Production is too slow!

[Usama84]

Man, I discovered artillery before I could even build a field cannon. They really need to increase production and allow MUPT, this is getting absurd! The modern era in 1770?

to mods: sorry if this was posted already, please redirect if so.

 

[DontTread]

I think that science is too fast. There is no time to produce an army

 

[ColPaladin]

I could not agree more. I have always played every Civ game, since the first one, on "Standard". This is the first Civ I've played on quick speed, as the turns to produce anything on Standard are soooo, daaaarn, loooong. Problem is, quick is almost too fast. Standards needs to lower turns to build stuff about 20-25%. And they also need to make it so building projects can be put on "Continuous" for GOSH sakes.

Ya, sciences is a bit too fast, but I always, every game, run out of Civics projects long before the game ends. And ya, they need to make it so you can put endgame Civ research on "Continuous" also.

Building things takes forever; but on the other side of the coin, you can spend every turn reassigning sciences, civics, building projects, spies and trades routes ad nausea multiple times a turn. It's an awful combination of long term boredom with tedious micro.

 

[Acken]

While I think science is too fast I dont think production is too high comparatively (wonders are too high though imo). As long as you set your production correctly you will be able to make things in a reasonable time. That is beelines to production boosts, using bonuses, area effects of industrial buildings, mines and trade routes.

Where there is a problem in my opinion is not in the costs themselves. Nerfing that and leaving it there would be a disaster.
No. The problem I think is that you are required to do the above in order to meet the costs.

THAT is the issue with production. And indirectly less experienced players not doing it simply suffer and will blame production costs. Again, with that strategy available, the production costs make perfect sense.
I personally am all for a diminution of costs IF it is followed by nerfing the above production bonuses. I think doing that will open the game to more diversity of plays AND will give a smoother game for everybody else.

 

[Usama84]

dude, it was taking me like 300 turns to build a watermill in Baghdad (population 12).... i just gave up. I think its more of an issue in the late mid game. I was doing ok in the early game, but your production gets caught up with districts and builders have to be rebuilt all the time too

 

[Acken]

Over exagerating much ?

Again, production costs assume youre doing your factory beelines correctly. If you do, production is not an issue. The argumebt is that such a beeline is bad for the game and therefore should be avoided. Once its removed from the game, a nerf of production costs is required.

 

[DanQuayle]

The more I play the game, the less I find reasons to deviate from beeling to the production techs.
I think that if some of the production bonuses (+1 hammer to mines from Apprenticeship, +1 hammer to mines from Industrialization, +1 hammer to quarries from Rocketry) were moved to techs to the bottom of the tech tree that it would balance things more.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

The 'Production Beeline' is a simply lousy way to design a game. The result is that any new city not within the radius of the Industrial District of an older city can't build diddly/squat from the early mid-game on. In every game, any city I start in the Medieval or later Eras takes 60+ turns to build its first unit and 30 - 40 turns to build its first city center building. What the effect is, is to inhibit expansion of a Civ - again. Since the rising costs of Districts and Builders already inhibit mid-game expansion, this is really a case of stomping on a player when he's down.

What needs to happen is that the Production Improvements/Increases need to be moved to the Industrial Era when they actually started to occur (power tools, steam-driven equipment), production costs reduced for Buildings and some units (but NOT Wonders, which should require some concentration of resources to build) and perhaps the costs of basic buildings (Granary, Monument) should actually go down as Tech progresses. Modern power tools and machinery can whip together a warehouse in weeks compared to older methods of laying brick by hand. Perhaps some very specific Techs or Tech Effects that decrease the cost along about the Industrial Era?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Tech rate compared to unit production time and travel time is definitely off. Even if someone gouges production, the time it takes to produce an army and capture a city is typically on par with an entire era.

Slow speeds offset the movement constraint, but the scaling is poor in general. It's very fast to tech w/o much special investment in teching now.

 

[Guandao]

The time to build districts can take around 30 turns or more for me while playing standard speed.

 

[Manifold]

In the Renaissance should be added a new production building: The Manufactory.

The workshop should be moved to the classic age. In the Medieval Era the windmill should give more production.

 

[Gorbles]

The 'Production Beeline' is a simply lousy way to design a game. The result is that any new city not within the radius of the Industrial District of an older city can't build diddly/squat from the early mid-game on. In every game, any city I start in the Medieval or later Eras takes 60+ turns to build its first unit and 30 - 40 turns to build its first city center building. What the effect is, is to inhibit expansion of a Civ - again. Since the rising costs of Districts and Builders already inhibit mid-game expansion, this is really a case of stomping on a player when he's down.

What needs to happen is that the Production Improvements/Increases need to be moved to the Industrial Era when they actually started to occur (power tools, steam-driven equipment), production costs reduced for Buildings and some units (but NOT Wonders, which should require some concentration of resources to build) and perhaps the costs of basic buildings (Granary, Monument) should actually go down as Tech progresses. Modern power tools and machinery can whip together a warehouse in weeks compared to older methods of laying brick by hand. Perhaps some very specific Techs or Tech Effects that decrease the cost along about the Industrial Era?

By that logic, anything in the game that encourages a specific strategy for victory is a "lousy way to design a game". Calling something that does not make something that.

The issue is a compound issue. Further to what Acken said, the issue with Production is that it drives gameplay. You can't build anything without it. It's presence is felt a lot more than a particularly hefty research cost, or civic cost. So the perception of things taking too long to build will affect the player more negatively (by giving you less to do) compared to anything else taking a longer amount of time. Moving the Production bonuses to later Eras will not help that; especially if the game isn't already coping well when you start later than the Ancient Era (given your Medieval example). It also isn't historical because all sorts of technologies improved productivity. The water mill did. Sailing did (logistics, etc). Roadbuilding did. It's not just the literal application of steam power and / or industrial manufacturing that advanced productivity.

That said, pacing the tech tree better would alleviate a lot of this. Not only would you have a lot more time to do anything that specific techs let you do (instead of skipping over entire unit upgrades along the tech path), but you could iron out the Era pacing in general and make sure the bonuses to various yields were more tightly-balanced. With this, then the Production costs might not be so much of an issue. Or maybe they'd still need touching up (more likely). But research should be hit first.

Also somewhat unrelatedly, I think there needs to be some detailed data-gathering done on resource distribution. Iron and Nitre, anecdotally, seem way too inconsistent in their spawnings. Given the impact of Mines on both Production yields and adjacency bonuses for Industrial Districts (IIRC), it's relevant to this topic too. It could be that this is more an issue with forced obsoletion (i.e. I don't have Nitre but my only available melee unit is Musketmen despite not being able to build them), but I think identifying issues in map generation earlier rather than later on will benefit Firaxis in the long run.