Problem with China's Great Wall in Civ VI

[NukeAJS]

I don't think it's meant to be spammed. You're assuming that people would want to spam it. That would be aesthetically silly and so unrealistic that it becomes ridiculous (And I'm of the "Fun is almost infinitely more important than realism" crowd).

My main concern is that it will be useless. Sure, it has a defensive bonus, but it might have the same logic of building walls in a city or a unit in Civ5. Units are almost always the better choice. The only time I build walls in a city is when I already have enough units, see a big army coming my way, and don't have anything else for that city to build. So, since the wall is constructed with builders, the choice is now -- should I have the (limited charge builder) make a wall or something else? From a more military stand-point, if I already have 3-4 warriors on barb-swatting duty, why build the great wall?

It's impossible to say so far, but I fear the great wall might be a very situational improvement much like fortresses are in Civ5.

 

[plasmacannon]

I brought this up in another post 2 days ago. Post#25 in the "First Look Civ Videos: Disappointed" Thread.
So, to some of us, it is a concern to lose several tiles to a Wall, that we might prefer to use as city tiles.
I guess we are expected to pillage the wall later when we want more city tiles.

I like the fact that wonders are so large that they take up space outside of the city.
I'm not sure about taking up an entire tile though.
If I play as China and build the Great Wall and it is 20 tiles long, that means that I have 20 fewer tiles to use near me than every other civ has.
If I could still build a farm, cottage or have some other use out of part of that tile, then that would make sense.
In China, The Great Wall was build over hills and mountains.
AFAIK, we won't be able to move ground units over mountains, so the Wall won't be built there or need to be, but can it be built to connect mountains to other mountains several times?
Sort of a ---MM---M--MM----MMM---M-----MM---- type of chain?
Where the "-" are the Wall and the "M" are the Mountains.
Might have to wait and see on that one.

As far as the rest, to me, the graphics appear too simplistic for my taste. I own Civ Revolution for the PlayStation 3. I played it a dozen times or so and am not impressed with its lack of emersion. So why would I buy what appears to be it's sequel?
I've played Civ2-4 hundreds of times. Civ4 has been my favorite for years now.
I will continue to play Civ4 with mods.

BTW, In Civ Revolution I could stack 3 warriors into an army as soon as I built 3 warriors.
I heard in Civ6 this will be delayed until a later age to be able to stack a 2nd one, then later for a 3rd.

 

[Paramecium]

To be honest, at least I suspected that the great wall would get an adjacency bonus for neighboring parts or for the total length of one wall segment. But nothing special was said in the video.

And for defense, it could still be usefull, if all enemy units end their turn on the wall, so it would protect your lands from raiders at least. But that might give that unit the def bonus so its really hard to tell if it is good to build the wall when you cant afford that many units.

Maybe it is just a use for gold income early and later culture and tourism, but for defense, you must watch your neighbors and if you see him/her clumbing up some troops, you post your own army on it.

What still can be possible, maybe an enemy units needs TWO turns to climb the wall. We saw in the E3 video, that a settler needs TWO turns to move over a river and climb an hill. Why not with the great wall? That would make it really good and would give enough time to guard your wall tiles.

At least, it might still be possible, all depending on how the wall will work at launch and if firaxis sees that it is actually sh*t or underpowered, they can still patch it ...


Especially the adjacency bonus might be sth. Depending on how many walls must be connected to each other, It can give you a motivation to build a wall as long as possible and then you must play again with new, bigger star then ever, with the map!

 

[darko82]

My main concern is that it will be useless.

It will depend on your playstyle, I think. But it can help in defence, culture, tourism, gold, though. Many ways to make use of it, isn't it? I mean, it will be useful in some ways. It might be less useful in war just as in culture if this is not what you are aiming for in your game. Time will tell. We just saw a glimpse of it and some people seem to be overeacting a bit

 

[GeoModder]

But that requires you to spend your production on an army instead of the wonders, hence my general issue.

Erm, early wonders can be rushed with builders by China?

 

[boghog]

I guess we are expected to pillage the wall later when we want more city tiles.

Even before the Cultural Revolution and Red Guards, Mao also actively encouraged farmers to use make use of stones and bricks from the wall as free construction material. During the Mao era (and even beyond), peasants pilfered tamped earth from the ramparts to replenish their fields, and stones to build houses, walls, and country outhouses.

Fortunately Deng Xiaoping–Mao’s more practical successor—understood the Wall’s iconic value. In 1984, he famously declared: “Love China, Restore the Great Wall,” and launched a restoration and reconstruction effort starting at the sections near Beijing (Badaling was the first to undergo major restoration).

Source: http://www.china-mike.com/china-tourist-attractions/great-wall-china/history-facts/

See: Keep some of it for its "iconic value" (i.e. tourism), tear down the rest to replenish the fields.

 

[eso12por8]

I brought this up in another post 2 days ago.

In China, The Great Wall was build over hills and mountains.
AFAIK, we won't be able to move ground units over mountains, so the Wall won't be built there or need to be, but can it be built to connect mountains to other mountains several times?

^^^^^ This is my biggest gripe with the Great Wall. How the hell are you supposed to scale these mountains?

 

[plasmacannon]

^^^^^ This is my biggest gripe with the Great Wall. How the hell are you supposed to scale these mountains?

Honestly, I feel they need to add a tile between the Highest Mountain Peaks that can not be crossed, and hills.
The Swiss, Inca, Tibetans, Nepalese and others live in the mountains, yet Civ doesn't permit cities there.
Civ5 went from Hills to Mountains.
Civ4 went from Hills to Peaks.
Why can't Civ6 go from Hills to Mountains to Peaks?
Where Peaks are the unpassable terrain.
Mountains would have a higher defense than Hills and take an extra movement point to climb up them.
Roads and Cities could be built there.
Resources could be added such as goats or llamas. Minerals should also more likely to appear in mountains of dirt than on grasslands and be mineable.

and yes, the Great Wall could then be built on these Mountain tiles if desired.

It makes sense to me.

 

[cazaderonus]

I had the same analysis as OP at first but i came to consider that as the great wall is aimed at being an early game structure, it doesnt hurt as much regarding available space. It's been said that you are limited to a specific number of district per city depending on population (if i recall correctly) and population being tied to housing.

So, yeah it's still a basic improvement loss, but considering that the great walla actually add a yield to the tiles where it's built, it's more a trade off than a pure loss. Then, with border growth, it's all up to you to either move the wall or build stuff outside of its perimeter.

Bottom line, considering you wont need 4/5 tiles early for district, building the wall doesnt hurt that much as they still net some gold and you should find enough place for some farms.

Also, you can still buy tiles if need be with the gold from GW, to compensate the terrain investment .

 

[mitsho]

The Swiss, Inca, Tibetans, Nepalese and others live in the mountains, yet Civ doesn't permit cities there.

There are no Swiss Cities in the Mountains, the biggest villages go to around 10 to 15k inhabitants in the Winter. The overwhelming majority of the Swiss population lives in the flatlands (which can be hilly for sure ).

The big cities of Tibet are as well on High Plateaus, so while they are elevated, they are not what civ thinks of mountains, i.e. places where you can't pass that are a natural barrier. Allowing for something like passes would diminish the usefulness of the map a lot.

Mountain Ranges are intended to be barriers around which you can defend your empire. Allowing for singular feats like Hannibals or Napoleons Crossing of the Alps are thus better left at as special abiities of a civ or as a world wonder (i.e. Gotthard Tunell or Channell Tunnel)

I got way off topic, sorry for that. As for China's Great Wall, let's wait and see for a bit.

 

[SupremacyKing2]

I hope the AI knows to build a single long wall and not spam disjointed pieces of the wall all over the place.

I do think this new Great Wall is a bold move. No longer will the player be able to just build it in a city and instantly get a wall around their empire that automatically keeps out barbarians or slows the enemy down. Now, we will need to physically build each piece of the wall and man it with units in order to defend our empire. I just hope the defensive bonus will be big enough to make the wall a strong barrier against an invader.

 

[Mudokon Pop]

Honestly, I feel they need to add a tile between the Highest Mountain Peaks that can not be crossed, and hills.
The Swiss, Inca, Tibetans, Nepalese and others live in the mountains, yet Civ doesn't permit cities there.

Personally I'd like to see plateaus, cliffs both inland and not just coast, and a greater variety of elevation in general.

Although it could be a problem if steep plateaus obscured tiles behind them but varied elevation could change everything. Far more choke points and strategic sites, placing archers on clifftops that the enemy can't reach, higher altitude means slower agricultural and population growth etc...

 

[plasmacannon]

Personally I'd like to see plateaus, cliffs both inland and not just coast, and a greater variety of elevation in general.

Although it could be a problem if steep plateaus obscured tiles behind them but varied elevation could change everything. Far more choke points and strategic sites, placing archers on clifftops that the enemy can't reach, higher altitude means slower agricultural and population growth etc...

Exactly!
There is so much one can do by adding elevation.
I'm glad someone understood where I was going with that.
If Plateaus were added, then there could be most of the same terrain on them as well.

Also, I feel there should be some type of terrain higher than hills, but lower than the tallest peak tiles that can not be traversed.

 

[stealth_nsk]

There's a problem with elevations - buildings on it could obscure things behind it.

 

[skyclad]

Disappointing to have it confirmed, that it does not restrict enemy movement! That's a pretty basic function of a wall isn't it?

 

[stealth_nsk]

Disappointing to have it confirmed, that it does not restrict enemy movement! That's a pretty basic function of a wall isn't it?

Maybe it will be changed. Or, more likely, developers faced some balance problems with the wall. For example, you could flood the narrow passages with great wall (building new pieces as your border moves) and bog enemy units completely, while exploiting "move and shoot" tactics.

 

[daymost]

So the Great Wall has 3 great benefits if you asked me

The obvious first one is in choke points or any places you really want to defend. Put the wall between a choke points then an encampment behind that wall and and now your enemies will have a lot harder time getting through.

As far as we know there aren't any normal terrain improvements that gives cultural or tourism this gives China access some unique yields other civs won't have access to with a normal terrain improvements.

And the most overlooked benefits of the Great Wall, It can make use of useless tiles like desert snow or even tundra. Found a great city location but it has more snow than you'd like just build the wall on the snow and now every tiles will yield you something and maybe it might even protect you from those barbarians who like to spawn on those empty snowy places.