Private vs Public Polls

[DaveShack]

Why is it unacceptable that the choice be left to the whim of the poller?

For the same reason that it's unacceptable (to others) that the choice be left to the whim of the Censor. Some past Censors have misused validation to stop polls they don't agree with. Some pollsters have misused polling to try to circumvent the law (and tried to use the private nature of the poll to allow the citizens to vote yes without fear of being identified as approving circumventing the law). Neither should be allowed.

My procedures, which donsig promises to challenge legally (how I'm not sure) allow the citizens to overrule the Censor on disallowing a private poll, and the Censor to overrule a pollster who misuses a private poll.

 

[Nobody]

My procedures, which donsig promises to challenge legally (how I'm not sure) allow the citizens to overrule the Censor on disallowing a private poll, and the Censor to overrule a pollster who misuses a private poll.

Hopefully he will cc you, i could do with a case to argue.

 

[Eklektikos]

Some pollsters have misused polling to try to circumvent the law (and tried to use the private nature of the poll to allow the citizens to vote yes without fear of being identified as approving circumventing the law).

Surely the issue there is the attempt to circumvent the law, rather than the poll being private?

 

[Nobody]

circuvent the law issue is over now with the whole needing to register for the demogame group to vote in our polls.

 

[DaveShack]

Surely the issue there is the attempt to circumvent the law, rather than the poll being private?

That's actually the point I've made in the current term's procedures.

 

[ravensfire]

Folks - I'd like to take a quick moment here to make a quick comment here. I think there is a difference in the opinions that various citizens hold about two major issues. First, does the current law allow private initiative polls or not. Second, should we permit private binding polls.

Please, PLEASE, resolve these with a discussion and any needed amendments. Each of the major proponents on BOTH sides have stated time and again that the court should be the last option. Well, prove it. Start the discussion. Get the viewpoints out there. Run a couple of polls to answer the questions and get a well-crafted amendment and PUT THIS BEHIND US.

Thank you.

-- Ravensfire

 

[donsig]

Get the viewpoints out there. Run a couple of polls to answer the questions and get a well-crafted amendment and PUT THIS BEHIND US.

DaveShack ran an opinion poll and its outcome was half in favor of allowing private polls and half against. If that result is indeed indicative of our citizen's feelings then either way half are not going to get what they want. Unless you have a suggestion to allow us to all have our cake and eat it, too.

Why is it unacceptable that the choice be left to the whim of the poller?

For the same reason that it's unacceptable (to others) that the choice be left to the whim of the Censor. Some past Censors have misused validation to stop polls they don't agree with. Some pollsters have misused polling to try to circumvent the law (and tried to use the private nature of the poll to allow the citizens to vote yes without fear of being identified as approving circumventing the law). Neither should be allowed.

So, the question to be answered is which is more dangerous to our democracy: a Censor who is allowed to misuse his validation authority or a citizen who posts bad polls?

I think the former is the bigger threat. What recourse do we have against a recalcitrant censor? Not much. Three censors in a row have put up procedures banning private polls. Finally, we have a censor who has written procedures that admit private polls are not illegal under our laws, but still he reserves the right to invalidate private polls if they don't meet his criteria for appropriate use of a private poll. Where's the democracy in that?

Take now the problem of citizen's posting bad polls. What recourse is there? Any initiative is superceded by a later initiative so it's as simple as someone posting a revised poll that is better formatted. Elklektikos tried to point out that a private poll can be bad for reasons other than the fact that it's private and such polls can be invalidated on those grounds. I still have not seen a good reason to convince me that a private poll is bad just because it is private.

My intention is still to have a citizen's initiative poll about this and it will be a private poll. I had hoped to have it up earlier this week but RL got in the way. Since there has been further discussion I'll wait a few more days to see if it continues before posting my poll.

@DaveShack: The legal challenge to your procedures will depend on your actions as Censor. I'm going to post a private initiative poll. If you choose to invalidate (or ignore) it just because it is private then I will ask for a JR to determine if a) the Censor has authority over initiative polls and b) if private polls are constitutional. If you validate it then there will be no need to challenge your procedures.

 

[DaveShack]

@DaveShack: The legal challenge to your procedures will depend on your actions as Censor. I'm going to post a private initiative poll. If you choose to invalidate (or ignore) it just because it is private then I will ask for a JR to determine if a) the Censor has authority over initiative polls and b) if private polls are constitutional. If you validate it then there will be no need to challenge your procedures.

It depends on the subject of the poll. If the poll is about initiatives being private, it will be invalid on the grounds that it is trying to affect the law without being in the form of an amendment. A public initiative on the same subject would also be invalid. If you want to change the law, then you must follow the process to change the law. If you want the law interpreted, then you must follow the process to interpret the law.

 

[donsig]

It depends on the subject of the poll. If the poll is about initiatives being private, it will be invalid on the grounds that it is trying to affect the law without being in the form of an amendment. A public initiative on the same subject would also be invalid. If you want to change the law, then you must follow the process to change the law. If you want the law interpreted, then you must follow the process to interpret the law.

As I've said quite a few times already:

The law currently allows private initiative polls. Why in heaven's name would I go to the trouble of making an amendment to legalize something that is already legal? Just what would I be changing? As for affecting the law without being in the form of an amendment, doesn't the constitution say initiatives have the force of law? Isn't this a prime example of exactly what initiatives are for? Our laws are not very specific on the issue of private initiative polls. Isn't a citizens initiative on the subject more desireable than a ruling by the judiciary?

What process for interpreting the law does my proposal not follow? Are you suggesting I have to ask for a JR before I even post the poll?

What about this for the poll question:

Do our laws as currently written allow private initiative polls?

 

[DaveShack]

What about this for the poll question:

Do our laws as currently written allow private initiative polls?

The answer to that particular question may only be binding when it is asked as a JR, because it asks for the law to be interpreted, a subject in the exclusive domain of the judiciary. We have already had an opinion poll which was evenly split, and we already have procedures which do not automatically invalidate polls solely based on public vs. private.

Perhaps you can find an in-game subject with which to prove your point.

 

[ravensfire]

Good grief - there's a really simple way to handle this.

Start a discussion AND a poll. Bah - neither of you can be bothered to do it, and seem to prefer to wallow in this mess and NOT FIX IT.

Discussion and poll over a comprehensive revision of polling standards is started. I was hoping one of the two of you, being the major proponents of your views, would have started it, but the blatant hints were missed.

-- Ravensfire

 

[ravensfire]

Discussion thread on revision effort started

First poll has been posted

 

[donsig]

Good grief - there's a really simple way to handle this.

Start a discussion AND a poll. Bah - neither of you can be bothered to do it, and seem to prefer to wallow in this mess and NOT FIX IT.

Discussion and poll over a comprehensive revision of polling standards is started. I was hoping one of the two of you, being the major proponents of your views, would have started it, but the blatant hints were missed.

-- Ravensfire

Goodness grief I though this was a discussion thread. How could I be so stupid?

You still don't get the point here, do you? I don't want to revise the polling standards. They have nothing to do with whether private initiative polls are are legal or not. Why can't you simply let the discussion take it course here? All you've done now is side-track the discussion just like DaveShack did with his opinion poll. It would be more useful for you to post here what you think about the legality of private initiative polls.

 

[ravensfire]

It's simple donsig - you don't want to fix it.

You want to drag things out for as long as possible.

I want this to be answered once and for all, and for the Constitution and the CoL to reflect those answers. You've been dancing around this for several months. I hope to have a proposed law reflecting the input given in two weeks, tops.

-- Ravensfire

 

[Eklektikos]

Goodness grief I though this was a discussion thread. How could I be so stupid?

You still don't get the point here, do you? I don't want to revise the polling standards. They have nothing to do with whether private initiative polls are are legal or not.

Since the polling standards and their wording are the source from which all this furore arises I would have to say that they have everything to do with the legality of private initiatives.

Why can't you simply let the discussion take it course here? All you've done now is side-track the discussion just like DaveShack did with his opinion poll. It would be more useful for you to post here what you think about the legality of private initiative polls.

If this side-tracking deals with the problem at its source and in doing so renders the point of the other discussion moot then more power to it, I say.

 

[donsig]

The answer to that particular question may only be binding when it is asked as a JR, because it asks for the law to be interpreted, a subject in the exclusive domain of the judiciary. We have already had an opinion poll which was evenly split, and we already have procedures which do not automatically invalidate polls solely based on public vs. private.

Perhaps you can find an in-game subject with which to prove your point.

Since when is the interpretation of our laws the exclusive domain of the judiciary? Citizens are not allowed to interpret the laws? Doesn't the constitution say initiatives have the force of law? Isn't that one step up above the the judiciary?

The procedures in place may not automatically invalidate private polls but as it now stands it still seems up to the whim of the Censor to accept or reject a private poll. Before I can even figure out if the poll I want to post is acceptable to the Censor, the discussion gets diverted and I get yelled at some about trying to get this issue resolved. Doesn't really make me want to particiapte much guys. If we had a Censor who would just allow private polls since they are legal anyway then I wouldn't have to keep bringing the issue up, now would I?

As for trying to find an in game issue to use as a test poll I say NO. I got fed up with giving in game input when Chieftess totally disregarded everything we had discussed in the forums and just did her own trades in the chat. Until I'm sure I have adequate recourse against elected officials (like the ability to post private binding initiative polls) then I will not waste my time on in game stuff. Stop trying to illegally hinder private initiatives and I'll gladly participate in the in game stuff again.

Since the polling standards and their wording are the source from which all this furore arises I would have to say that they have everything to do with the legality of private initiatives.

If this side-tracking deals with the problem at its source and in doing so renders the point of the other discussion moot then more power to it, I say.

The polling standards are not the problem. The problem is two-fold: 1) we do not all agree on the legal definition of some key terms as they relate to polls (official, binding, initiative, referendum) and 2) we do not all agree on the evils and benefits of either public or private polls. The side tracking is not helping because the discussion was already taking place right here. The other thread doesn't render this one moot except in that it's a duplication of efforts.

 

[DaveShack]

The procedures in place may not automatically invalidate private polls but as it now stands it still seems up to the whim of the Censor to accept or reject a private poll. Before I can even figure out if the poll I want to post is acceptable to the Censor, the discussion gets diverted and I get yelled at some about trying to get this issue resolved. Doesn't really make me want to particiapte much guys. If we had a Censor who would just allow private polls since they are legal anyway then I wouldn't have to keep bringing the issue up, now would I?

Again the issue is not actually whether the poll you want to post is public or private, it's about whether the poll is legal at all. If you want to eliminate the bias in the law towards public polls, you must change the law, which must be done via either a JR on the interpretation, or an amendment. I'm merely following the law.

 

[DaveShack]

BTW, see the two polls on trading with Alex. The first, private, one would have been ruled valid except that our esteemed CJ decided to put on his jack boots and stomp through it first. Kinda funny behavior from someone who wants us all to bury the hatchet, no? I don't think that upsetting 10% of our active playing force is a terribly good idea.

 

[donsig]

Again the issue is not actually whether the poll you want to post is public or private, it's about whether the poll is legal at all. If you want to eliminate the bias in the law towards public polls, you must change the law, which must be done via either a JR on the interpretation, or an amendment. I'm merely following the law.

The bias is not in the law. It is in our Censors.