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Promotion tweaks

Discussion in 'Civ4 - MOO2Civ' started by fulano, Feb 12, 2010.

  1. fulano

    fulano Chieftain

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    I started this thread so we have a specific place to discuss making the promotion effects a little more varied and useful and fun, since the new tech tree makes it so any tech that isn't good won't ever get researched.

    First I wanted to talk about the beam weapons:
    I agree. I will wait for Jeelen's permission to change things though. To recap:

    Weapon special abilities:
    +1 first strike = No range dissipation (mass driver, gauss cannon, disruptor, stellar converter)
    +1 first strike chance = Normal weapons (graviton beam, phasor)
    +4% capture chance = Crew & System damaging (Ion cannon, Neutron Blaster)
    +20% city attack = Stellar Converter
    No Special = High dissipation (fusion, plasma, mauler)


    Weapon Strengths:
    10% strength = fusion, mass driver, neutron
    15% strength = graviton, ion pulse
    20% strength = phasor, gauss
    25% strength = plasma, disruptor
    40% strength = mauler
    60% strength = stellar converter
     
  2. Agent327

    Agent327 Observer

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    :lol: Well, you got my permission. ;) (I found all these + X % promotions rather redundant myself, but didn't know in what way to improve on them and MinorAnnoyance's idea just seems right on the dot.)

    Actually I was thinking more along these lines:

    Phasor & Plasma = +25% strength*
    Disruptor & Mauler = +50% strength**
    Stellar Converter = +100% strength**

    * There's also the Plasma Torpedo (which dissipates - the one the Orion Guardian uses- and thus seems neigh impossible to emulate...)

    ** If I remember correctly these hit instantly and do quite a lot of damage that way (so +50/100% may not even come close, but the problem here is the damage should be attack only, not defense); then again, in Civ terms it may be a tad bit much. (I thought the damage was Disruptor 20, Mauler 50, Stellar 100+ damage points - something like that.) But to keep with it it might then be

    Phasor & Plasma = +20% strength
    Disruptor = +25%
    Mauler = +50%
    Stellar Converter = +100%

    (Once again, only for attack.)
     
  3. fulano

    fulano Chieftain

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    I thought of a problem with my first plan. For example, why would I use plasma that is more expensive if phasors do the same and give a first strike chance? Here's list of the weapons by RP requirement.

    150 fusion
    250 mass driver
    900 neutron blaster
    900 ion pulse cannon
    1150 graviton
    2000 phasors
    2750 gauss
    3500 plasma
    4500 disruptor
    6000 mauler
    15000 stellar converter

    So I propose:
    10% = fusion, mass driver, neutron
    15% = graviton, ion pulse
    20% = phasor, gauss
    25% = plasma, disruptor
    40% = mauler
    50% = stellar converter

    I think weapon size is what largely limited the mauler and the stellar converter, that's why I would rather not see them with such huge bonuses.
    Also the first strike and 20% city attack will still make the stellar converter a very effective weapon at 50%, the idea of putting it at 100% is just scary to me! :)

    I made changes to the first post to reflect my latest opinion.
     
  4. Agent327

    Agent327 Observer

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    Well, the Stellar Converter is supposed to be scary, but that said the list looks fine to me. ;)
     
  5. fulano

    fulano Chieftain

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    So far, the changes in the first post are made for my version of MoO2Civ. I'll put in in the new tech tree post as v1.1b

    My next ideas for promotion tweaks:
    With the beam changes it will be easy to get a first strike per ship level making it possible to build a new ship with 5 or 6 first strikes. Should the computer promotion be changed from +1 first strike to +2 first strike chance? This way a ship might have 2-6 first strikes instead of just 6. I do worry that would make players just ignore the computers though.

    Could the displacement device be given a first strike as well? The idea is to counter first strikes of other ships, making it more likely the ship with the displacement device will survive.

    Also, suggested missile strength changes (should they be stronger?) I got the numbers from the increase of strength of the actual missiles (they do 8, 14, 20, then 30).
    +10% strength = nuclear missile
    +16% strength = merculite missile
    +22% strength = pulson missile
    +33% strength = zeon missile
     
  6. Agent327

    Agent327 Observer

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    Will check that out today. (And you are ofcourse free to upload your own MOO2Civ modmod.) ;)

    I'd suggest limiting first strikes to 1-2 and using first strikes chances after that. (6 first strikes seems a bit over the top.)

    Definitely. (I remember using the DD that way in MoO II when engaging in battle).

    Hm. One has to reckon with the AI stupidity issue here (i.e. not using missiles at all!); I'm not sure if an increase in missile strength will not just skew the game further in favour of human players vs AI.
     
  7. fulano

    fulano Chieftain

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    I meant the missile promotions, not the missile units, I think the missile units are fine and dandy. :)

    I will also change the computer's benefit to chances and see how I like that.

    EDIT: I changed it so computer 1 = 1st strike chance, #2 = first strike, #3 = chance, #4 = first strike
     
  8. Agent327

    Agent327 Observer

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    :eek: "Attila sorry for misunderstanding"... No problemo then!
     
  9. fulano

    fulano Chieftain

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    I was digging deeper into the promotions system and found some big problems! I could fix them but I want to consult with you guys first.

    Here's the current system:
    -Beam weapons and other ship systems have no prereqs and can each be picked any time the player wants one.
    -Missiles, shields, and armor promotions require the earlier version to progress. Like shields III requires shields I.
    -Each shield and missile progression adds 10% bonus. So shields I & II add up to a 20% bonus.
    -Shields systems and missile systems require the user to have shields I or missile I to be able to include those systems. Like you need Shields I to have hard shields. That makes sense to me.

    Here are the problems:
    -To be able to have shields X, zeon missiles, and adamantium on your ship you need to have your ship at level 13 at least. This is if you picked no other promotions. (I've never had a ship past level 6)
    -Beam weapons will always be picked first because they can have a greater benefit with fewer levels.
    -This makes shield, armor, and missile promotions useless because there is no way a ship will get to that level, even with 9 planets on a star with all three experience buildings on each planet you would get 54 (9 * 3 * 2) experience, which is level eight maybe?


    The solutions:
    Option 1.
    I could just calm down :mischief: and wait for CyberChrist to make his changes:
    Spoiler :

    I don't understand exactly what he wrote means but I guess his changes will let you choose up to X number of promotions based on ship size when the ship is first built. It might resolve the above problems if I understood it right. Very cool but it is a big project.

    I would love to see this happen!
    Problems: We might be waiting a while for this change. A temporary fix might be better for now, and won't be too hard to do for me.


    Option 2.
    I can make the weapons require a previous level to match the other ship systems.
    Spoiler :
    Something like this:
    mass driver -> Gauss cannon -> disruptor -> stellar converter
    fusion -> plasma -> mauler
    Laser -> graviton -> phasor
    Then I can increase the experience gained when a ship is constructed from +2 to something like +8 so more of the promotions are made available.

    I don't like this option.
    Problems:
    -You would have to research each tech still to get to the final promotion. In MoO2 you can skip from shields I to shields X.
    -You would probably never see a level up for a ship once it is built.
    -A new ship's level will depend on the number of planets a star has, not very fair.


    Option 3.
    -I can remove prereqs for missile, shield and armor promotions so they don't depend on each other.
    -Armor, Missile, and shield promotions would have to be rebalanced.
    -Systems like hard shields would have to be fixed like this:
    Spoiler :
    Promotions can have up to two OR prereqs (who knows why they didn't just do the same thing as the tech prereq system uses).
    I could create multiple promotions with each one requiring two of the promotions the system needs.
    For example I would create 3 multiphased shields promotions, one requiring shields I OR III, the next requiring shields V OR VIII and the third requiring shields X. This way no matter what the user chooses there will be a multiphased shields promotion available afterwords.
    This would cause multiple promotions to show up in the civiopedia which might confuse people.
    -When you build a new ship at the end of the game you can pick Shields X, Adamandium armor, and Stellar converter for a ship that is level 3.

    I like this option as the temporary fix. It really would not take me too long. I also think it will be just as compatible with CyberChrist's changes as the current system.
    Problems: The list of promotions for a new ship will be very large, but I could clean it up and change the icons so it will be easier to find what you want.


    Confession: :rolleyes:
    Okay, I admit, what I want to do is basically a redo of the promotions system like the redo of the tech tree. I do have time and am willing to do it if you guys want to see it done. If you don't want it done I will not be upset. :) I'll just work on something else.
     
  10. Agent327

    Agent327 Observer

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    If you have the time I'd go with option 3. (BTW, as far as I understand it in order to build a missile you currently need either a Missile Base or a Starbase. But that's the only current example of an or prereq that I know of.)

    Anyway, you might PM CyberChrist about it before doing anything about it for now.

    Something I forgot to mention: with v 1.2b you can now at some point choose between Optronic Comp (1 first hit) and Mass Driver (1 first hit + 10% strength), making Optr. Comp. a bit of a redundant promotion. I'd suggest changing it to
    - Optronic Comp. ...1 first strike chance + 10% strength/space defense
    - Mass Driver ........1 first strike
    (Mass Driver only being an offensive weapon as opposed to Optr. Comp. enhancing a ship's performance as a whole).
     
  11. fulano

    fulano Chieftain

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    I was thinking of discussing ways we could make the promotions as varied as possible here, because they are still very redundant. The idea with the computer is a good one. Civ4 just boils the combat system down to very few options. It's boring compared to combat in MoO2. :)

    I will write that post later though because it takes a while to plan out and explain things.
     
  12. Agent327

    Agent327 Observer

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    Well, with the tweaks you've made so far they're already quite less so, IMO. ;)
     

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