Problem with democracy.

[TimurKozlov]

Hello.

When i change government type to Democracy, i always get two or three riots, so i satisfy them with the buildings they demand. Then they quiet down, then a new city riots, and then my government falls. I have two or more soldiers in every city, and 20% Luxury rate, but still everytime i try to switch to Democracy it just fails...

Does anyone know what to do?

Thanks, TimurKozlov.

 

[Ace]

Welcome to CFC. When you change to Democracy, try setting lux at 40%. And get rid of the excess troops: in Democracy, they don't help with riot control and do require shield support. So one good unit is plenty to garrison a city, you may even go with no garrison unit in your inner cities that cannot be reached by pirates and/or barbs.

A marketplace is vital because is gives you a 50% increase in lux.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

When you change to Democracy, try setting lux at 40%. ...
A marketplace is vital because is gives you a 50% increase in lux.

With a marketplace, a temple, some trade routes, and the right wonders 20% is enough. Most cities can even celebrate at that level. 30% will give you celebration just about everywhere. I rarely ever go higher than that.

 

[Ace]

With a marketplace, a temple, some trade routes, and the right wonders 20% is enough. Most cities can even celebrate at that level. 30% will give you celebration just about everywhere. I rarely ever go higher than that.

Agreed that 20% will usually do the trick, but when I first switch to Democracy, I like to adjust the lux to 40%, than after the revolution box closes, go check the happiness status and adjust the rate as required.

 

[macmgr]

It all kind of depends on what Wonders you've built, guys...Shakespeare is great for fleeets, and I tend to be very conservative - either Mike's Chapel and/or Women's Suffrage before switching to Democracy.
bz

 

[AZA]

That's why i think the Statue of Liberty is so important. Certainly one of the top 7.
If you have all the happy generating wonders, you can live at 0% luxuries but you will still have a few Elvis's singing during a democracy.
20% is pretty standard. Later you can ramp it up to 50% but you better have aquaducts and sewer systems in place cause those new babies use a lot of diapers. It's a good score booster.
AZA

 

[Ali Ardavan]

AZA, what does Statue of Liberty has to do with happiness in Democracy?

 

[AZA]

TimurK was expressing the problem with his cities rioting and his democracy government falling into anarchy. The Statue of Liberty does not offer any happiness value, it just allows one to get out of anarchy promptly and switch back to democracy or any other government. Without it anarchy can painfully continue for several turns creating great frustration and a major loss of production and give your enemies a chance to bribe and buy units or worse your cities.

I think this wonder it is very valuable, almost neccesary, when governing with democracy.

I toggle on and off the control alerting me to cities in unrest. If you forget to toggle it on on you can a painful series of riot alerts on your next turn when nearly all 50 of your cities riot.

TimurK had already recieved good advice in keeping his folks from not rioting. I was just expressing the value of the Liberty Wonder in getting back to a happy breeding population promptly.

Your right Ali in that my advice is not exactly on topic but it might help a bit governing under democracy.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

OK. That explains it.
But why would you turn off the control telling you about rioting cities? Dealing with riots is far cheaper than a 400 shield wonder. I rarely build it and I often play in Democracy.

 

[AZA]

Ali...
i toggle the riot notice off when i "deliberatly" go into anarchy. That way i dont have to hear all those bloody city riots at the beginning of my next turn.

Why do i choose to go into anarchy from such a productive democratic government? Sometimes my senate ( they just dont understand my desires ) will not allow me to attack and to take a needed city at the appropiate time. The only way i know is to deliberatly go into anarchy and do my dirty work. With the Statue of needed Liberties i can return to democracy at the end of my next turn thus inflicting damage to the ai for 2 turns. By then all my units need mediacl and repair work so i high tail them to a barracked city(s) for a quick recovery and wait until my bloodlust or a need returns.

its hard to wage war on your on terms while in democracy... unless you have some advice for me. my senate is always demanding peace at the wrong time.

AZA

 

[Ali Ardavan]

Now it makes even more sense. Typically democracy players are trying to maintain peace and win by space ship. When I feel I have to wage war after democracy I switch to fundamentalism. This way I achieve my military goals while building up my treasury. Typically in fundy I get more money per turn than I can spend. Then I switch back to democracy, set luxuries high enough for widespread celebrations and spend my treasury on improvements.

 

[Ace]

With patience, you can wage war in Democracy. Keep a spotless reputation and suffer through a couple of "sneak attacks" by the ai civ, and your senate will authorize "continued peacekeeping activies" against your enemy.

The only time you really need to change govs is when you reduce a civ to its capital, and that civ absolutely refuses to go to war with you. Wait until an Oedo year is next up, than revolt, wipe out the ai city, than stay in democracy when you have to choose a gov.

Ali is correct that playing in Democracy usually means you are playing for a spaceship landing and a high score as opposed to an early conquest game. (Not much point in building the infrastructure and trade routes to support a Democracy when your goal is to build Elephants and conquor the world before 1ad.)

 

[Prof. Garfield]

Another way to go to war in democracy is to ask someone to declare war against the civ you want to attack; if their spies discover your betrayal, they will declare war on you. This method may cost some gold, but it doesn't damage your reputation or cause your government to fall.

 

[AZA]

Im rereading Ali, Ace and Garfield's advice... Thanks guys.
For me, in playing diety its almost too easy to use the fundy government. If my back is against the wall i will revert to it, but that is in desperation and my last option. Democracy is a challenge to rule in both war and peace. Im not sure why i insist on playing in it.

I dont think i have ever bribed someone to declare war on another civ as it is generally too expensive. Sometimes the requested amount is well beyond outrageous. To take enemy cities i generally buy their revolting cities with veteraned spies for a half price sale. Using a vet spy always yields a cheaper purchase price than a plain diplomat on the capital side of a city. I always try the far side. Interesting and logical. Buying the first city often allows me to attack and sustain attacks on several other cities during that turn, if i refuse to talk with them. Otherwise i may have to go into revolt to achieve my goals for this and the next turn.
Ali... "continued peacekeeping activies" that is what i love to see. It generally seems to occur after someone has done me wrong. You can easily crush someone when your senate continues to state that. Most often tho i get sued for peace.

It would be interesting to have 2 skilled players going head to head, one with democracy and the other with fundy. I would give odds to the fundy but a good democracy player's units or cities cannot be bribed and with a bank full of cash a demo player could buyout the fundy. Lots of variables tho. Your newly purchased cities might lack happy makers and plunge your entire civ into anarchy if you cant get it under control. Gotta buy temples, marketplaces and such pronto.

Great game, always a challenge.
I would like to play someone head to head. My son and i tried it but it is tedious and very time consuming. Interesting tho. He tells me a new version is coming that can be played on his X-Box and a game just lasts a couple hours or so. Hum. I dont like or never got the hang of Civ 3 or 4 which he sometimes plays. I enjoy 2 aplenty. Sid and crew did a great job. Very few flaws and it never crashes or locks.
AZA

 

[LordValuna]

Another way to go to war in democracy is to ask someone to declare war against the civ you want to attack; if their spies discover your betrayal, they will declare war on you. This method may cost some gold, but it doesn't damage your reputation or cause your government to fall.

thats a great tip, never seen it before. the Ai's of course have to have contact. gold is meaningless if you run demo right (so i hear anyways)

 

[Ali Ardavan]

I would like to play someone head to head.

That is what the GOTMs are for. Why don't you join us?

 

[civiijkw]

Getting back to what causes civil disorder in democracy:

If you don't have women's suffrage then each unit on campaign (even if not actually at war) causes two steps of unhappy workers in the home city (or one step in a republic without women's suffrage, or one step in a democracy if you DO have women's suffrage). If you haven't prepared for this then going into democracy is just begging for your government to fall.

It is quite possible to run a war under democracy (even one where the AI has tanks and fighters), but requires regularly switching over to the attitude advisor to check on the happiness of the cities.

 

[Banach]

It would be interesting to have 2 skilled players going head to head, one with democracy and the other with fundy. I would give odds to the fundy but a good democracy player's units or cities cannot be bribed and with a bank full of cash a demo player could buyout the fundy. Lots of variables tho. Your newly purchased cities might lack happy makers and plunge your entire civ into anarchy if you cant get it under control. Gotta buy temples, marketplaces and such pronto.
AZA

I analyzed this problem a long time ago using a simplified approach involving hermite polynomials and the KDV equation. Afte evaluating the bromwich integral the answer became clear - the odds are 42:1 in favor of the democracy player.

In all seriousness, I'd give odds to the demo player if he was good, but maybe I've read too much starlifter.....I'm still a novice at Demo but I'm coming around. One of these days I'll see how hard I can push hyper-expansion.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

All things being equal at any given time, it is arguable over whether democracy or fundamentalism will be better, especially at war. The value of democracy is that it is easy to make sure that things are not equal. With WLTPD, you can make cities grow quickly, and get an industrial base greater than that offered by Fundy. Overall, it is better to pay support for units than to be unable to produce them due to lack of industrial base. As for happiness, the easiest way to circumvent unhappiness causing troops is stealth fighters. For the unhappiness of one unit (the carrier) you can assault anything within 7 squares of the ocean with practical impunity, unless the enemy has SAMs. With democracy, however, it is not unreasonable to expect that you will have stealth before the enemy has Rocketry.

 

[Duke of Marlbrough]

If the Demo player can survive the mid game portion and establish his power democracy, he should be able to wipe out any other player in the end game.