a good idea? Just for the GPP? If I get it, does that mean I can pick up a later religion safely using a Prophet to lightbulb?

Fishing will pick up the clams, but not the Whale - it needs Optics. I guess you mean I can work that tile though, but it doesnt seem to be a killer until I can put a boat there (2F1C).

What is HA? Health?

HA is oups from me. I meant AH = animal husbandry.
Agriculture is a prereq for AH, so by researching agriculture, you help researching AH too. Since you'll need both techs, it's a good guess.

Are you sure you can get hinduism? just from the 8 commerce from the palace +1/2 from other tiles?
It's not a sure thing IMHO, but on Prince you may get it.
You don't need to found the religion though.
Why don't you just wait for a neighbour to found a religion and build the shrine for you?

Why you could need stonehenge? Because you're not creative, and because it's so cheap+GPP could be useful.
It's not required though.
If you want to avoid building wonders, just start with a warrior and go worker hunting

 

[spoooq]

HA is oups from me. I meant AH = animal husbandry.
Agriculture is a prereq for AH, so by researching agriculture, you help researching AH too. Since you'll need both techs, it's a good guess.

I do have another prereq in Hunting, but remember seeing something about having more prereqs speeding up research. As I need both eventually, then doing Agriculture first would make a lot of sense.

Are you sure you can get hinduism? just from the 8 commerce from the palace +1/2 from other tiles?
It's not a sure thing IMHO, but on Prince you may get it.
You don't need to found the religion though.
Why don't you just wait for a neighbour to found a religion and build the shrine for you?

I was Hindu in my test game this morning. I want to found the religion so I get easy culture in my cities by converting and spreading it, avoiding Stonehenge/obelisks. Stealing a religion is probably cheaper, like you said, but its also riskier. I wont have many neighbours because of the shape of the land, and it will take ages to get to them. I will try it and see what happens.

Why you could need stonehenge? Because you're not creative, and because it's so cheap+GPP could be useful.
It's not required though.
If you want to avoid building wonders, just start with a warrior and go worker hunting

GPP would be the main reason, but I figured I could get that by building a temple and then running a priest specialist. I happen to know stone is very close as well... my scout will spot it in a couple of turns.

I like the sound of the worker hunting - it sounds like getting the best of both worlds w.r.t. the sea and land.

 

[cabert]

I do have another prereq in Hunting, but remember seeing something about having more prereqs speeding up research. As I need both eventually, then doing Agriculture first would make a lot of sense.

that's exactly the point

I was Hindu in my test game this morning. I want to found the religion so I get easy culture in my cities by converting and spreading it, avoiding Stonehenge/obelisks. Stealing a religion is probably cheaper, like you said, but its also riskier. I wont have many neighbours because of the shape of the land, and it will take ages to get to them. I will try it and see what happens.

Your capital will have enough culture anyway, so if you want to go for a religion, wait until you have a second city, so the religion will have this second city as holy city.
It's important to have a religion if you go for cultural. If not, you can use the CS slingshot if you go the religious route.
I'm rather used to BW first strats, but it's ok to go religious. Just one thing : don't build workers if you don't research worker techs.

GPP would be the main reason, but I figured I could get that by building a temple and then running a priest specialist. I happen to know stone is very close as well... my scout will spot it in a couple of turns.

If it's for GPP, just leave it. My advice was thinking of domination like game = free culture in captured cities without religion.

I like the sound of the worker hunting - it sounds like getting the best of both worlds w.r.t. the sea and land.

yep. If you build a warrior while researching fishing, you can go on worker hunt while researching agri/AH/mining/BW and building boats.

 

[spoooq]

Your capital will have enough culture anyway, so if you want to go for a religion, wait until you have a second city, so the religion will have this second city as holy city.
It's important to have a religion if you go for cultural. If not, you can use the CS slingshot if you go the religious route.
I'm rather used to BW first strats, but it's ok to go religious. Just one thing : don't build workers if you don't research worker techs.

Ive done the worker-before-tech thing before, its very frustrating and theres noone else to blame - not even the RNG!

If it's for GPP, just leave it. My advice was thinking of domination like game = free culture in captured cities without religion.

Part of the problem is that Im not really sure what kind of victory I want. Conquest might be best, so no Stonehenge in that case.

 

[spoooq]

Can you (or anyone else) give specifics on how to handle the terrain in my capital long-term? The plains tiles seem kind of useless.

 

[cabert]

Can you (or anyone else) give specifics on how to handle the terrain in my capital long-term? The plains tiles seem kind of useless.

plains are good, since you have plenty food ressources around.
Cottage those plains, and you can manage your growth at your own pace = working cottages with food deficit when you're at happiness cap/ working all food when happy enough / growing in preparation for pop rushing.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

So Ive begun a standard Classic game on Prince level as Monty, and would like as much advice as possible, especially where accompanied by explanations of thought processes

OK, my standard opening analysis for Monty. You are aggressive, so you want to be busting heads, especially with melee units. You are spiritual, so you want to be able to collect civics - religions mean temples will cover your cheap happy needs, if you are willing to stop building units occassionally. You start with Mysticism, so can score one of the two if you want, and you start with Hunting, which in the opening means scouts, and quick access to Archery.

Your big synergy tech is Theology (its a religion, a civic, extra xp for your units, AND a dessert topping), which means your climb along the religious techs goes up through Polytheism and Monotheism.

I want to secure Buddhism (as opposed to Hinduism) for the monastery.

Hmm, I disagree with this - you aren't going to build the monastery any time soon, you don't need missionaries for a while yet, and you have more urgent ways to invest hammers than 10% research. Besides, Monotheism is on the way to your synergy tech, so you can do your spamming while in Org Rel.

Fishing would allow 2 workboats, so the capital would be growing potential slaves without having to wait for a worker. After Fishing, Mining->Bronze Working to take advantage of that. Ive seen some explanations on the forums about how building a worker is better than a boat, but does that still hold when there are two clams? After size 2, the land doesnt actually look that useful without serious improvements. Getting Sailing for the lighthouse would bump the sea up even further in terms of food.

Hmm. You don't need sailing for a while - are you going to be using the water tiles besides the clams?

Current plan:
Meditation
Fishing
Mining
Bronze Working
Pottery
Sailing

PRODUCTION
------------
While waiting for Buddhism and Fishing, building a barracks seems the best use of time.

OK, here's my rule: if you are building a barracks because you don't have anything better to build, something has gone dreadfully wrong.

If you start with Hunting, and don't leverage early scouts, you are basically starting with one foot in the bucket, because hunting isn't doing you any good short term.

If you decide to go the sea route, I would start with a scout, and time it to coincide with the discovery of fishing. Now you can get a couple boats in the water. That takes care of your city builds (you might slip a unit between the boats). So if the city is committed to boats and coastal commerce, you don't need the worker techs, so run up to Bronze and figure out where you are going to send the settler.

If you are going land based, you need a worker. I think you need enough techs to keep him busy that you can afford to toss in a scout first. You want a few sizes before you chop settlers, I think, and you'd like to get a granary going. This city doesn't look like its going to be putting out much military, so I'd want to hold off on the barracks.

Warriors upgrade usefully, and can bust fog, so you won't be too unhappy with that as a consolation prize.

WONDERS

Current plan:
Avoid

Hello? You're agressive. The plan is to capture wonders.... You are spiritual, so the Pyramids are kind of important to you, and since Masonry is on your tech line anyway, it would be a nice catch.

If you haven't already, you might look into ALC 1 & Montezuma's Shadow

 

[spoooq]

My new and improved plan:

1. Have an early home-grown religion and spread it
2. Steal workers
3. Start a second city which will do the real work of building an army
4. Head towards war-like civics
5. Turn the capital into a commerce farm

Assumptions:

• At least one, and preferably two, workers will be stolen. It will take 30-40 turns to get the first worker back to the capital.
• I can easily hold off any immediate counter-attack with just two warriors.
• Genghis and Cyrus are the only other civs on the continent, with Genghis being closer and the obvious first target due to positioning, if nothing else.
• If I dont get an early religion, I may miss out completely due to concentrating on war.
• Neither neighbour is likely to start their own religion.
• I already know the land and where the huts are.

(1) means starting with Polytheism. So lets put that first in the research queue. Trade routes encourage spreading of religion, so roads are vital.

RESEARCH: Polytheism, Wheel

(2) means at least two warriors must be built - one for offence, one for defence. War will be declared, the worker stolen, and then no offence undertaken until metal units are available in numbers.

BUILD: Warrior, Warrior

(3) means a settler is needed very early if the second city is to be competitive. Real armies need Bronze Working, but at very low priority as the second city is a long way off. Spreading the state religion will be enough to grow its culture once.

RESEARCH: Polytheism, Wheel, Mining, Bronze Working
BUILD: Warrior, Warrior, Settler

(4) means Theology and Pyramids. That means that Masonry and Monotheism->Theology must be researched. The Pyramids are the only interesting race now that we are Hindu, so they need to go first. Theres a possible gap between the Settler and the Pyramids, while Masonry is researching. More Warriors could be built. The stone to the south will help once it can be connected.

RESEARCH: Polytheism, Wheel, Mining, Masonry, Bronze Working, Monotheism, Theology
BUILD: Warrior, Warrior, Settler, Warriors, Pyramids

Animal Handling will provide useful hammers from the cow for finishing off such a huge task, but its not vital.

RESEARCH: Polytheism, Wheel, Mining, Masonry, Bronze Working, Animal Handling, Monotheism, Theology
BUILD: Warrior, Warrior, Settler, Warriors, Pyramids

Bronze Working may help get the settler out via whipping, especially if the stolen worker isnt home early enough that Wheel is usable so early.

RESEARCH: Polytheism, Mining, Bronze Working, Wheel, Masonry, Animal Handling, Monotheism, Theology
BUILD: Warrior, Warrior, Settler, Warriors, Pyramids

(5) means towns and granaries. Lowest priority, because hammers will be used until the Pyramids are finished.

FINAL RESEARCH: Polytheism, Mining, Bronze Working, Wheel, Masonry, Animal Handling, Monotheism, Theology, Pottery
FINAL BUILD: Warrior, Warrior, Settler, Warriors, Pyramids

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

My new and improved plan

Better. A few comments....

I'm not to fond of stealing workers. It's effective, but mostly because the AI has no defence against it - this is basically a big blind spot. You have to decide for yourself whether you want to play deliberately to the game's weaknesses.

FINAL RESEARCH: Polytheism, Mining, Bronze Working, Wheel, Masonry, Animal Handling, Monotheism, Theology, Pottery
FINAL BUILD: Warrior, Warrior, Settler, Warriors, Pyramids

It looks to me as though you are gathering a bunch of worker techs before you can effectively use them. How many of those techs are you going to knock off before the worker gets back to your fat cross? During that time, your city doesn't have any terribly exciting builds.

You've also missed a pre-requisite for Pottery, since you have neither Agriculture nor Fishing in your list. And Agriculture speeds up Animal Loving. And you have wheat.

You also missed Writing, which is a pre-requisite for Theology.

Given the amount of food you have, Theology is probably better popped than it is researched; instead of 500 beakers for theology, you can grab Priesthood (60), Meditation (80), build a temple, run a specialist, and lightbulb Theology. Or you could make a run at Stone Henge, and get the prophet you need from the Wonder.

Also, you are lining up an awful lot of beakers without any commerce in your cities (no fishing, no pottery). So unless your copper is next to a gold mine, you've got a problem, I think.

 

[babypacman]

what exactly is meant by the stealing workers strategy? Wouldn't that necessitate going to war with the AI to do the stealing? I'm not sure how having to build up a larger military to deal with potentially angry AIs and negative diplomatic modifiers is offset by free 'stolen' workers?

Or am I missing something entirely here?

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

what exactly is meant by the stealing workers strategy? Wouldn't that necessitate going to war with the AI to do the stealing? I'm not sure how having to build up a larger military to deal with potentially angry AIs and negative diplomatic modifiers is offset by free 'stolen' workers?

Or am I missing something entirely here?

Stealing workers is exactly what you think. The basic math is that you end up two net workers (+1 for you, -1 for him), and can start developing your city without ever stunting your growth. The AI simply isn't clever enough to counter this effectively. It's a faster strategy on higher levels, where the AI starts with a bonus worker.

 

[spoooq]

Better. A few comments....

I'm not to fond of stealing workers. It's effective, but mostly because the AI has no defence against it - this is basically a big blind spot. You have to decide for yourself whether you want to play deliberately to the game's weaknesses.

Now that Ive tried it, I think you might be right... its like taking candy from a baby. If it was a higher level, I might not feel so bad... but Prince is low enough that I do.

It looks to me as though you are gathering a bunch of worker techs before you can effectively use them. How many of those techs are you going to knock off before the worker gets back to your fat cross? During that time, your city doesn't have any terribly exciting builds.

Does a granary count as exciting? Iron Working was definitely too late, because Jags are exciting!

You've also missed a pre-requisite for Pottery, since you have neither Agriculture nor Fishing in your list. And Agriculture speeds up Animal Loving. And you have wheat.

You also missed Writing, which is a pre-requisite for Theology.

Did I forget to mention that I got Agriculture from a goody hut? Sorry. Youre correct about the Writing though, found that out the hard way. A lot of my plans end up like that

Given the amount of food you have, Theology is probably better popped than it is researched; instead of 500 beakers for theology, you can grab Priesthood (60), Meditation (80), build a temple, run a specialist, and lightbulb Theology. Or you could make a run at Stone Henge, and get the prophet you need from the Wonder.

Interesting ideas... I didnt realise there was such a jump in beaker cost. I did play one run through with Stonehenge and lots of priests, but was annoyed at all the Prophets I was getting in the end. I might try using the temple method first, that way I can turn them off when I want.

Also, you are lining up an awful lot of beakers without any commerce in your cities (no fishing, no pottery). So unless your copper is next to a gold mine, you've got a problem, I think.

The nearest gold is on the far side of Genghis...

 

[spoooq]

As a note to myself, Im posting the costs of the techs and production discussed in this list. Others may find it useful as well. The costs are adjusted for Prince/Normal/Standard.

Spoiler :

TECHS

Animal Handling 143
Bronze Working  171
Fishing          57
Iron Working    286
Masonry         114
Mining           71
Monotheism      171
Polytheism      143
Priesthood       85
Wheel            85
Theology        715
Writing         171

PRODUCTION

Settler         100*
Worker           60*
Workboat         30
Warrior          15
Jaguar           35

 

[spoooq]

Applying these costs to the research queue gives the following totals. Note that I am -not- yet adjusting for having prerequisites, because I havent finalised the order (thats the whole point of doing this).

[B]Result             Beakers       Total beakers[/B]
Polytheism         143             143
Mining              71             214
Bronze Working     171             385
Wheel               85             470
Masonry            114             584
Animal Handling    143             727
Monotheism         171             898
Writing            171            1069
Theology           715            1785

Theology stands out as the truly expensive tech. Prophets lightbulb techs in the following order:

1. Meditation
2. Polytheism
3. Priesthood
4. Monotheism
5. Theology

Polytheism and Monotheism we have. Meditation and Priesthood would have to be researched to avoid wasting the Prophet on them. If using a temple to run a priest, it will take 33 turns from the end of building the temple, assuming enough food. Using Stonehenge alone would take 50 turns, but that wonder can be built from the very beginning in the city.

[B]Result             Beakers       Total beakers[/B]
Polytheism         143             143
Mining              71             214
Bronze Working     171             385
Wheel               85             470
Masonry            114             584
Animal Handling    143             727
Monotheism         171             898
Priesthood          85             983
Meditation         114            1097
Writing            171            1268

Much faster in total, but we still have to get the Prophet in a reasonable amount of time. Looking at the list again, AH and Wheel should be finished as the first worker is. Wheel can be used to road towards the front-line for an effectively infinite number of turns, so the worker can be useful without AH indefinitely. AH would be more immediately useful for the hammers, but the timing would be tighter to get Wheel out before the cow is put to pasture and the wheat farmed. Chopping a Settler would be a good way to pass the time. Masonry can be dropped lower without too much worry, although not lower than Monotheism, of course. Meditation before Priesthood would reduce its cost slightly, although its so cheap as to hardly matter, and getting the priest generating GPP is almost certainly more important. I keep coming back to Fishing, because as a cheap tech it would give my city around 20 turns of production work to build two very useful workboats. A quick sketch of an alternative route - Poly, AH, Mining, BW, Wheel, Masonry, Mono, Priest, Meditation, Writing .... Iron Working.

 

[spoooq]

To match the research, the production queue could be
Worker, Warrior, chopped Settler, Warrior, Temple

If Fishing can be put into the queue, then
Worker, Warrior, chopped Settler, Workboat, Workboat, Temple
becomes possible for around 135 hammers, counting the Worker and Settler as half-food/half-hammers, and allowing two chops to contribute 20 hammers each to the Settler.

I will play these choices through asap to get a feel for their viability, and post the results. Warriors can be prepended to the queue if the Worker is too early, and inserted between the Worker and Settler also. Getting the second city founded before Monotheism means I can switch religions in order to expand its borders. Its first build should be a Barracks.

 

[Lord Kid]

Generally when I play I usually beeline to BW, then build any worker techs that are immediately applicable, while producing Warrior, Warrior, Settler, Worker, Warrior, Warrior, Settler in my capital and a worker immediately in the new cities.

 

[spoooq]

Generally when I play I usually beeline to BW, then build any worker techs that are immediately applicable, while producing Warrior, Warrior, Settler, Worker, Warrior, Warrior, Settler in my capital and a worker immediately in the new cities.

Have you considered that while a Worker can do many things to speed up the first Settler (chopping, various improvements), that Settler cant speed up the Worker at all?