Prison sentences in Europe too light for murderers?

[Xanikk999]

I just read a story about how someone in France who committed a cold-blooded premeditated murder was sentenced for only 16 years.

The story is old but this is just the background for the discussion.

http://www.jpost.com/International/Article.aspx?ID=199954&R=R1

PARIS — A French appeals court on Friday upheld the convictions of 16 people for their roles in the 2006 kidnapping, torture and murder of a young French Jew, handing down sentences of up to 18 years in prison.

I feel that prison sentences for pre-meditated murder is incredibly light in many European countries.

Manslaughter and second degree murder is one thing, especially if you are provoked and its on the moment. However any sane person living in a modern western society should learn that murder is almost never acceptable. If you are willing to kidnap, torture, and murder someone for any reason you are probably not right of the mind and more than likely rehabilitation will be a failure.

I am quite alright with lesser punishments and parole for lesser crimes and for people that can be rehabilitated because of circumstances surrounding the crime. I am also against the death penalty because it can kill innocent people.

I am however not ok with allowing convicted killers back onto the streets when it is not clear that they would never commit another atrocity such as in this story.

Is sentencing like this the norm in Europe? I read various articles and found anywhere from 1 year in one case to life in prison. The average seems to be about 20 years.

What do you think of this? Does this system actually work in fixing people or is it an unacceptable risk to law abiding citizens? Discuss.

 

[JollyRoger]

The ringleader, Youssouf Fofana, was not on trial in the proceedings that began Oct. 25. He chose not to appeal his conviction and life sentence.

Two of his close associates, Jean-Christophe Soumbou and Samir Ait Abdel Malek, were sentenced to 18 years behind bars in the verdict Friday. A state prosecutor had sought 20 years for each. Malek had previously been sentenced to 15 years; Soumbous' penalty was unchanged.

The appeals proceedings took place behind closed doors because two of the defendants were minors at the time. Minors are not publicly identified when tried in court under French law.

A nine-year sentence was upheld against the young woman who had taken part in luring Halimi into the gang's custody. She was once of the two minors when the crimes occurred.

Six people who took part in kidnapping Halimi received sentences of 12 to 15 years. Seven others received sentences ranging from eight months to 11 years in prison, which was given to one woman who recruited others to act as bait for kidnappings. An apartment building guard who made available the room where Halimi was held got 10 years.

One of the 17 defendants on trial was acquitted.



Halimi, 23, was held captive for over three weeks. He was found naked, handcuffed and covered with burn marks near railroad tracks south of Paris on Feb. 13, 2006. He died on the way to the hospital.

It seems you are being a bit misleading by trying to tie them all to murder. One guy got a life sentence. Some were convicted of the kidnapping which was not concurrent with the mirder.

 

[NickyJ]

Way too light there and in the U.S. Death sentences deserved for them all, in my book.

 

[Xanikk999]

It seems you are being a bit misleading by trying to tie them all to murder. One guy got a life sentence. Some were convicted of the kidnapping which was not concurrent with the mirder.

I guess I didn't read the article too much. Nevertheless there are numberless cases of murderers getting very light punishments, way more than in the U.S.

This could be observational bias but I have a hunch its not. Any european posters want to comment?

 

[civver_764]

16 years is more than enough if handled correctly.

 

[JollyRoger]

I guess I didn't read the article too much. Nevertheless there are numberless cases of murderers getting very light punishments, way more than in the U.S.

Murderers in the U.S can get off fairly lightly too. If you claim Jesus inspired you, you are likely a candidate to get the loony bin. If you kill while drunk driving, you can get a small sentence. If you wear a badge, you likely survive conviction. If you shoot someone in the back that is anywhere near your property, you are lauded a hero.

 

[Xanikk999]

16 years is more than enough if handled correctly.

What happens if when the person is released and he commits another murder? This does happen.

This should be considered when sentencing someone. I would rather one insane murderer live behind bars then be allowed to roam freely and commit more violent crimes. Its a lesser injustice in my eyes.

Murderers in the U.S can get off fairly lightly too. If you claim Jesus inspired you, you are likely a candidate to get the loony bin. If you kill while drunk driving, you can get a small sentence. If you wear a badge, you likely survive conviction. If you shoot someone in the back that is anywhere near your property, you are lauded a hero.

Well I will trust what you say since you are a lawyer.

I think the issue here is that real murderers are given lighter sentences in Europe then real murderers here.

What I mean by "real murderer" is someone who commits a premeditated murder, not one in the heat of the moment or unintentionally.

 

[civver_764]

What happens if when the person is released and he commits another murder? This does happen.

This should be considered when sentencing someone. I would rather one insane murderer live behind bars then be allowed to roam freely and commit more violent crimes. Its a lesser injustice in my eyes.

You don't sentence someone based on what they might do.

Countries with the most focus on rehabilitation and the lowest "penalties" tend to have the lowest murder rates. If we're concerned about safety, then that's the way to go.

 

[GhostWriter16]

Way too light there and in the U.S. Death sentences deserved for them all, in my book.

I tend to agree, but remember there are exceptions to everything. So I no longer would claim that every single case, no matter what, should lead to death. But I tend to think that.

For instance, (To give an example) what if the person was mentally challenged and was unable to understand murder was wrong? What if the other man seriously provoked him? (Let's assume the provocation is valid.) Should he instantly get death?

First-degree murder, when there's no reasonable doubt of the evidence, yes.

16 years is more than enough if handled correctly.

This seriously undermines the value of human life.

You don't sentence someone based on what they might do.

Countries with the most focus on rehabilitation and the lowest "penalties" tend to have the lowest murder rates. If we're concerned about safety, then that's the way to go.

I think its more likely that less killings are based on other factors, not low sentencing. Do you REALLY think a murderer is going to think "Gosh, that sentence for murder is really light, guess I won't do it?"

 

[ParadigmShifter]

I can only speak for the UK. We don't have degrees of murder here - it's either manslaughter or murder.

Murder carries a mandatory life sentence - which can be as little as 8 years before parole can be considered. Now we have judges specifying minimum sentences (which can be much longer), this was to take it out of the hands of the Home Secretary and used as a political football.

We have some murderers on whole life tariffs (Peter Sutcliffe the Yorkshire Ripper just lost his appeal against a whole life tariff).

Sometimes murderers can become productive members of society though...

But he was convicted in Germany.

 

[Xanikk999]

You don't sentence someone based on what they might do.

Countries with the most focus on rehabilitation and the lowest "penalties" tend to have the lowest murder rates. If we're concerned about safety, then that's the way to go.

Have you ever considered why they have the lowest murder rates?

It would be foolish to assume without any evidence that it has anything to do with their judicial system. There are so many factors that could be involved.

 

[Thoughtful Thug]

I wonder what is the recidivism rate for people who have been charged for murder and then released in France and other European countries?

 

[Shekwan]

I feel that prison sentences for pre-meditated murder is incredibly light in many European countries.

You only mentioned France. Got any other examples?

 

[GhostWriter16]

I do know Norway's max sentence is like 19 years.

Now, I know some European countries aren't as bad as others though. But any who have abolished Capital Punishment are too soft on crime, and easily so.

 

[Arakhor]

Way too light there and in the U.S. Death sentences deserved for them all, in my book.

Apart from the fact that "Europe" consists of some 20+ countries and "there" is a completely pointless statement, it's nice to know that you would execute kidnappers too. You sound like a barrel of laughs.

And "any who have abolished capital punishment"? You mean every single last one?

 

[bhsup]

IF they're not getting the death penalty for murder and rape (Hello, Roman Polanski, I see you!) and some other crimes, then yeah the sentences are too light.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

So not a fan of The Piano and early Eastenders then?

 

[Xanikk999]

Apart from the fact that "Europe" consists of some 20+ countries and "there" is a completely pointless statement, it's nice to know that you would execute kidnappers too. You sound like a barrel of laughs.

And "any who have abolished capital punishment"? You mean every single last one?

I am pretty sure it is still legal in Belarus and Russia.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Which is why they aren't allowed into the EU.

 

[Arakhor]

There's always one, isn't there?