Promotions and special abilities

[Maniac]

Anyone got any ideas for promotions (gained through XP) and special abilities (put on a design)? I'll publish this after the next release.

Some ideas I had:

Promotions

Anti-Infantry: +25% vs Infantry. Possible other name: Plasma Thrower or Plasma Shard. Could also give +25% attack against native life. Possible overlap with Empath Song though. And if called Plasma Shard it probably makes more sense as a special ability than as a promotion.

Anti-Tank: +25% vs Rover, Hovertank and Treaded. In SMAC tradition this could be renamed ECM. Though that seems more like something which would give a defensive bonus against missiles.

Combat I to V: +10% strength. Should these be renamed Disciplined to Elite? If so, what about Commando? Given that Civ4 also has a promotion called Commando? Rename which one, and to what?

Commando: can use enemy roads.

Hypnotic Trance: would like this to be promotion as well as special ability which gives +25% or +50% psi defense, and gives bNoBadGoodies. Impossible though.

Empath Song? +25% or +50% psi attack. Promo and/or special ability?

Resonadar: this is currently a special ability. Though how about this being a promotion becoming available with a psionics/centauri tech, gives +1 visibility and can spot invisible native life and cloaked units, while Deep Radar would become a special ability which becomes available with some computers tech, gives +1 invisibility and can spot invisible submarines? Not possible to implement at the moment though.

Special Abilities

Question here first: do we want some special abilities to require another special ability? For instance a Marine Detachment requires a Storage Bay. Or Drop Pods require Jet Pack. Or would that make things too complex or confusing?

AAA Tracking: +Interception ability
Prereq: High Intensity Lasers
Available to Treaded, Cruiser (and Foil??)

Cloaking Device: invisibility
Prereq: Temporal Mechanics??
Available to Hovertank and Interceptor

Drop Pods: gives drop range
Prereq: Kinematics
Available to Infantry

Jet Pack: can attack without amphibious penalty
Prereq: Needlejet
Available to Infantry

Marine Detachment:: can capture enemy ships
Prereq: Needlejet?
Available to Foil and Cruiser

Storage Bay: +1 cargo capacity
Prereq: NONE?
Available to Foil and Cruiser



***

Some thoughts about SMAC special abilities:

Super Former, Fungicide Tanks: not worth making Formers designable units just for these IMO. Similar effects could be given by a tech (eg +x% work rate) or a resource (eg one which doubles fungus removal speed).
Comm Jammer/ECM: ??
Antigrav Struts: +1 movement, make it available to infantry?
Empath Song: should definitely be included IMO
Polymorphic Encryption: was useless in SMAC. In Civ4 even more, considering there is no bribing
High Morale: free Combat I promotion or XP. Is this considered worth including as a special ability?
Clean Reactor: Include?
Blink Displacer: Include?
Nerve Gas Pods: Include somehow??
Non-Lethal Methods: Include? Personally I'd like to avoid hordes of cheap lowest strength police units though, especially since military happiness is unlimited in Civ4.
Soporific Gas Pods: -2 enemy morale vs non-native: just another variation of a strength boosting ability
Dissociative Wave: fizzles special abilities. Interesting concept. Would need some thought on where to apply it to Planetfall.
Fuel Nanocells: Include?
Algorithmic Enhancement: not worth making probe teams designable IMO. Spy boosts can just be given for free by techs if desired.

These are already included in some form, either through a special ability, inherent chassis effect or total concept unit:

Deep Radar, 0, MilAlg, , 010000111111, Sees 2 spaces
Cloaking Device, 1, Surface, Cloaked, 000001111001, Invisible; Ignores ZOCs
Amphibious Pods, 1, DocInit, Amphibious,000000001001, Attacks from ship
Drop Pods, 2, MindMac, Drop, 000000111001, Makes air drops
Air Superiority, 1, DocAir, SAM, 000000001111, Attacks air units
Deep Pressure Hull, 1, Metal, Sub, 000000111010, Operates underwater
Carrier Deck, 1, Metal, Carrier, 000101101010, Mobile Airbase
AAA Tracking, 1, MilAlg, AAA, 000010001011, x2 vs. air attacks
Heavy Artillery, -7, Poly, Artillery, 000010001001, Bombards
Hypnotic Trance, -1, Brain, Trance, 000010111111, +50% defense vs. Psi
Heavy Transport, 1, Disable, Heavy, 000100100111, +50% transport capacity
Repair Bay, 1, Metal, Repair, 000100100111, Repairs ground units on board
Marine Detachment, 1, AdapDoc, Marine, 000001001010, Capture enemy ships

 

[Maniac]

W00t I can copy threads!

 

[General_W]

Excellent start here

Combat I to V: +10% strength. Should these be renamed Disciplined to Elite? If so, what about Commando? Given that Civ4 also has a promotion called Commando? Rename which one, and to what?

How about:

• Combat 1 = Hardened
• Combat 2 = Disciplined
• Combat 3 = Veteran
• Combat 4 = Elite
• Combat 5 = Special Forces

Commando can then stay as the ability to use enemy roads. Or maybe change it to "Real-time Mapping" – to give it a more sci-fi edge and differentiate it from the Combat promotions?

I think Blink Displacers and Comm Jammers should defiantly be included in some way.

Blink Displacer: Bypass walls and tychon fields. (if they exist in this mod?) It's a cool ability, and adds interesting strategic options for someone fighting a builder with a turtle mentality.

Comm Jammer: +50% (25%?) against fast units. Again – adds interesting strategic choices that can punish someone who is over-relying on just fast attack units. Encourages balanced force composition.
​

The others I'm pretty much indifferent about – as they don't add much, don't work with Civ4, or can be unbalancing.
But if someone comes up with a great way to include them – that's cool

I'm going to leave the Psi ones alone, since I don't feel like I have a good handle on how Psi combat is going to be handled in this mod. But I agree, Psi combat promotions should defiantly be available!

 

[korn469]

How about:
Combat 1 = Hardened
Combat 2 = Disciplined
Combat 3 = Veteran
Combat 4 = Commando
Combat 5 = Elite

plus make sure that elite grants +1 to movement

Commando = Infiltration

 

[Ellestar]

The others I'm pretty much indifferent about – as they don't add much, don't work with Civ4, or can be unbalancing.

I'll make SDK changes if nessesary.

I'm going to leave the Psi ones alone, since I don't feel like I have a good handle on how Psi combat is going to be handled in this mod. But I agree, Psi combat promotions should defiantly be available!

Psi combat! Crucial for native life and perhaps later for some human psi adepts as well.

Normally combat makes use of a unit base combat strength. In unmodded Civ4 this is <iCombat>. In Planetfall this is currently the sum of <iCombat> in ChassisInfos and WeaponInfos, and <iCombatModifier> in PromotionInfos (Ellestar: actually, <iCombatModifier> was removed). Gerikes also coded some XML tags in PromotionInfos to seperately increase attack or defense strength, but I don't see a use for those at the moment (Ellestar: not working either). In any case, this base combat strength is used for both offense and defense in unmodded Civ4.

What I would suggest for psi combat is that the base combat strength of the two units in a battle is ignored, and replaced by:
For the attacker: always a base combat strength of 3
For the defender: Depends on the domain of the defending unit. As in SMAC the value I'd try out for DOMAIN_LAND is 2; for the other domains (DOMAIN_SEA, DOMAIN_AIR and DOMAIN_IMMOBILE) three.

Q: When is a battle a psi battle?
A: When at least one of the two units taking part in a battle is a psi unit.

Q: When is a unit a psi unit?
A: When it has the boolean XML tag <bPsi></bPsi> set to 1. New tag, should be added to CIV4ChassisInfos.xml (Ellestar: Civ4ComponentInfos.xml).

Q: What about collateral damage?
A: If the unit dealing collateral damage is a psi unit, all damage is calculated using the units' combat strength. If the unit dealing collateral damage is a conventional unit, and only part of the target units are psi, the conventional combat strengths are used for the conventional targets, and the psi combat strengths are used to calculate the collateral damage to the psi unit (Ellestar: not sure what it means so right now game uses same logic as with a Combat value above).

Q: What about ranged and air combat?
A: As with conventional direct combat, <iAirCombat> should be ignored and replaced by the psi combat strengths.

Psi combat strength, just like conventional base combat strengths, is affected by all kinds of possible modifiers. Combat promotions, terrain and feature attack and defense boni, fortifying, river crossing... No need to change all that.

***

Also, psi attack and psi defence bonus is available for components and promotions (it's applied when you attack a psi unit or defend vs a psi unit).

 

[Maniac]

Hmm, forgot an important word I noticed:

Q: What about collateral damage?
A: If the unit dealing collateral damage is a psi unit, all damage is calculated using the units' PSI combat strength. If the unit dealing collateral damage is a conventional unit, and only part of the target units are psi, the conventional combat strengths are used for the conventional targets, and the psi combat strengths are used to calculate the collateral damage to the psi unit

 

[Maniac]

I renamed Commando to Logistics. I also added Antigrav Struts, Blink Displacer and Fuel Nanocells of the "traditional" SMAC spec abs.

 

[The_Reckoning]

Q: Are Zones of Control in?

Idea:

Barracks-type buildings start units with Combat I. All specialist promotions [+25% vs. X] require Combat I. Spartans, projects, SE/'civics' give +xp.

???

Drawing board

Spoiler :

 

[Yakk]

Might I suggest we remove the "combat X" promotions, and automatically give them when you earn enough XP?

Ie, a free (scripted) promotion with XP levels as follows:
Level 0 = Green +0%
Level 1 = Untrained +10%
Level 2 = Trained +20%
Level 3 = Hardened +30%
Level 4 = Disciplined +40%
Level 5 = Veteran +50%
Level 6 = Commando +60%
Level 7 = Elite +70%
Level 8 = Legendary +80%
Level 9 = Alpha +90%
Level 10 = Omega +100%

On top of that, the player gets to buy "normal" promotions, which give each unit some flavor on top of that.

This has the advantage that buying Drill, or Collateral, or Flanking, or Anti-infantry tactics doesn't "gimp" your unit like it often does in Civ4, and means that we can have promotions that require a certain level of experience require the above promotions.

Some "side-promotions" might have to be toned down (city raider/city defender -- you know, the good ones!), and some might have to be extended (anti infantry I: +15% vs Infantry. Anti Infantry II: requires Trained, +10% vs Infantry. Anti Infantry III: requires Disciplined, +10% vs Infantry. Anti Infantry IV: requires Commando, +10% vs Infantry. Etc.)

 

[Wodan]

What currency would be used to buy promotions? Gold? Not sure I like that. Means that Santiago's troops would have less promotions than Morgan's.

I suppose it could be compensated by special buildings that give free XP or free promotions.

Wodan

 

[Yakk]

I'd argue that Promotions and Upgrades should be different things.

Promotions are unit quality features, training and the like.

Upgrades technological improvements. These could require gold.

That means that Santiago's troops will be crack quality, while Morgan's will have the best kit for their tech level...

 

[Maniac]

Yep that's indeed the difference between promotions and special abilities.

I kinda like your idea.

Some practical problems at the moment. Eg I can think of a way to basically give two promotions with one XP upgrade without frequent python checks.

And some more ideas for promotions that fit for Planetfall would be needed.

Eg Guerilla doesn't make much sense in the Planetfall terrain system. Can't really think of a futuristic equivalent of Drill either.

 

[Yakk]

Squad Tactics: 0-2/0-4/0-6 first strikes, +15%/+25%/+40% withdraw

Coordinated Tactics: 1/2/4 first strikes, +5%/15%/25% withdraw

Guerilla: +25%/50%/50% fungus defense, +0%/25%/50% fungus attack, +1/+1-2/+1-3 first strikes, +0%/+10%/+40% withdraw, 2x fungus move at level 1.

 

[Wodan]

Good. I said I wasn't sure I liked it just so Maniac would say he did. Nice, Yakk.

Wodan

 

[General_W]

I know I'm really spotty in commenting around here &#8211; but for what it's worth, I think Yakk's suggestion sounds really cool &#8211; as long as it can be kept simple enough that people don't get confused.

Some practical problems at the moment. Eg I can think of a way to basically give two promotions with one XP upgrade without frequent python checks.

I assume you meant "can NOT think of way" ?

If so &#8211; what about restricting the players choice when they get an XP advances to only being able to upgrade to the next level. (ie, from untrained to trained, from hardened to disciplined, etc.)
THEN make this advancement trigger a special event. Kind of like the BtS random events &#8211; granting your unit access to a secondary menu of flavor XP options (city raider, flanking, anti-infantry, etc).

It wouldn't be confusing for the player, because they would always get the training upgrade first, since they aren't even given the option to choose a flavor upgrade instead, and then, after the training upgrade is selcted, they get a choice of bonus ability to add flavor to the unit.

Spoiler Event Example :

<player wins a combat>

"Congrats! Our unit has more experience! Click to upgrade:
Option A) Trained -> Hardened "

<trigger special event>

"Now that this unit is Hardened, you can also grant them an enhanced ability! Please choose which ability you'd like:
Option A) City Raider
Option B) Flanking
Option C) Squad Tactics"

[The enhanced ability list can expand to have more options the higher in training a unit goes]

Now &#8211; this is coming from someone with only a rudimentary handle on programming who has admittedly never tinkered with the SDK.
So I have no idea if my proposal is workable or not.

But at the least, I hope to help inspire someone smarter than me!


P.S. Just my personal opinion, but if this idea is adopted, then I think the training order should start with "untrained" then progress to "green" then to "trained" &#8230; as it seems a bit confusing if your first training upgrade is to "untrained"!

 

[Maniac]

It would be really annoying interfacewise if you got a popup for every promotion chosen. IMO you should just pick the "normal" promotions (Flanking etc) the way you always pick promotions in Civ4, and then your morale would automatically increase a level too, no extra clicks required. However we can't just give all promotions +10% - the morale promotions should remain seperate, for I assume we'd want to let all Spartan units start with eg +2 morale levels, without already having any "normal" promotions.

 

[Duneflower]

Personally, I think the Combat promos should be left as-are (thus preserving the generalist/specialist option) and units given a psi-specific auto-promo each time they level-up.

FWIW, I actually modded alphax.txt so:

#MORALE
Conscript, Hatchling
Green, Larval Mass
Disciplined, Pre-Boil
Experienced, Mature Boil
Veteran, Great Boil
Commando, Demon Boil
Elite, Nightmare

Since I included the native morale due to laziness, I feel I have to explain the mod there, and the explanation basically goes: "Boil->Mature Boil?? WTH, aren't those the same thing?"

Anyway, I think this would be easier to use with SE than Civics, as then you could script the Morale chart something like:

#SOCMORALE
-4: Conscript morale, +30% XP needed for Unit Promotions
-3: Conscript morale, +20% XP needed for Unit Promotions
-2: Conscript morale, +10% XP needed for Unit Promotions
-1: Conscript morale
0: Green morale
+1: Disciplined morale
+2: Disciplined morale, free Combat I promotion while inside factional boundaries
+3: Experienced morale, free Combat I promotion while inside factional boundaries
+4: Veteran morale, free Combat I promotion while inside factional boundaries

Obvious alternatives to the "free Combat I at home" idea would be "free Garrison I" or "-X0% XP to promote".

 

[Duneflower]

Seperate post because it's mostly unrelated to my other post...

I had an idea the other day for a new SA, basically to replicate Scout functions:

Sensor Pod: +1 Visibility radius, better results from Unity Pods, +50% vs. Native Lifeforms

 

[Maniac]

Hypnotic Trance gives better Unity pod results and +25% psi defense.

 

[Duneflower]

*headscratch* Okay...I gotta ask. Why would Trance give better results from Unity Pods? o.O